Know Your 'Rafale'

Sancho

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No matter how much people keep harping about the LCA.......no one in the IAF wants it.
Wrong, IAF constantly confirmed their commitment to Tejas, but it's not an MMRCA, just as a Mig 21 was not a Mirage 2000 or mig 29. So as long as the plan is to have a mix of light/medium/heavy class fighters, IAF will always want Tejas too.
 

Kshithij

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You have to keep in mind, that it was the BJP that opposed Rafale in the first place! They were against it when they were in opposition and even delayed negations for silly reasons back then, just as it were BJP officials that first complained about PM Modi's 36 Rafale deal and last but not least, it was NDAs own DM Parrikar that stated, that India will not buy more than 36 Rafales for strategic reasons only!

So Congress doing pretty much the same, by asking valid questions is not deciding if more Rafales will come or not, but mainly Dassaults ego problem and budget constrains with a GDP that got down to 5.7% again.
Even Air Chief Dhanoa stated, that IAF wants SE MMRCAs as a priority to make up numbers and add 2 squads of Rafales at a later point, if necessary funds are available.
Any source for this allegations? Please show that
 

Kshithij

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Lol yes, because UAE is know for buying cheap stuff and not willing to pay extra.
The simple fact that even the UAE found Rafale to be too costly tells a lot and if they publicly criticised specifically Dassault, it also shows where the problem is and we saw the same problem in India too.



True, but it could had been avoided if Dassault had played it straight and not tried to play India. Because then we would had seen an order of 126 Rafales and probably the first one landed in India already.
Only light/medium and medium/heavy are relevant. Don't bring three categories here just to confuse.
 

Sancho

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=>

French military projects at risk under budget cap measure

A new government measure to cap public spending has sparked deep concern over future orders for military programs, at a time when France has vowed to hit the NATO funding target, said a member of Parliament.

Article 14 “could have consequences,” Jean-Charles Larsonneur, a lawmaker who sits on the Defense Committee and specializes in military equipment, told Defense News.

The government adopted in the night of Friday to Saturday Article 14 of the public finance law, which sets an overall limit of €106 billion (U.S. $125 billion) to all civil and military expenditure. Defense spending accounts for half of that overall amount.

Article 14 effectively gives extra power to the Economy and Finance Ministry against the Armed Forces Ministry, with the former effectively winning power to decide which arms programs will be backed as a budgetary authorization needs funds.

There is a threat for “authorization funds” for the Rafale F4 upgrade and a successor to the Mica air-to-air missile, said Larsonneur, adding that those were two projects on which he kept a close eye...

...“This is dramatic,” said a defense executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity. “There are real concerns over the multiyear budget law and program 146.” The latter refers to the procurement part of the annual defense budget.


“This is a real attack from Bercy,” the executive added, referring to the Economy and Finance Ministry. Large programs for a next-generation submarine, a second aircraft carrier, a second step in the Scorpion Army modernization effort, a new tank and artillery, and nuclear weapons could be delayed...
https://www.defensenews.com/global/...ry-projects-at-risk-under-budget-cap-measure/
 

Kshithij

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First article:
That is what Mr parrikar was telling the other day. When these people asked why new deal for Rafale costs so much, he clearly stated that life cycle costs were not included. He now wants to guarantee the life cycle costs and serviceability of Rafales and has included in the new deal

Second Article:
This is from Subramanian Swamy against BJP itself, not BJP troubling congress.

Third article:
Parrikar states clearly that the cost of 126 rafales according to the deal would come at 1.3 lakh crores and is hence unviable. It is pretty consistent with what he said everytime. Life cycle cost were not included and that would have hit hard
 

Sancho

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First article...
The first article is about Yashwant Sinha and other Indian politicians of the opposition back then, that delayed negotiations during UPA times.
And the rest as already explained, so no need reply to baseless excuses.
 

Kshithij

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The first article is about Yashwant Sinha and other Indian politicians of the opposition back then, that delayed negotiations during UPA times.
And the rest as already explained, so no need reply to baseless excuses.
You said BJP opposed Rafales. Reality was that BJP opposed shady Rafale deal without proper terms and conditions about life cycle cost. India just ordered 126 rafales at 100 million Euro a piece without any regards to customisation, maintenance, serviceability guarantee etc.

This is like UAE ordering 12 Rafale for 1.1 billion Euro. That is applicable only after initial contract with proper terms and customisation.

Opposing shady deals is different from opposing Rafales
 

BON PLAN

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Lol yes, because UAE is know for buying cheap stuff and not willing to pay extra.
The simple fact that even the UAE found Rafale to be too costly tells a lot and if they publicly criticised specifically Dassault, it also shows where the problem is and we saw the same problem in India too.



True, but it could had been avoided if Dassault had played it straight and not tried to play India. Because then we would had seen an order of 126 Rafales and probably the first one landed in India already.
UAE purchased the then best MBT of the world : Leclerc, which was the costlier one... you say cheap stuff ?
They criticised Dassault because they wanted a Super Rafale (2x9T, survitamined AESA, Boosted Spectra ) at a normal Rafale price. No way.
And there was another hiden reason : a personnal misunderstanding between the ceo of Dassault, the very average Edelstenne and the crown prince of UAE (about a woman? about a horse? about a debt? I don't know).
Honnestly I prefer, as a french, that they found Rafale economically not suitable, than being a european citizen and read that the EF is technically not suitable...
But some water spread under the bridge, and 3 export customers found Rafale absolutely nice.

Stop speaking of MMRCA. The game was biaised because HAL has just not the level.
If Dassault was so off side, do you imagine India purchasing some directly from france? Be serious.
During the bargaining game, in and out MMRCA, all the others (LM, Boeing, Mig, Sukhoi, Airbus) have made proposals. And the winner was Dassault. Final point.
 

Sancho

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They criticised Dassault because they wanted a Super Rafale (2x9T, survitamined AESA, Boosted Spectra )
Lol because they found Rafale technically not suitable for their needs! You are contradicting yourself.
 

Sancho

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Lol because they found Rafale technically not suitable for their needs! You are contradicting yourself.
PS neither did India or Qatar, since they customised their Rafales too, to close capability gaps. HMS, capable LDPs, up to 83kN thrust, PGMs, possibly custom RWR.
 

mattster

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Wrong, IAF constantly confirmed their commitment to Tejas, but it's not an MMRCA, just as a Mig 21 was not a Mirage 2000 or mig 29. So as long as the plan is to have a mix of light/medium/heavy class fighters, IAF will always want Tejas too.
The IAF is not operating in a vacuum without understanding the political ramification of saying NO to the LCA. They are not stupid. They know how to read between the lines when it comes to the Indian political and bureaucratic scene.

Sure, they will accept a small contingent of LCA's which may have a very limited role or maybe just used for air-shows and training pilots. But its not going to be the mass replacement for single engine fighter requirement - for that they want something more capable like the Saab Gripen NG or something else. They are not going to induct 200 LCA's into the IAF to replace MIG-21.

They know that they cant say a flat NO to the LCA; it will be politically unacceptable, so they will take 20/30 or so LCAs - just enough to make 1 squadron, and make a big PR Media show of it to keep everybody happy. Then they will slowly and quietly work on the sidelines to get the single engine fighter from abroad and manufacture it in India for the mass order single-engine fighter need.

This way everybody including the Politicians, MOD, ADA, HAL, DRDO, gets to "SAVE FACE", even if it ends up costing the Indian tax-payer a few billions extra.....who's counting anyway ?

This is INDIA.....if you are a Indian Army, Navy, or Air chief; you have to find a way to play the political football game with the Babus, DRDO, MOD, and still find the a way somehow to give the boys who are going to do the real fighting, a decent fighting chance when a war breaks out.
 
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Kshithij

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The IAF is not operating in a vacuum without understanding the political ramification of saying NO to the LCA. They are not stupid. They know how to read between the lines when it comes to the Indian political and bureaucratic scene.

Sure, they will accept a small contingent of LCA's which may have a very limited role or maybe just used for air-shows and training pilots. But its not going to be the mass replacement for single engine fighter requirement - for that they want something more capable like the Saab Gripen NG or something else. They are not going to induct 200 LCA's into the IAF to replace MIG-21.

They know that they cant say a flat NO to the LCA; it will be politically unacceptable, so they will take 20/30 or so LCAs - just enough to make 1 squadron, and make a big PR Media show of it to keep everybody happy. Then they will slowly and quietly work on the sidelines to get the single engine fighter from abroad and manufacture it in India for the mass order single-engine fighter need.

This way everybody including the Politicians, MOD, ADA, HAL, DRDO, gets to "SAVE FACE", even if it ends up costing the Indian tax-payer a few billions extra.....who's counting anyway ?

This is INDIA.....if you are a Indian Army, Navy, or Air chief; you have to find a way to play the political football game with the Babus, DRDO, MOD, and still find the a way somehow to give the boys who are going to do the real fighting, a decent fighting chance when a war breaks out.
IAf wants or not is irrelevant. IAF is not some special guests who have the luxury of demanding anything they want. 120 LCA is not 20-30 by any standards. So, it is best if to keep your grandfather F16 with yourself and let others enjoy a better ride in LCA Tejas and win real wars. F16 is only good against primitives with sandals, not against real foes
 

WolfPack86

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People on twitter started questioning rafale deal and govt. Only blunder that govt made is by involving ambani in the rafale deal.
 

Kshithij

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People on twitter started questioning rafale deal and govt. Only blunder that govt made is by involving ambani in the rafale deal.
Where was Ambani involved? Haven't you been reading that it is a off-the-shelf purchase? Offset of 50% was a compulsory investment of France, not government involving Ambani. France can invest anywhere. But that is not for production of Rafale
 

mayfair

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This again???

Sometimes I wonder why do I even waste my time on here...
 

BON PLAN

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Lol because they found Rafale technically not suitable for their needs! You are contradicting yourself.
YOU ARE WRONG.

They found the economical proposal od DA not suitable.
It's the EF proposal that, after the Rafale saga, was found technically unsuitable.


you have to revise your basics o_O
 
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