Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

PS neither did India or Qatar, since they customised their Rafales too, to close capability gaps. HMS, capable LDPs, up to 83kN thrust, PGMs, possibly custom RWR.

WRONG ANOTHER TIME

No 83kn engine on Indian or Qatar planes. It was a fake news.
LDP : Damocles is there (with a better range than all the competitors, BUT less efficient in urban conflict where its discrimination is inferior to detect friend from foe) and Talios will be integrated in 2018.
What is the LDP integrated on Saudi Arabia Tornado ?
HMS : It's only the french air force that didn't need it.
RWR : ..... ?

 

[Tactical Frog]

WRONG ANOTHER TIME

No 83kn engine on Indian or Qatar planes. It was a fake news.
LDP : Damocles is there (with a better range than all the competitors, BUT less efficient in urban conflict where its discrimination is inferior to detect friend from foe) and Talios will be integrated in 2018.
What is the LDP integrated on Saudi Arabia Tornado ?
HMS : It's only the french air force that didn't need it.
RWR : ..... ?

F-22 pilots don’t have HMS too. When you have an awesome man-machine interface like the one onboard Rafale you can do just fine without HMS.

RWR : radar warning receiver.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter aircraft.

 

[WolfPack86]

I want France and Dassult to re- negotiate with HAL and Indian Government to produce at least 100 rafales under Make in India. Rafale is the best plane ever India had. Tactical Frog, Bon Plan.

 

[Sancho]

People on twitter started questioning rafale deal and govt. Only blunder that govt made is by involving ambani in the rafale deal.

That's actually the part that was according to the rules, since not the government chose Reliance, but Dassault.

YOU ARE WRONG.

They found the economical proposal od DA not suitable.
It's the EF proposal that, after the Rafale saga, was found technically unsuitable.


you have to revise your basics

So you are denying your own words now? They wanted more performance, more radar and EW capabilities, HMS..., which makes the standard Rafale technically not suitable for their requirements, just as for Qatar or India.

The EF in fact, has suitable thrust, with AESA also offers suitable detection range, it has HMS, IRST and integrating the Sniper pod was no issue for them either, the only problem remains long range cruise missile attacks, which is why they offered UAE a version with CFTs.

But where is GaN for RBE 2 or SPECTRA?
Where is the 90kN M88 engine?
And only thanks to Qatar, now Sniper pod and HMS are available for UAE.

So while the EF improved itself towards their requirements, Rafale hardly gained advantages to be suitable for the UAE, while their real aim is something better anyway.

F-22 pilots don’t have HMS too. When you have an awesome man-machine interface like the one onboard Rafale you can do just fine without HMS.

That's an excuse, but even French forces wanted HMS for Rafale for years and even selected one, which then was cancelled again.

 

[BON PLAN]

I want France and Dassult to re- negotiate with HAL and Indian Government to produce at least 100 rafales under Make in India. Rafale is the best plane ever India had. Tactical Frog, Bon Plan.

I'm afraid HAL scares all the possible partners (even if some had negociated agrements, mainly to keep an open door with indian politics top brass)...
And now with the Dassault - Reliance initiative, it's too late for HAL.

Under the line, I read the Dassault - reliance initiative as blessed by the indian govt, to shake HAL and create a new and private (so more effective) aerospace hub in india.

 

[BON PLAN]

So you are denying your own words now? They wanted more performance, more radar and EW capabilities, HMS..., which makes the standard Rafale technically not suitable for their requirements, just as for Qatar or India.

The EF in fact, has suitable thrust, with AESA also offers suitable detection range, it has HMS, IRST and integrating the Sniper pod was no issue for them either, the only problem remains long range cruise missile attacks, which is why they offered UAE a version with CFTs.

But where is GaN for RBE 2 or SPECTRA?
Where is the 90kN M88 engine?
And only thanks to Qatar, now Sniper pod and HMS are available for UAE.

So while the EF improved itself towards their requirements, Rafale hardly gained advantages to be suitable for the UAE, while their real aim is something better anyway.

Where have you read or seen a deny in my words? Stop dreaming Bro.

Every plane can be more effective with more thrust, more radar range, more ferry range....
About engine : Facts is that it costs, and UAE want it without paying the bill. Good by UAE !
About radar (read carefully, because I write it for the third time. And because you have an iron head, I write it step by step) :
- The prototyp of RBE2AESA used US active components. With it the range was PESA one + 50%.
- UAE wanted more range, so the sole solution to date was to increase the power output by 40% (for a 10 or 15% range gain) but with a new cooling system.
- It was technically agreed by UAE (so note : AESA with US components and new cooling syst. = PESA + 50% + 15% = PESA + 72%)
- As UAE didn't go through, this solution was freezed.
- Some small years after the european active components arrived, and OH surprise they were more efficient. Without a change in the original cooling system they gave a +100% range improvement vs PESA.
- So a full european/ french RBE2AESA with 100% increase range over PESA is fully compliant to the UAE agreed range of PESA +72%.


EF :
Suitable thrust? what mean suitable thrust? The empty bird is one ton (and slightly more I think) over rafale. It carry less load with less range.... What do you think an air force is looking at? Thrust or range/load/agility/polyvalence/persistance...

AESA on EF? we are in 2017 and no AESA on EF. Other west european airborne AESA radar are at best 5 years late vs RAFALE one (and more because PESA software refinements are used on AESA... so more than 15 years of improvements behind it.)

HMS : It didn't prevail EF to be hardly beaten in all dog fight engagement vs Rafale ....

IRST : OSF and OSF NG now. Indo/french IRST tomorrow.

laser pod : 2 are integrated (Damocles and Sniper for Qatar (deliveries for Qatar early next year) ). 2 other to come : Talios and Litening for india in 2018 & 2019. What else?

GaN : wait the F4 standard. But there is a main difference between Rafale and EF or Saab : we are delivering our product on time, on budget and on spec. See the Captor E to understand it's not the case for some others. So 2024/2025 sur for french bird. Annouced for 2022? by Saab? and really inducted in 2029 ?

90KN M88 : it's no more a UAE request I think. But a prototyp was made, a technical and financial proposal made. Now UAE has to decide. They want something better? EF = no. F35 = a joke. F22 = not possible. Su35/57 = ? to see.

The more mature plane so far is Rafale. And the roading map for F4, MLU give a customer the assurance it remain for years.


I wish you a nice evening !

 

[BON PLAN]

That's an excuse, but even French forces wanted HMS for Rafale for years and even selected one, which then was cancelled again.

Money my friend.
We can't spend so many euros for jobless, lazy peoples and third world immigrates and equipped our armys all together !

 

[Kshithij]

Money my friend.
We can't spend so many euros for jobless, lazy peoples and third world immigrates and equipped our armys all together !

Why does France spend on these type of people so hugely? Isn't the only expenditure on food subsidy?

The way I see it is that France has as much GDP as India but lower population (15 times lower). Defence budget should be a no brainer.

I may not be budget. It might have been something else

 

[Kshithij]

Where have you read or seen a deny in my words? Stop dreaming Bro.

Every plane can be more effective with more thrust, more radar range, more ferry range....
About engine : Facts is that it costs, and UAE want it without paying the bill. Good by UAE !
About radar (read carefully, because I write it for the third time. And because you have an iron head, I write it step by step) :
- The prototyp of RBE2AESA used US active components. With it the range was PESA one + 50%.
- UAE wanted more range, so the sole solution to date was to increase the power output by 40% (for a 10 or 15% range gain) but with a new cooling system.
- It was technically agreed by UAE (so note : AESA with US components and new cooling syst. = PESA + 50% + 15% = PESA + 72%)
- As UAE didn't go through, this solution was freezed.
- Some small years after the european active components arrived, and OH surprise they were more efficient. Without a change in the original cooling system they gave a +100% range improvement vs PESA.
- So a full european/ french RBE2AESA with 100% increase range over PESA is fully compliant to the UAE agreed range of PESA +72%.


EF :
Suitable thrust? what mean suitable thrust? The empty bird is one ton (and slightly more I think) over rafale. It carry less load with less range.... What do you think an air force is looking at? Thrust or range/load/agility/polyvalence/persistance...

AESA on EF? we are in 2017 and no AESA on EF. Other west european airborne AESA radar are at best 5 years late vs RAFALE one (and more because PESA software refinements are used on AESA... so more than 15 years of improvements behind it.)

HMS : It didn't prevail EF to be hardly beaten in all dog fight engagement vs Rafale ....

IRST : OSF and OSF NG now. Indo/french IRST tomorrow.

laser pod : 2 are integrated (Damocles and Sniper for Qatar (deliveries for Qatar early next year) ). 2 other to come : Talios and Litening for india in 2018 & 2019. What else?

GaN : wait the F4 standard. But there is a main difference between Rafale and EF or Saab : we are delivering our product on time, on budget and on spec. See the Captor E to understand it's not the case for some others. So 2024/2025 sur for french bird. Annouced for 2022? by Saab? and really inducted in 2029 ?

90KN M88 : it's no more a UAE request I think. But a prototyp was made, a technical and financial proposal made. Now UAE has to decide. They want something better? EF = no. F35 = a joke. F22 = not possible. Su35/57 = ? to see.

The more mature plane so far is Rafale. And the roading map for F4, MLU give a customer the assurance it remain for years.


I wish you a nice evening !

I find it surprising that MToW of rafale and Typhoon is same despite Typhoon having 180kN thrust while rafale has 150kN.

It is really fishy. Do you know why this is the case?

 

[lcafanboy]

I find it surprising that MToW of rafale and Typhoon is same despite Typhoon having 180kN thrust while rafale has 150kN.

It is really fishy. Do you know why this is the case?

Better aerodynamics, lighter and stronger airframe, overall lighter weight, & better centre pylon capacity than eurofighter.

 

[Metrology]

Nope, the article says that it is not mentioned what AESA it is.

”Specifics, such as whether the PAF selected the Erieye or new gallium nitride (GaN)-based AESA Erieye ER (which has 70% more range than the Erieye)...”

Read again.

Yes, it seems they have developed land based gaN radar. But, there is no evidence that they have made aewacs or fighter jet radar. Even USA has GaN radar for AEGIS and Patriot missile defence. India also has made GaN modules. The problem here is that they are big and inefficient as of now. It is important to miniaturise them. These things are technology demonstrators only.

Plenty of evidence, just Google.
http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/counter-stealth-radar-key-growing-aew-market

Its still in development for AEGIS, and there have been no deliveries of upgraded Patriots yet it seems. The ”even” sounds misplaced.

SAAB on the other hand had a sale in 2014 on GaN Giraffe to be delivered in 2016.

http://m.aviationweek.com/blog/thats-what-i-call-confidence

Won't be convinced until I see the radar as such. They don't have fighter based GaN AESA or even older GaAs AESA for fighters as of now.

I agree that SAAB has experience with radar design and manufacture. But, they don't have AESA for fighter jets as of now. They don't have the ability to miniaturise. I am not speaking of big ass radars but miniaturised radars. India has UTTAM while SAAB has nothing.

You have demonstrated a near complete lack of knowledge about SAABs radar products, yet you claim to know that? Not very credible.

They said they were ready for production in 2015 on a GaN AESA fighter radar. They most likely wouldn’t make such a claim without at least being near the end of the development cycle.

 

[Kshithij]

They said they were ready for production in 2015 on a GaN AESA fighter radar. They most likely wouldn’t make such a claim without at least being near the end of the development cycle

That is what I am saying. SAAB makes bullshit claims. Their marketing is disgusting to say the least. They lie through their teeth

Its still in development for AEGIS, and there have been no deliveries of upgraded Patriots yet it seems. The ”even” sounds misplaced.

Here is the source of my claims of GaN being used in Patriot: http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2017/may/raytheon_240517.shtml

”Specifics, such as whether the PAF selected the Erieye or new gallium nitride (GaN)-based AESA Erieye ER (which has 70% more range than the Erieye)...”

Read again.

Let me complete that from the source: "Specifics, such as whether the PAF selected the Erieye or new gallium nitride (GaN)-based AESA Erieye ER (which has 70% more range than the Erieye) or if these new aircraft include synthetic aperture radars (SAR) for ground surveillance and target acquisition, are not known."

Why is Gripen using SELEX radar in Brazil export? Which Gripen has SAAB AESA till now? You are giving partial information and hiding the rest.

 

[Sancho]

Where have you read or seen a deny in my words?

By keep claiming that it was just economically unsuitable, when the whole issue was about costs for upgrades!
The UAE never said the standard Rafale is too costly, they said it doesn't fit our operational requirements and the costs for the upgrades Dassault is asking, was too high!

GaN : wait the F4 standard...
...And the roading map for F4, MLU give a customer the assurance it remain for years.

And there it is again, the standard excuse these days, wait for F4, F4 will have this and that, F4 will make Rafale superior again...in 2025!

Money my friend.
We can't spend so many euros for jobless, lazy peoples and third world immigrates and equipped our armys all together !

And still you claim all kinds of upgrades, which again is contradictory. But these funding issues caused capability gaps that we see today and why export customers have to fund them, to make Rafale suitable.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why does France spend on these type of people so hugely? Isn't the only expenditure on food subsidy?

The way I see it is that France has as much GDP as India but lower population (15 times lower). Defence budget should be a no brainer.

I may not be budget. It might have been something else

France spent 1500 € billiard each year on social transferts (health, social security, jobless wages, refugges help, money to boost natality (including for some that are unable to raise childs)... There is no more than 51 social services in France). And it doesn't help some to accept a job, if this job is not tailor made for them...

Too much social killed the social.

 

[BON PLAN]

I find it surprising that MToW of rafale and Typhoon is same despite Typhoon having 180kN thrust while rafale has 150kN.

It is really fishy. Do you know why this is the case?

NO.

Max take off weight of Rafale is now 24.5 tons, and will be 27 tons in the futur.

Max take of weight of EF is 21 tons.

 

[BON PLAN]

By keep claiming that it was just economically unsuitable, when the whole issue was about costs for upgrades!
The UAE never said the standard Rafale is too costly, they said it doesn't fit our operational requirements and the costs for the upgrades Dassault is asking, was too high!

https://www.ft.com/content/3609a75a-105d-11e1-8010-00144feabdc0

“Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms,” Sheikh Mohammed told the UAE’s state news service on Wednesday.

EF was technically unsuitable.
UAE super Rafale was too costly for this poor emiratis.

 

[BON PLAN]

And there it is again, the standard excuse these days, wait for F4, F4 will have this and that, F4 will make Rafale superior again...in 2025!

Rafale is already superior.
It's why GB refused to train and fight against rafale since years because they loose 7 to1.

Rafale F2, F3 and sub standard were all delivered on time, on spec and budget. Why not the F4 ?

EF should have had an AESA radar since 4 years and nothing concrete on the horizon.

 

[BON PLAN]

But these funding issues caused capability gaps that we see today and why export customers have to fund them, to make Rafale suitable.

Egypt takes the plane without any modif versus french AF model. And seem to want some more.
Qatar : a new helmet (whaouuu what an upgrade) and another laser pod. OK, saying 3% of the total price?
India : another helmet (they would have take the Qatar one) and another laser pod. Same 3% ?

WITHOUT HELMET Rafale SMASH EF IN WVR COMBAT....

 

[Kshithij]

NO.

Max take off weight of Rafale is now 24.5 tons, and will be 27 tons in the futur.

Max take of weight of EF is 21 tons.

Wikipedia states that Eurofighter MToW is 23.5 tons while Rafale is 24.5 tons. Rafale has 2 engines of 50/75 kN dry/wet thrust while in Eurofighter, it is twin 60/90 dry/wet thrust engines.

Why is the Rafale having higher MToW than EF? Is EF badly designed?