Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sancho]

When we are going to receive first batch ?

Delivery starts in 2019 with the last once meant to arrive in 2022.

Anything happening on training our pilots front ?

Any news about Airforce stations being upgraded to accomodate this jet and its operations ?

Not much reported so far.

What weapon package we have purchased ?

MICA IR and EM
Meteor
Scalp
SPICE 2000 (Crystal Maze?)

Also possible, the future integration of Brahmos NG, Astra, NGARM and other SPICE kits

What we have envisioned to data link all its operations and weapon delivery systems with our concurrent communication assets ?

The IFF system should be from Thales, since we use the same in upgraded Migs as well. Data links should be provided by BEL.

How long it will take to open all its war fighting envelope, I mean learning curve ?

Dassault states fast learning, especially for Mirage 2000 customers, because of similarities. However it's a completely new fighter, with new systems and capabilities, that IAF needs to adjust to and also find ways to incorporate into their tactics. Interoperability with MKIs will be a key in the north eastern sectors. Making full use of Rafales EW capabilities, sets a new benchmark in IAF as well. But then again, limited to 2 specific locations, limits the overall benefit.

 

[Immanuel]

SFC will use the Brahmos capable 40 MKI for which deliveries of the the aircraft have begun after last year's Brahmos tests, the Rafale won't be playing the N-delivery role for now. Currently SFC's air based nuke delivery is done by around 20 Jaguars (Gravity Bombs, now being upgraded with standoff guidance kits), Unless more Rafales are ordered, the initial 36 are meant for conventional roles armed with Meteor, Mica, Spice (250/1000), Scalp etc. Potentially Jag's role would be taken up by Rafale if more orders come in, it would be quite easy to strap a new bomb nuke bomb with glide kit on it.

SFC will use MKI with Brahmos, eventually Brahmos-NG, Nirbhay and Brahmos-2 over the next 15 years.

 

[Immanuel]

Delivery starts in 2019 with the last once meant to arrive in 2022.
Not much reported so far.
MICA IR and EM
Meteor
Scalp
SPICE 2000 (Crystal Maze?)
Also possible, the future integration of Brahmos NG, Astra, NGARM and other SPICE kits
The IFF system should be from Thales, since we use the same in upgraded Migs as well. Data links should be provided by BEL.
Dassault states fast learning, especially for Mirage 2000 customers, because of similarities. However it's a completely new fighter, with new systems and capabilities, that IAF needs to adjust to and also find ways to incorporate into their tactics. Interoperability with MKIs will be a key in the north eastern sectors. Making full use of Rafales EW capabilities, sets a new benchmark in IAF as well. But then again, limited to 2 specific locations, limits the overall benefit.

Astra Mk-2, NGARM, SAAW, New 1000kg Glide bomb and other but Brahmos-Ng for Rafale won't be happening. Integration of Brahmos-Ng would require Russia to give Dassault insights into the missile it self, seeker tech/algorigthms and that won't be happening with the French looking on.

 

[gadeshi]

No, RCS calculates for a factory config which includes fixed stations if they come that way out of the assembly-line as well as the fuel probe and any other fittings it has.

This is BS.
Go read some RCS measurement practices, LMTAS Polecat for example.

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[Misha]

• But we needed them in numbers and on bases all over the country, not limited to pointless 36 and at just 2 bases, which basically leaves 1 x squad against (north) Pakistan and 1 against China.

• Exactly the reason why I think it's going to SCF.. two Sq is too less for any other role except for Nuke strike.

• Further orders for IAF will change my openion.. let's wait and see how it shapes up

 

[nongaddarliberal]

• Exactly the reason why I think it's going to SCF.. two Sq is too less for any other role except for Nuke strike.

• Further orders for IAF will change my openion.. let's wait and see how it shapes up

In times of war, even 36 Rafales can make a big difference. Especially if it's against only Pakistan, which only has 60-70 f 16s operational. But IAF is probably going to get 36 more.

 

[Sancho]

• Exactly the reason why I think it's going to SCF.. two Sq is too less for any other role except for Nuke strike.

• Further orders for IAF will change my openion.. let's wait and see how it shapes up

They probably have that capability too, but as explained, that was not a prime reason to buy them. Keep in mind that the government couldn't afford to cancel such an important tender with nothing in their hand to show. They just bought the minimum required numbers to brag about it and to bridge the gap till they might be able to start their own fighter tender, the SE MMRCA under their SPM.
IAF wants 2 more squads eventually, but even they are planned only for the same 2 bases, which means Rafale will remain a regional fighter for IAF, which limits it's advantages.

 

[Sancho]

Astra Mk-2, NGARM, SAAW, New 1000kg Glide bomb and other but Brahmos-Ng for Rafale won't be happening. Integration of Brahmos-Ng would require Russia to give Dassault insights into the missile it self, seeker tech/algorigthms and that won't be happening with the French looking on.

Well all of them needs to be developed first anyway and as with all DRDO developments, wait and see.

 

[Armand2REP]

This is BS.
Go read some RCS measurement practices, LMTAS Polecat for example.

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The RCS measurement of a "clean" configuration is that as it comes to an airshow. It's masts, probes and accoutrements are installed. To think that it would be measured at some pre-production stage with nothing on it is ludicrous.

 

[BON PLAN]

They probably have that capability too, but as explained, that was not a prime reason to buy them. Keep in mind that the government couldn't afford to cancel such an important tender with nothing in their hand to show. They just bought the minimum required numbers to brag about it and to bridge the gap till they might be able to start their own fighter tender, the SE MMRCA under their SPM.
IAF wants 2 more squads eventually, but even they are planned only for the same 2 bases, which means Rafale will remain a regional fighter for IAF, which limits it's advantages.

72 Rafale a regional fighter?
When you see the use made by India of only 50+ Mirage 2000.... I have a doubt. A great doubt.

 

[nongaddarliberal]

72 Rafale a regional fighter?
When you see the use made by India of only 50+ Mirage 2000.... I have a doubt. A great doubt.

72 Rafales will be enough to take care of the entire PAF. In case of a two front war, that will leave all other fighters to take care of China. Realistically this will not be how they will be used of course. They will use a combination of Rafale and Su 30mki on both fronts. Not to mention the still deadly mirage 2000s which have been upgraded, and the mig 29s.

 

[Sancho]

72 Rafale a regional fighter?
When you see the use made by India of only 50+ Mirage 2000.... I have a doubt. A great doubt.

It's simple logic, when it's limited to 2 air bases in the north, it won't play any role in the south, so maritime attack has no importance. It can't fight against enemies south at South Western borders either. Just as Mirage can't provide air defence in eastern or southern sectors either.
Moreover only the 2 Rafale and possibly the 1 Mirage Base will have the necessary logistics to operate these fighters, which itself is highly limiting, while an MKI from eastern air bases, can be diverted to any MKI Base all over the country.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Oh my god ! This is page 666 of the “Know your Rafale” thread !

 

[gadeshi]

The RCS measurement of a "clean" configuration is that as it comes to an airshow. It's masts, probes and accoutrements are installed. To think that it would be measured at some pre-production stage with nothing on it is ludicrous.

Yes, clean body measurements ensure total RCS quality.
But loaded RCS makes no sense because load to body signal interference.
Loaded configuration RCS will be huge for any fighter with any load.

That's why some manufacturets use conformal weapons bays if possible.
Russians can partially hide weapons inside the aerodynamical tunel between engine naccels.

But all of them rely on stand-off capabilities rather than low RCS.

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[asianobserve]

True, which is the point when the EW has to take over and when jamming the enemy radar gets important.
When you can't divert the radar signals (stealth design), you have to change the radar returns.

You mean active radar cancellation? It does not work in real life.

Rafale relies on traditional radar jamming methods to try to confuse or delay an adversaries lock on it. But all other 4th gen fighters, especially those equipped with AESA radars, can do it yet the Russians and the Chinese are still heavily investing in stealth fighters (and the Europeans are still trying to play catch up, if they can agree among themselves on how to do it).

Indeed.
It's where Spectra works....

Spectra will not turn Rafale laiden with missiles, bombs and EFTs into a clean F-35. It does not make Rafale into a stealth fighter.

 

[asianobserve]

Yes, clean body measurements ensure total RCS quality.
But loaded RCS makes no sense because load to body signal interference.
Loaded configuration RCS will be huge for any fighter with any load.

That's why some manufacturets use conformal weapons bays if possible.
Russians can partially hide weapons inside the aerodynamical tunel between engine naccels.

But all of them rely on stand-off capabilities rather than low RCS.

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The tunnel between the engines in Russian fighters are not radar dead zones. These are huge radar mirrors that stealth planes do away with clean belly designs. That's why in terms of stealth shaping Russia's Su-57 is in trouble.

But aerodynamically Su-57 has a huge advantage over 4th gen planes as it has the ability to fight clean. It means it has very little or no parasitic drag when its weapons are stored in internal bays.

 

[Sancho]

You mean active radar cancellation? It does not work in real life.

Thales and now Saab would disagree, the issue with that however is, to have the correct enemy radar signal and to reflect the correct modulation back, depending on the angle the radar signal hits the airframe or any external load. Doable but very difficult and no alternative to stealth design. It's just a measure to make fighters harder to detect and Rafale is known for that for sure.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's simple logic, when it's limited to 2 air bases in the north, it won't play any role in the south, so maritime attack has no importance. It can't fight against enemies south at South Western borders either. Just as Mirage can't provide air defence in eastern or southern sectors either.
Moreover only the 2 Rafale and possibly the 1 Mirage Base will have the necessary logistics to operate these fighters, which itself is highly limiting, while an MKI from eastern air bases, can be diverted to any MKI Base all over the country.

When you see some Rafale M embarking on a US carrier, I can assure you that you can divert some Rafale on another air base !
Easily !
See the french or Mirage in Jordania or UAE.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes, clean body measurements ensure total RCS quality.
But loaded RCS makes no sense because load to body signal interference.
Loaded configuration RCS will be huge for any fighter with any load.

That's why some manufacturets use conformal weapons bays if possible.
Russians can partially hide weapons inside the aerodynamical tunel between engine naccels.

But all of them rely on stand-off capabilities rather than low RCS.

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The purpose of these loaded config RCS measures is to know exactly how you plane will answered to a radar illumination, sector by sector.
=> It's interesting in a air to ground attack to choose the entry and out axes, and it help Spectra to fine tune how to work in case of.

 

[BON PLAN]

You mean active radar cancellation? It does not work in real life.

You can't prove it.
As I can't prove the contrary.

But just imagine that Spectra developpment used 1/4 of the total R&D amount of the Rafale programme. ie 1/4 of 45 french francs billions of the 90th. ie 1.5 €billions of 1990.... just for a classical tool fully developped for Mirage 2000-5 ? sure not.