Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

If that doesn't work it has...

• French Sagem MATIS LR midwave thermal imager with WFOV of 4.17° x 6.25°, and NFOV of 0.87° x 1.3°, with a 0.05 mrad angular track error;
• Acquisition performance: F-16 at 17 to 26 km; AGM-88 HARM at 13 to 15 km; cruise missiles at 11 to 14 km, and glidebombs at ~10 km;

So Pantsir can detect a 1m² target at 30km, not a 2cm² one !

 

[BON PLAN]

I do know that Pantsir radar can detect 2sqcm radar target from 30km track it from 24km.

2cm² target is detected at... some small kilometers.

 

[Armand2REP]

So Pantsir can detect a 1m² target at 30km, not a 2cm² one !

The radar is more for early warning and then the French optics zero in guiding the guns and radio command guided missiles to the target. It really is the deadliest system for VSHORAD.

 

[smestarz]

Why not? How many countries are there which have S-400 in quantity? And how many of those the French might have issue with? Turkey? Syria.. protected by Russia?

As a matter of Fact, France was on the side that wanted to get rid of Assad and suddenly when the Russians came to play with S-400 and Su-30 SM the French ensured that they kept out of the Russian way.
If the French had an understanding like the way you said. the French would have not changed the routes of their flights.

I thought you are intelligent, but it seems not
It is true Turkey is a NATO country but Turkey is not getting the top of the line weapons. Turkey as you know had a coup and the turkish leadership believes that there was American hand in that (also a NATO country)
Turkey does not want to depend purely on NATO weapons as of course the Americans know how to bypass them as those are also made by Americans (example kill switch in F-35 !!)

As of now, Turkey has more threat from NATO countries than from Russia, The Russians have been very clear in their views. Thus the Turks want to be sure that if there are American or NATO planes trying some mischief against Turkey, they have hardware with which they can counter them.

Also if you have that logic, would the Russians not wonder as to why should they sell their top of the line system to Turkey so that the NATO can find solution against it? Dont you think they analyzed part of this game?

Turkey is not afraid of French attack.,The French do not have the ability or strength to attack Turkey, but yes the Americans have and can, With Two carriers in the Gulf, the Americans can have more than 400 planes at its disposal from the carriers and from other land bases in Europe and Asia to take down turkey.

Either you are naive or just dont see the logic !!

a) Why does Russia have to be the target? They are not the only ones operating S-300/400. India certainly isn't going to take their Rafale against them. France is friendly with them. If we had a limited operation in say Syria, we could take Russia out in that region, fairly easily. If France did get into a shooting war with Russia we would have the full backing of NATO which would mean Russians lose.

b) Turkey is a member of NATO and the integrated air defence. They are only buying S-400 because NATO wants it to train against. As soon as they signed that deal they signed an LRSAM development contract with France, a country they hate for recognizing Armenian genocide.

c) If Turkey was so afraid of a French air attack, they wouldn't hire us to develop their future LRSAM.

 

[Flame Thrower]

@Armand2REP & @BON PLAN you guys are correct.

The data was for 2sqm not sqcm.

 

[Immanuel]

If the battery is protected by Panstyr I agree that saturation attacks are not going to be successful, however it is only Russia that uses this system in conjunction with it. Scalp is a VLO terrain hugging cruise missile, it will escape detection until the last few kms. Only short range systems with IR are going to see it at night and will be under the engagement umbrella of S-400 when it does detect it. Rafale could try to do a penetration strike with terrain hugging flight profile and launch AASM pop-up mode behind a hill-top but that is risky on where that hill/mountain might be. It just depends on how good the V/SHORAD of the enemy using S-400 really is. Rafale has proven itself against Slovak S-300PMU as the only aircraft at MACE XIII able to spoof it. Thanks to Turkey we will be able to update the waveform library on S-400 and spoof that too.

Scalp is a easy target for 9M96E/ E2 missiles which can be deployed by the S-400 itself and can destroy such cruise missiles at a long enough range to prevent Pantsirs being hit. Spoofing the S-400 in a real combat scenario will be highly unlikely since firstly the big bird won't even be where you think it is going to be, it too can pop up and screw anyone well within engagement zones, sames goes for the Pantsir.

I am not saying S-400 is impossible to defeat but the cost of it will be you'll atleast loose 2-3 sqds while many being shot down by SAMs and few lost to A2A battles.

 

[Immanuel]

It's only your point of view.
I'm not sure you can detect, engage and destroy a SCALP, stealthy, maybe with counter measures (inside of from fighters) and flying low profile.

It will be easy to detect on any modern day AWACS including the A-50 and a pop-up Buk or Sosna or Pantsir can destroy it let alone the S-400.

 

[Armand2REP]

Why not? How many countries are there which have S-400 in quantity? And how many of those the French might have issue with? Turkey? Syria.. protected by Russia?

Algeria is the first to come to mind. With them only 500 miles from our airspace a system like S-400 could cause massive problems. There are several scenarios for a match with China and there is plenty of talk for Iran to get it.

As a matter of Fact, France was on the side that wanted to get rid of Assad and suddenly when the Russians came to play with S-400 and Su-30 SM the French ensured that they kept out of the Russian way.
If the French had an understanding like the way you said. the French would have not changed the routes of their flights.

There was a little issue of Daesch which was of greater urgency. Priorities do matter and a little tin-pot dictator doesn't rise above terrorists attacking your shores. A former enemy turned into a reluctant ally in the fight.

I thought you are intelligent, but it seems not
It is true Turkey is a NATO country but Turkey is not getting the top of the line weapons. Turkey as you know had a coup and the turkish leadership believes that there was American hand in that (also a NATO country)
Turkey does not want to depend purely on NATO weapons as of course the Americans know how to bypass them as those are also made by Americans (example kill switch in F-35 !!)

Did Erdogan ever say he wanted to leave NATO? That is news to me if he did. The fact he signed a long term SAM deal with France rather supersedes any notion he was going Russian.

As of now, Turkey has more threat from NATO countries than from Russia, The Russians have been very clear in their views. Thus the Turks want to be sure that if there are American or NATO planes trying some mischief against Turkey, they have hardware with which they can counter them.

To think the Turks would leave NATO and join Russia when Turkey is shooting down Russian planes... do I need to say more?

Also if you have that logic, would the Russians not wonder as to why should they sell their top of the line system to Turkey so that the NATO can find solution against it? Dont you think they analyzed part of this game?

When they sold S-300 to Cyprus it was top of the line at the time and we ended up training against it. If they did it before why not do it again?

Turkey is not afraid of French attack.,The French do not have the ability or strength to attack Turkey, but yes the Americans have and can, With Two carriers in the Gulf, the Americans can have more than 400 planes at its disposal from the carriers and from other land bases in Europe and Asia to take down turkey.

The only way France would attack Turkey is if they start a war with Greece. The ramifications of that is the end of Turkey so it will never happen.

Either you are naive or just dont see the logic !!

Seriously read my response to this. There is logic in my words.

 

[asianobserve]

Don't just say it plainly. Give me a scenario.

You've also missed point defense in your explanation.

I am not sure of how stealthy JASSM is but I do know that Pantsir radar can detect 2sqcm radar target from 30km track it from 24km.

Next time include Pantsir and S 300/400 batteries with 9M6E2 missiles along with Multiple radas from IADS. Don't forget to add BuK systems.

Coming to Jamming, how would you jam S-400's VHF radar(s). As far as I read, it's kind hard to jam or decoy a VHF radar. How would you plan to inject virus into IADS. Would you care to explain.

Funny thing about saturation attack is everyone fail to understand the amount of weapons that would require to destroy the SAM system. Especially when you're enemy is fully prepared for large scale saturation attacks. And how long and how many saturation attacks can invading force perform.

Remember the Israeli Air Force attack on Syrian S-200 SAM in Damascus in October 16, 2017? That facility was secured by Pantsir and the SAA were joined by Russian advisers. Yet Israeli F-16s successfully destroyed the Syrian battery. So Pantsir is not fool proof.

As to Su-30s or Su-35s will any strike package against SAM sites will be protected by F-22, F-35, F-15, EF and even Rafale.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Anyone here analysing how many S400 India will get and what will be the Paki counter to it?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[smestarz]

I doubt that France might seriously get involved in Algeria and perhaps they are well adviced not to do that,
France has a lot of Algerian population and any mischief in Algeria now might cost France hugely.

Algeria is the first to come to mind. With them only 500 miles from our airspace a system like S-400 could cause massive problems. There are several scenarios for a match with China and there is plenty of talk for Iran to get it.
.

ISIS does not have S-400 if you remember
.

There was a little issue of Daesch which was of greater urgency. Priorities do matter and a little tin-pot dictator doesn't rise above terrorists attacking your shores. A former enemy turned into a reluctant ally in the fight.
.

At present what is in a way saving Erdogan is that Turkey is part of NATO, but it is very clear to Turkey that the coup more than a year back had American blessings., Thus it makes sense to prepare one selves.
IF you know Americans want to overthrow you, would you depend on American defence protection or try to get weapons that might help in case the Americans have thoughts
France though signed with Turkey, but France is known to toe the American line.. not really much France can do. Would you go against the Americans if Americans want to go against Turkey?
I think France in that case will prefer to abstain.. very similar to how France did not deliver the Exocet missiles to Argentina during Falkland wars.

.

Did Erdogan ever say he wanted to leave NATO? That is news to me if he did. The fact he signed a long term SAM deal with France rather supersedes any notion he was going Russian.
.

Turks wont leave NATO, they dont have benefit to leave it, rather it protects them also, but on other hand they wont depend on NATO. During the Syrian conflict it was clear
The turks attacked the russian plane and then they kissed and made up
The turks are anti YPG and maybe pro ISIS. The Americans and NATO are pro YPG with YPG having American advisors and Anti ISIS (at least for that moment) So you see the interests are not really common.
For Russia there is clarity, anyone who is Anti Assad, is their enemy. So thus there is common ground for Russia and Syria,

.

To think the Turks would leave NATO and join Russia when Turkey is shooting down Russian planes... do I need to say more?
.

The Turks had threatened Cyprus with War if they did not take out the S-300 and then those were given to Greece I think. Greece is totally dependent on NATO and have no threat of being attacked by NATO COUNTRIES., But on other hand, Turkey is seeing the intervention of some NATO ally in their internal matters

.

When they sold S-300 to Cyprus it was top of the line at the time and we ended up training against it. If they did it before why not do it again?
.

France wont attack Turkey, it would prefer to Abstain, but what about America, would France go against Americans if they went against Turkey? Give it a thought
.

The only way France would attack Turkey is if they start a war with Greece. The ramifications of that is the end of Turkey so it will never happen.

Seriously read my response to this. There is logic in my words.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Remember the Israeli Air Force attack on Syrian S-200 SAM in Damascus in October 16, 2017? That facility was secured by Pantsir and the SAA were joined by Russian advisers. Yet Israeli F-16s successfully destroyed the Syrian battery. So Pantsir is not fool proof.

As to Su-30s or Su-35s will any strike package against SAM sites will be protected by F-22, F-35, F-15, EF and even Rafale.

Syrian S 200 was destroyed. There were no reports of Pantsir Sams protecting S 200 battery or Damascus.

If you have the link, then please do post it.

Funny part is during the similar timelines Syrians claimed a hit on Isreali F 35. While Isreali agreed that one of their aircraft was damaged by a bird, but refused to show the damaged F 35 to press.

Now coming to Russian deployment, as far as I know only Latakia and Khmeimim airbase has protection of S-300/400 and Pantsir systems.

 

[Armand2REP]

I doubt that France might seriously get involved in Algeria and perhaps they are well adviced not to do that,
France has a lot of Algerian population and any mischief in Algeria now might cost France hugely.

If Algeria threatens French airspace it will be dealt with accordingly.

ISIS does not have S-400 if you remember

Syria didn't drive trucks into crowded French streets if you remember.

At present what is in a way saving Erdogan is that Turkey is part of NATO, but it is very clear to Turkey that the coup more than a year back had American blessings., Thus it makes sense to prepare one selves.
IF you know Americans want to overthrow you, would you depend on American defence protection or try to get weapons that might help in case the Americans have thoughts
France though signed with Turkey, but France is known to toe the American line.. not really much France can do. Would you go against the Americans if Americans want to go against Turkey?
I think France in that case will prefer to abstain.. very similar to how France did not deliver the Exocet missiles to Argentina during Falkland wars.

That coup was staged by Erdogan to make the excuse for removing dissidents. The last thing Obama wanted to do was destablise his Muslim allies. He didn't even want to go into Libya but the French air strikes forced his hand. Even then he took a back seat to French leadership to save the people of Benghazi from massacre.

France has its own foreign policy separate from the United States which it has demonstrated time and time again. We forced the campaign in Libya and went it alone to save Mali. It has been France dictating NATO foreign policy for many years now as Obama showed a weakness in leadership. Trump has refrained from starting WWIII so it remains to be seen where we go from here.

We stopped delivery of Exocets because the UK was our closest ally, now it is Germany after Brexit.

Turks wont leave NATO, they dont have benefit to leave it, rather it protects them also, but on other hand they wont depend on NATO. During the Syrian conflict it was clear
The turks attacked the russian plane and then they kissed and made up
The turks are anti YPG and maybe pro ISIS. The Americans and NATO are pro YPG with YPG having American advisors and Anti ISIS (at least for that moment) So you see the interests are not really common.
For Russia there is clarity, anyone who is Anti Assad, is their enemy. So thus there is common ground for Russia and Syria,

Turks shot down the Russian fighter because it violated their airspace. Even a Greek fighter will get more warning than the Russians were given to exit. If Turks treat their mortal Greek enemies with more courtesy than Russians I doubt they will be leaving the NATO camp anytime soon. Turks are definitely anti-Kurd but Daesch has also attacked Istanbul.

The Turks had threatened Cyprus with War if they did not take out the S-300 and then those were given to Greece I think. Greece is totally dependent on NATO and have no threat of being attacked by NATO COUNTRIES., But on other hand, Turkey is seeing the intervention of some NATO ally in their internal matters

Cyprus is far closer to Russia than Turkey. It is neither a member of NATO or the PIP and sources most of it's defence products from Russia. This is another area of contention that would keep any Russia/Turkey partnership from taking place. The removal of S-300 was a political solution as Turkey begged the United States to broker the deal. They new that if they had to attack it with their outdated F-16s they would be slaughtered.

France wont attack Turkey, it would prefer to Abstain, but what about America, would France go against Americans if they went against Turkey? Give it a thought.

If Turkey is attacking Greece, France will intervene. If it is any other matter France will not get involved.

 

[Flame Thrower]

@Armand2REP I agree with most of your post except Turks and Russian part.

Maybe Erdogan himself staged coup to get public support. or maybe not, but we'll never know.

Coming to Turkey downing Russian bomber, it was over two years ago. Nevertheless, first Russian fighter being downed by NATO forces since Korean war(if I remember correctly). Erdogan and Putin had come very long way. I think you need to focus more on Syrian war. Things have changed a lot. The way I see it.... Syria, Iran, Russia and Turkey had formed a mini alliance, everyone has their interests.

American support to Kurds is the main reason for Ankara to work with Moscow. Ankara believes that any existence of Strong Kurdish state in the region will force opressed Kurds from Turkey demanding a separate state and thus destroying the integrity of Turkey.

America wanted a strong leverage over Turkey to limit the relationship between Turkey and Russia. They thought Kurds might be a good option, but unfortunately it was too much for Turkey.

From Turkey'' point of view, I'd say that America crossed the red line by playing Kurds card.

Once Idilib and rest of the pockets in Syria falls; Turkey cleaning up western pocket of YPG and Iraqis sorting the their own Kurdish mess, I see that YPG forces would fall like a pack of cards. Anyways it's going to happen, maybe not in 2018, or at least I think so.

At the end if the day, all I wanna say is Turkey is more closer to Russia than America. Agree that, Turkey can always jump back, but given the issue of Kurds, as long as Americans support Kurds, or any form of Kurdish state exists, I don't think Turkey would play to US tunes, at least not under Erdogan.

Thus I rest my case

 

[Flame Thrower]

This is Rafale's thread and we're discussing everything else.

 

[BON PLAN]

Scalp is a easy target for 9M96E/ E2 missiles which can be deployed by the S-400 itself and can destroy such cruise missiles at a long enough range to prevent Pantsirs being hit. .

Yes, these missile can hit them....

... if only they can track it ! And they fly low, and are VLO.

If as some say, a F22 as a RCS of some cm², just imagine those of a SCALP....

 

[BON PLAN]

It will be easy to detect on any modern day AWACS including the A-50 and a pop-up Buk or Sosna or Pantsir can destroy it let alone the S-400.

A50 is all but modern my dear.

 

[BON PLAN]

I doubt that France might seriously get involved in Algeria and perhaps they are well adviced not to do that,
France has a lot of Algerian population and any mischief in Algeria now might cost France hugely.

between 7% to 10% nearly of the french population.... not so impressiv !

Some real old french would be happy to have a revenge.... since algerian war...

 

[Armand2REP]

@Armand2REP I agree with most of your post except Turks and Russian part.

Maybe Erdogan himself staged coup to get public support. or maybe not, but we'll never know.

Coming to Turkey downing Russian bomber, it was over two years ago. Nevertheless, first Russian fighter being downed by NATO forces since Korean war(if I remember correctly). Erdogan and Putin had come very long way. I think you need to focus more on Syrian war. Things have changed a lot. The way I see it.... Syria, Iran, Russia and Turkey had formed a mini alliance, everyone has their interests.

If you can remember back when FSA was taking Aleppo it was Turkey that was letting them operate across the border and supporting them with supplies. It was Erdogan that ordered the Su-24 of RuAF shot down. There is no alliance I can see between these actions that are neither pro-Russian or Pro-Assad.

American support to Kurds is the main reason for Ankara to work with Moscow. Ankara believes that any existence of Strong Kurdish state in the region will force opressed Kurds from Turkey demanding a separate state and thus destroying the integrity of Turkey.

What work has there been between Ankara and Moscow? Russia has not acknowledge the PKK as a terrorist organisation while every member of NATO has. To the contrary they allow them to conduct fund raising and supply with weapons from foreign donations. There is a good reason PKK is armed with AK-47s and RPGs.

America wanted a strong leverage over Turkey to limit the relationship between Turkey and Russia. They thought Kurds might be a good option, but unfortunately it was too much for Turkey.

America has plenty of leverage over Turkey, without them they wouldn't have an air force or an aerospace industry.

From Turkey'' point of view, I'd say that America crossed the red line by playing Kurds card.

That wasn't the reason for Americans playing with Kurds, it was to defeat Daesch without using ground troops.

Once Idilib and rest of the pockets in Syria falls; Turkey cleaning up western pocket of YPG and Iraqis sorting the their own Kurdish mess, I see that YPG forces would fall like a pack of cards. Anyways it's going to happen, maybe not in 2018, or at least I think so.

With the defeat of Daesch complete the Kurds will not be supplied, with limited ammo any kind of offence would quickly see them run out of ammo. They can't very well continue an insurgency with rocks.

At the end if the day, all I wanna say is Turkey is more closer to Russia than America. Agree that, Turkey can always jump back, but given the issue of Kurds, as long as Americans support Kurds, or any form of Kurdish state exists, I don't think Turkey would play to US tunes, at least not under Erdogan.

Turkey does not like Americans playing with Kurds. It is a temporary situation that is nothing when the Americans withdraw. It does not effect the geo-political position of Turkey.

This is Rafale's thread and we're discussing everything else.

Doesn't bother me. I have enjoyed the freedom of the thread without getting everything deleted. The discussion is quality. There is not much else happening since Modi Rafale scandal turned into nothing.

 

[asianobserve]

Syrian S 200 was destroyed. There were no reports of Pantsir Sams protecting S 200 battery or Damascus.

If you have the link, then please do post it.

Funny part is during the similar timelines Syrians claimed a hit on Isreali F 35. While Isreali agreed that one of their aircraft was damaged by a bird, but refused to show the damaged F 35 to press.

Now coming to Russian deployment, as far as I know only Latakia and Khmeimim airbase has protection of S-300/400 and Pantsir systems.

That target was in Damascus which is where Syrian integrated SAMs are mostly concentrated. Both Syria and Russia operate Pantsir and Buk 2MEs in conjunction with S-200, S-300 and S-400 SAMs inside Syria. Also you must remember that prior to Oct. 16 Israeli attack the Syrians and Russians have networked their multi-layer SAM systems in reaction to American cruise missile attack at Al Shyrat air base. In fact, the Syrian-Russian network is allegedly controlled by Russians in Khmeimim airbase.

Anyway, here are Israeli and American articles on that Oct. 16 attack:

Israeli Military Exposes Vulnerabilities in Joint Russian-Syrian Air Defense

On October 16, the Israeli Air Force launched a precision attack, in the Damascus area, against a Russian-supplied S-200 air-defense battery under the control of the Syrian Arab Army (SAA). The aerial raid was conducted partly in response to a March incident involving its aircraft being targeted by air-defense assets in Syria (Gazeta, October 16). The Israeli operation, reportedly successful, was met with a muted response in both Russian and Syrian media, perhaps linked to the attack coinciding with the bilateral meeting, in Tel Aviv, of Russia’s Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman (see EDM, October 17). Indeed, the coverage and rhetoric in response to the attack on the S-200 battery contrasted sharply with reporting on earlier incidents involving the Israeli Air Force operating in Syria (Riafan.ru, October 16).

https://jamestown.org/program/israe...erabilities-joint-russian-syrian-air-defense/

Why Russian-made Air Defense Missiles Missed Israeli Raiders

In the last fortnight, missiles fired by Syria’s Russian-made air defense systems twice missed hitting Israeli air force planes – the first time on Oct. 16, when Israeli planes flew over Lebanon, and the second time on Wednesday, Nov. 1, when Israeli jets were reported to have struck Syrian military targets near Homs.

These incidents gave Western and Russian military experts their first glimpse of some of the aerial tactics employed by Israel, and also some of the operational flaws inherent in the Russian-Syrian air defense network spread out across Syria.

https://www.debka.com/russian-made-air-defense-missiles-miss-israel-air-force-raiders/

Interestingly, these articles say that Israel used the F-35 together with F-15 and F-16 for this attack.