Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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IMO the current govt hit two targets with one stone... not only they got out of stuck MMRCA contract they also closed the requirement of Strategic Force Command which wanted 40 Su 30 for nuke delivery.
The two sq of Rafale may be going to SFC, look at the bases.. one against PAK & other against China.
In any case Su 30 with RCS of truck wasn't suitable for deep penetrating Nuke delivery, where as Rafale ticks all the boxes for Nuke delivery.

IAF will get another 40 Su -30 MKI which was meant for SFC.

However there may be a promise for more Rafale's based on they fulfilling their commitment regarding Kaveri.
If they deliver on their commitment & deliver us certified 95 Kn+ Kaveri we may see further order of 50+ for Navy which may be powered by Kaveri itself and the offset commitment will be Tuning/Certification of K-10, (or whatever it's called) the 125+ Kn engine for AMCA. There is probability of 36 more for IAF in case Navy deal dosen't materialize.

Bottom line is IAF may not get any Rafale at all, it will be SFC & Navy... (All SFC assets will be with IAF on paper but won't be under their command, just like SSBN's.)
As IAF want to add SPICE and a new laser pod, you realise that Rafale will also be used for non nuclear mission.
At least a follow on order is assured. India will not make again the Mirage 2000 mistake....
 

Armand2REP

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Exactly.
Actually any fighter with external loads will have a heavy truck RCS, this is normal.

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Depends on how the load is configured. Rafale CFTs and Scalp EG are RAM coated and angled for RCS reduction.
 

Sancho

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There is more than meet the eyes,
Firstly you can agree that it was impossible to get 126 planes at 10 billion dollars with the lines and other things.
Well, there was never a 10 billion limit to start with, all we kept hearing about the costs for a decade now, was media speculations, that even started before MMRCA, with the initial MRCA. So that figure was just taken over from speculations of the earlier tender, but with the addition of Rafale, EF, F18SH and the requirement of AESA, it was clear that the cost will jump as well.

The price for all that was offered would be more than twice, maybe about US$ 30 billion
If you take the system cost and costs for weapons to account quite possible, but then again, the procurement cost was never the issue.
The MMRCA had a cleared budget before the shortlisting, which was confirmed by IAF at the time. There was no focus on low costs as a shortlisting factor either, nor was the tender cancelled on high costs, but on non compliance to the RFP.
Costs only came into the game, because of HALs calculation issue, since it might had made the EF L1.

Also the way the method was chosen is that 2 would be final selected and the govt will deal only with L1 and in case the discussions did not reach conclusions then there was no condition to discuss with L2 thus, with all the fixing. Rafale was selected L1 and with Dassault playing hard ball, there was no chance for GoI discussing with L2
That's not correct, there was a possibility and the question is, why wasn't it chosen?

=>

India may need to walk away from Rafale to buy MMRCA
by Saurabh JoshiApril 10, 2015

...There is nothing that prevents the defense ministry from declaring any or all of the following:

1. Dassault’s bid is no longer L1
2. Dassault’s bid is no longer compliant with the terms of the RFP


Once such a determination is made, the defense ministry is free to negotiate with the new ‘L1’; in this case the European four-nation Eurofighter Typhoon consortium.

The defense ministry is also free to resort to provisions outlined in Para 73 of the Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) upon approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which allow it to negotiate with and conclude an order from any of the other vendors that participated in the MMRCA tender.

Para 73 of the Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) says:

In certain acquisition cases, imperatives of strategic partnerships or major diplomatic, political, economic, technological or military benefits deriving from a particular procurement may be the principal factor determining the choice of a specific platform or equipment on a single vendor basis. These considerations may also dictate the selection of particular equipment offered by a vendor not necessarily the lowest bidder (L1). Decisions on all such acquisitions would be taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) on the recommendations of the DPB...
https://www.stratpost.com/india-may-need-to-walk-away-from-rafale-to-buy-mmrca/


IAF top brass were not help at all when they were giving bad timed interviews like "there is no plan B" thus actually putting the ball in Dassaults court, thus there was no way Dassault could lose this
That's out of context, since IAF remarked that wrt no split of the tender and no alternative procurement of non medium class fighters. They never said that they only want Rafale, in fact several different air chiefs are on record, by saying that IAF needs an MMRCA, not necessarily Rafale.

But NDA turned out very smart, and he cancelled the RFP and just to keep IAF happy they ordered 36 token Rafale along with base infrastructure
Smart for their own political reasons true, to get good PR, but that's it. IAF was not happy at all, since again several air chiefs are on record, saying that 36 is not enough and that it requires at least 90 more.
Same goes for the 6 Apaches that the government bought for IA, do you think they are happy to get a fraction of the required numbers (39)? Does it make any operational difference to have 36 Rafales or 6 Apaches? Not really, but at least the government can say that did something.
But doing "something" is not = doing "the right thing"! These kind of PR deals and fake DAC clearances won't protect the country.
 

Sancho

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1) I don't agree.

2) NO

3) It's never the generals that decide. It's the politics. It seems that SE initiative is dead (Gripen E is too far dependant of US key components. F16 also and is a old horse).
So basically, you have no arguments. Nothing new though. :)
 

gadeshi

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Depends on how the load is configured. Rafale CFTs and Scalp EG are RAM coated and angled for RCS reduction.
It doesn't matter because of hardpoints themselves.

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Sancho

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The two sq of Rafale may be going to SFC, look at the bases.. one against PAK & other against China.
Look where the Mirage 2000 is based and what upgrades it got and you will understand, that there was no reason to buy Rafale for the nuclear role, since the Mirage will remain in it till 2035. And even after that, Rafale might not take it over, since by then we should have stealth aircrafts, that have clear advantages in the nuclear role.

Rafales main advantages for India were A2A capability against superior numbers of enemy fighters, precision strike and non nuclear deep strike with heavy weapons against high value targets. But we needed them in numbers and on bases all over the country, not limited to pointless 36 and at just 2 bases, which basically leaves 1 x squad against (north) Pakistan and 1 against China.

That's how a game changer for IAF went into a cheap PR deal.
 

Sancho

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It doesn't matter because of hardpoints themselves.

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Exactly, the only way effectively reduce the RCS of fighters with opperational loads, is to reduce external loads. The Flankers can do so by not using fuel tanks and F16s or the new F18 Block 3 do it by using CFTs instead of external tanks, stealth aircrafts by using internal loads only.
 

Armand2REP

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It doesn't matter because of hardpoints themselves.

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The hardpoints are always there and already calculated into the clean config RCS which is 0.3m^2. With a loadout of 3 CFTs, 2 Scalp EG and 4 Mica it is the same as PAK FA clean at 0.5m^2.
 

gadeshi

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The hardpoints are always there and already calculated into the clean config RCS which is 0.3m^2. With a loadout of 3 CFTs, 2 Scalp EG and 4 Mica it is the same as PAK FA clean at 0.5m^2.
No.
RCS calculates for clean body.
Hardpoints always create interferention zones which produce reflection spikes that you cannot deal with.

That's why Boeing has sacrificed fuel volumes within F-15SE CFTs to incorporate weapons.

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asianobserve

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Depends on how the load is configured. Rafale CFTs and Scalp EG are RAM coated and angled for RCS reduction.
While all other missiles, bombs and EFTs on Rafale are conventional design, meaning they light up like Christmas trees on radar. Not to mention the aerodynamic drag of these hanging stores on the plane.
 

hit&run

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When we are going to receive first batch ?

Anything happening on training our pilots front ?

Any news about Airforce stations being upgraded to accomodate this jet and its operations ?

What weapon package we have purchased ?

What we have envisioned to data link all its operations and weapon delivery systems with our concurrent communication assets ?

How long it will take to open all its war fighting envelope, I mean learning curve ?


I thought let me just change the discourse to more India specific issues :biggrin2:

Thanks in advance.
 

Armand2REP

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No.
RCS calculates for clean body.
Hardpoints always create interferention zones which produce reflection spikes that you cannot deal with.

That's why Boeing has sacrificed fuel volumes within F-15SE CFTs to incorporate weapons.

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No, RCS calculates for a factory config which includes fixed stations if they come that way out of the assembly-line as well as the fuel probe and any other fittings it has.
 

Sancho

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While all other missiles, bombs and EFTs on Rafale are conventional design, meaning they light up like Christmas trees on radar. Not to mention the aerodynamic drag of these hanging stores on the plane.
True, which is the point when the EW has to take over and when jamming the enemy radar gets important.
When you can't divert the radar signals (stealth design), you have to change the radar returns.
 

BON PLAN

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Exactly.
Actually any fighter with external loads will have a heavy truck RCS, this is normal.

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Specially this one, with F15, F14 : heavy fighterS developped at a time where RCS wasn't an issue.
 

BON PLAN

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While all other missiles, bombs and EFTs on Rafale are conventional design, meaning they light up like Christmas trees on radar. Not to mention the aerodynamic drag of these hanging stores on the plane.
Indeed.
It's where Spectra works....
 

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