Know Your 'Rafale'

[Flame Thrower]

I think that point defense sams like Pantsir series are being ignored in Raethon video.

When there is an attack simulation on S 300/400, people bring all kinds of NATO magic weapons but they tend to forget the point defenses employed by Pantsir. Wish someone add Pantsir in the next simulation attack on S 300/400

 

[BON PLAN]

I think that point defense sams like Pantsir series are being ignored in Raethon video.

When there is an attack simulation on S 300/400, people bring all kinds of NATO magic weapons but they tend to forget the point defenses employed by Pantsir. Wish someone add Pantsir in the next simulation attack on S 300/400

A simulation was made 2 years ago by french air force, under the scrutiny of the DM JY Le Drian.
Some Rafale attacking a S400 batteries, surrounded by S300 and all short protected by Pantsir.

They used SCALP and AASM. They succeed.

If I remember well, a first huge salvo of AASM was used to force the battery to use all its missile (2 missiles for each AASM to be sure they were shoot). A second salvo destroyed the battery during recompletion.
Don't remember what was the use of SCALP. But they were used.

 

[Flame Thrower]

A simulation was made 2 years ago by french air force, under the scrutiny of the DM JY Le Drian.
Some Rafale attacking a S400 batteries, surrounded by S300 and all short protected by Pantsir.

They used SCALP and AASM. They succeed.

If I remember well, a first huge salvo of AASM was used to force the battery to use all its missile (2 missiles for each AASM to be sure they were shoot). A second salvo destroyed the battery during recompletion.
Don't remember what was the use of SCALP. But they were used.

.

Yes, first saturate the point defense. If 3 Pantsir are guarding one VHF radar, then first salvo of 18 scalps should be fired just to saturate the point defense. 6 more in the next salvo as you have to count six 30 mm guns each with 750 rounds.

So if all goes well, then 24 scalps for one isolated VHF protected by 3 pantsirs. Add 2 more to destroy HVT. It takes 26 Scalps to destroy one S 400 VHF radar and 3 pantsirs. I've deliberately ignored 9M96e2 missiles to reduce the complexity.

But if there is no sam, then it would require 2 Scalps to destroy HVT and no SEAD operations

Adding one S 400 with 3 pantsirs had resulted in 13 times of increased Scalp usage, so is the no of aircraft operated. Thus increasing the complexity and failure of mission.

If I remember correctly, Russians had foreseen the saturation attacks. They have come up with a different solution i.e. IADS(around 2008 or so). I do agree that even IADS will not guarantee the invincibility on the battlefield. But the cost to take down one S-400 would increase exponentially.

Now add the quick deployment feature of S 400 and other Russian SAM systems. I hope you've read about Kosovo war and how SAM systems slowed down US operations. Imagine equally trained enemy operating mix of S 300/400 with BuK and Pantsir systems. Enemy military planners would face serious pressure to plan their missions, not to mention risk and effect of morale when fighters.

 

[BON PLAN]

.

Yes, first saturate the point defense. If 3 Pantsir are guarding one VHF radar, then first salvo of 18 scalps should be fired just to saturate the point defense. 6 more in the next salvo as you have to count six 30 mm guns each with 750 rounds.

So if all goes well, then 24 scalps for one isolated VHF protected by 3 pantsirs. Add 2 more to destroy HVT. It takes 26 Scalps to destroy one S 400 VHF radar and 3 pantsirs. I've deliberately ignored 9M96e2 missiles to reduce the complexity.

But if there is no sam, then it would require 2 Scalps to destroy HVT and no SEAD operations

Adding one S 400 with 3 pantsirs had resulted in 13 times of increased Scalp usage, so is the no of aircraft operated. Thus increasing the complexity and failure of mission.

If I remember correctly, Russians had foreseen the saturation attacks. They have come up with a different solution i.e. IADS(around 2008 or so). I do agree that even IADS will not guarantee the invincibility on the battlefield. But the cost to take down one S-400 would increase exponentially.

Now add the quick deployment feature of S 400 and other Russian SAM systems. I hope you've read about Kosovo war and how SAM systems slowed down US operations. Imagine equally trained enemy operating mix of S 300/400 with BuK and Pantsir systems. Enemy military planners would face serious pressure to plan their missions, not to mention risk and effect of morale when fighters.

They didn't use so many SCALP ! ($$$$)

 

[Flame Thrower]

They didn't use so many SCALP ! ($$$$)

That's the point.

The aim of S 300/400 and IADS is to increase the cost exponentially (even by American standards)

 

[gadeshi]

They didn't use so many SCALP ! ($$$$)

SCALP is huge sized slow subsonic slag with no maneuverability and poor range.
It cannot be used against modern SAMs at all.

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[Armand2REP]

SCALP is huge sized slow subsonic slag with no maneuverability and poor range.
It cannot be used against modern SAMs at all.

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Since when does 500km equal poor range? Since when does a missile need great maneuverability to hit a stationary target?

You are right that they are too expensive for saturation attacks, that is why we are developing the Smartglider family of stand-off weapons.

 

[asianobserve]

.

If I remember correctly, Russians had foreseen the saturation attacks. They have come up with a different solution i.e. IADS(around 2008 or so). I do agree that even IADS will not guarantee the invincibility on the battlefield. But the cost to take down one S-400 would increase exponentially.

Now add the quick deployment feature of S 400 and other Russian SAM systems. I hope you've read about Kosovo war and how SAM systems slowed down US operations. Imagine equally trained enemy operating mix of S 300/400 with BuK and Pantsir systems. Enemy military planners would face serious pressure to plan their missions, not to mention risk and effect of morale when fighters.

The first wave of attack against modern SAM sites most likely will not be kinetic, it will be EW or virus to seize control of the radars, trick or jam it.

Followed by saturation attack by Tomahawk cruise missiles to both disable known radar sites and force AD operators to turn on secondary SAMs. Stealthy JASSM can also be used to attack high value radar sites. Then next wave will be a mix of B-2 (or B-21 in the future), F-35, MALDs (as decoys or EW), suicide drones, Growlers, F-16CJ, Tornados and B-1s acting as bomb and cruise missile trucks from stand-off distance. Every time a radar turns on it will be supressed.

The primary SEAD weapon of choice after saturation cruise missile attack will be AARGM. Within seconds from the time ground radars are turned on SEAD planes will launch AARGM. SEAD forces can also resort to shorter range A2G missiles, SDBs, glide bombs to go after point defense radars that dares to turn on.

To conserve their AD assets, red forces will restrict turning on their radars much like what the Serbs did in 1999. This alone is already a tactical advantage for the attacking force.

It will depend on who is using SAM systems. If it is the Russians they can definitely mount a robust defense (not insurmountable but attacking them will cost a lot of coalition assets). But any lesser operator will easily be clobbered into ceding the airspace and resorting to hit and run tactics or Hail Mary SAM launchings.

 

[Flame Thrower]

The first wave of attack against modern SAM sites most likely will not be kinetic, it will be EW or virus to seize control of the radars, trick or jam it.

Followed by saturation attack by Tomahawk cruise missiles to both disable known radar sites and force AD operators to turn on secondary SAMs. Stealthy JASSM can also be used to attack high value radar sites. Then next wave will be a mix of B-2 (or B-21 in the future), F-35, MALDs (as decoys or EW), suicide drones, Growlers, F-16CJ, Tornados and B-1s acting as bomb and cruise missile trucks from stand-off distance. Every time a radar turns on it will be supressed.

The primary SEAD weapon of choice after saturation cruise missile attack will be AARGM. Within seconds from the time ground radars are turned on SEAD planes will launch AARGM. SEAD forces can also resort to shorter range A2G missiles, SDBs, glide bombs to go after point defense radars that dares to turn on.

To conserve their AD assets, red forces will restrict turning on their radars much like what the Serbs did in 1999. This alone is already a tactical advantage for the attacking force.

It will depend on who is using SAM systems. If it is the Russians they can definitely mount a robust defense (not insurmountable but attacking them will cost a lot of coalition assets). But any lesser operator will easily be clobbered into ceding the airspace and resorting to hit and run tactics or Hail Mary SAM launchings.

Don't just say it plainly. Give me a scenario.

You've also missed point defense in your explanation.

I am not sure of how stealthy JASSM is but I do know that Pantsir radar can detect 2sqcm radar target from 30km track it from 24km.

Next time include Pantsir and S 300/400 batteries with 9M6E2 missiles along with Multiple radas from IADS. Don't forget to add BuK systems.

Coming to Jamming, how would you jam S-400's VHF radar(s). As far as I read, it's kind hard to jam or decoy a VHF radar. How would you plan to inject virus into IADS. Would you care to explain.

Funny thing about saturation attack is everyone fail to understand the amount of weapons that would require to destroy the SAM system. Especially when you're enemy is fully prepared for large scale saturation attacks. And how long and how many saturation attacks can invading force perform.

 

[Immanuel]

A typical S-400 regiment firstly has between 2-4 battalions each with 4 fire units each 4 launchers, is spread out over a wide area (a battalion can be 100 km away from the Regiment's Command center.) Has a regiment of pop up Pantsir-S1 which half the time you can't detect because they can pop up.

The Big bird and Grave stone radars are highly jam proof, have very long detection ranges even for low RCS targets. Saturation attacks are an idea but to take down a regiment of S-400 one needs to be willing to sacrifice around 2-3 squadrons of fighters + plus associated weapons. Subsonic cruise missiles such as SCALP and PGMs like AASM are useless. All the while we assume the counter force isn't deploying it's fighters like the advanced Flankers, Fulcrums, Any fight between these and any other 4 or 4.5 gen fighter is a toss up. F-22s and F-35s might have better chances penetrating the S-400's shield but even that is suicidal mission that has no guarantees of success. However if a F-22 or F-35 does slip through to get close enough, a bomb like the CBU-105SFW would cause havoc on ground vehicles of the regiment. HARM-E does have a chance too and it would have to be part of the saturation attacks.

Only high speed super sonic missiles have a better chance of taking down parts of the regiment and that too with lot of missiles being deployed, since for now the West doesn't have such weapons, the S-400's ferocity will remain till some serious weapons come along.

 

[Armand2REP]

A typical S-400 regiment firstly has between 2-4 battalions each with 4 fire units each 4 launchers, is spread out over a wide area (a battalion can be 100 km away from the Regiment's Command center.) Has a regiment of pop up Pantsir-S1 which half the time you can't detect because they can pop up.

The Big bird and Grave stone radars are highly jam proof, have very long detection ranges even for low RCS targets. Saturation attacks are an idea but to take down a regiment of S-400 one needs to be willing to sacrifice around 2-3 squadrons of fighters + plus associated weapons. Subsonic cruise missiles such as SCALP and PGMs like AASM are useless. All the while we assume the counter force isn't deploying it's fighters like the advanced Flankers, Fulcrums, Any fight between these and any other 4 or 4.5 gen fighter is a toss up. F-22s and F-35s might have better chances penetrating the S-400's shield but even that is suicidal mission that has no guarantees of success. However if a F-22 or F-35 does slip through to get close enough, a bomb like the CBU-105SFW would cause havoc on ground vehicles of the regiment. HARM-E does have a chance too and it would have to be part of the saturation attacks.

Only high speed super sonic missiles have a better chance of taking down parts of the regiment and that too with lot of missiles being deployed, since for now the West doesn't have such weapons, the S-400's ferocity will remain till some serious weapons come along.

If the battery is protected by Panstyr I agree that saturation attacks are not going to be successful, however it is only Russia that uses this system in conjunction with it. Scalp is a VLO terrain hugging cruise missile, it will escape detection until the last few kms. Only short range systems with IR are going to see it at night and will be under the engagement umbrella of S-400 when it does detect it. Rafale could try to do a penetration strike with terrain hugging flight profile and launch AASM pop-up mode behind a hill-top but that is risky on where that hill/mountain might be. It just depends on how good the V/SHORAD of the enemy using S-400 really is. Rafale has proven itself against Slovak S-300PMU as the only aircraft at MACE XIII able to spoof it. Thanks to Turkey we will be able to update the waveform library on S-400 and spoof that too.

 

[smestarz]

Your scenario is wonderful, and while all of this happens, Su-30 SM Su-35 and Su-57 should be lazing in their warm hangars right?

Your scenario have one big flaw, that the Russian airforce leaves the SAM sites to hang dry?
Or the Russians simply send their air force for vacation assuming that SAM sites can handle themselves?

The first wave of attack against modern SAM sites most likely will not be kinetic, it will be EW or virus to seize control of the radars, trick or jam it.

Followed by saturation attack by Tomahawk cruise missiles to both disable known radar sites and force AD operators to turn on secondary SAMs. Stealthy JASSM can also be used to attack high value radar sites. Then next wave will be a mix of B-2 (or B-21 in the future), F-35, MALDs (as decoys or EW), suicide drones, Growlers, F-16CJ, Tornados and B-1s acting as bomb and cruise missile trucks from stand-off distance. Every time a radar turns on it will be supressed.

The primary SEAD weapon of choice after saturation cruise missile attack will be AARGM. Within seconds from the time ground radars are turned on SEAD planes will launch AARGM. SEAD forces can also resort to shorter range A2G missiles, SDBs, glide bombs to go after point defense radars that dares to turn on.

To conserve their AD assets, red forces will restrict turning on their radars much like what the Serbs did in 1999. This alone is already a tactical advantage for the attacking force.

It will depend on who is using SAM systems. If it is the Russians they can definitely mount a robust defense (not insurmountable but attacking them will cost a lot of coalition assets). But any lesser operator will easily be clobbered into ceding the airspace and resorting to hit and run tactics or Hail Mary SAM launchings.

 

[smestarz]

Few problems with your scenario
a) Your concept totally ignroes RuAF with their Su-30 SM , Su-35 and Su-57 which can and will hump Rafale like it was weekend.
b) Why would Turkey offer you the library for weapons that IT NEEDS FOR ITS OWN PROTECTION,
Turkey is not really that close to Europe as of now, and it would be might stupid of turkey if they decide to update the French library for S-400 missiles which the Turks depend on their air defence.,
IF done that then what does Turkey have itself to protect with? Its the next Libya !!!
If you are General would you pass your secret on which your very existent might depend and share it?
I would not.

If the battery is protected by Panstyr I agree that saturation attacks are not going to be successful, however it is only Russia that uses this system in conjunction with it. Scalp is a VLO terrain hugging cruise missile, it will escape detection until the last few kms. Only short range systems with IR are going to see it at night and will be under the engagement umbrella of S-400 when it does detect it. Rafale could try to do a penetration strike with terrain hugging flight profile and launch AASM pop-up mode behind a hill-top but that is risky on where that hill/mountain might be. It just depends on how good the V/SHORAD of the enemy using S-400 really is. Rafale has proven itself against Slovak S-300PMU as the only aircraft at MACE XIII able to spoof it. Thanks to Turkey we will be able to update the waveform library on S-400 and spoof that too.

 

[smestarz]

In case people are wondering, in this scenario, surely the attacking force if it does not complete its objectives, the losses will certainly effect its economy badly with say few billion dollars lost on Day 01

 

[Armand2REP]

Few problems with your scenario
a) Your concept totally ignroes RuAF with their Su-30 SM , Su-35 and Su-57 which can and will hump Rafale like it was weekend.
b) Why would Turkey offer you the library for weapons that IT NEEDS FOR ITS OWN PROTECTION,
Turkey is not really that close to Europe as of now, and it would be might stupid of turkey if they decide to update the French library for S-400 missiles which the Turks depend on their air defence.,
IF done that then what does Turkey have itself to protect with? Its the next Libya !!!
If you are General would you pass your secret on which your very existent might depend and share it?
I would not.

a) Why does Russia have to be the target? They are not the only ones operating S-300/400. India certainly isn't going to take their Rafale against them. France is friendly with them. If we had a limited operation in say Syria, we could take Russia out in that region, fairly easily. If France did get into a shooting war with Russia we would have the full backing of NATO which would mean Russians lose.

b) Turkey is a member of NATO and the integrated air defence. They are only buying S-400 because NATO wants it to train against. As soon as they signed that deal they signed an LRSAM development contract with France, a country they hate for recognizing Armenian genocide.

c) If Turkey was so afraid of a French air attack, they wouldn't hire us to develop their future LRSAM.

 

[BON PLAN]

SCALP is huge sized slow subsonic slag with no maneuverability and poor range.
It cannot be used against modern SAMs at all.

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official range is 560km.
It is stealthy and low flying.

I think it's really a threat for any target. Main problem : to give it the right location (where to detonate) on time.

 

[BON PLAN]

Pantsir radar can detect 2sqcm radar target from 30km track it from 24km.

are you sure? some proof?

 

[BON PLAN]

Funny thing about saturation attack is everyone fail to understand the amount of weapons that would require to destroy the SAM system. Especially when you're enemy is fully prepared for large scale saturation attacks. And how long and how many saturation attacks can invading force perform.

I agree .

 

[BON PLAN]

to take down a regiment of S-400 one needs to be willing to sacrifice around 2-3 squadrons of fighters + plus associated weapons. Subsonic cruise missiles such as SCALP and PGMs like AASM are useless

It's only your point of view.
I'm not sure you can detect, engage and destroy a SCALP, stealthy, maybe with counter measures (inside of from fighters) and flying low profile.

 

[Armand2REP]

are you sure? some proof?

If that doesn't work it has...

• French Sagem MATIS LR midwave thermal imager with WFOV of 4.17° x 6.25°, and NFOV of 0.87° x 1.3°, with a 0.05 mrad angular track error;
• Acquisition performance: F-16 at 17 to 26 km; AGM-88 HARM at 13 to 15 km; cruise missiles at 11 to 14 km, and glidebombs at ~10 km;