Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

UAE is negotiating hard for pricing? Damn!

Anyway, Sancho was speaking of initial discussions where RBE2 was not ready

He said it needs GaN to meet the RFP, that is false. To be sold UAE wants a lower price tag on the regional maintenance hub they want installed. Dassault has wiggle room but the SME maintenance equipment suppliers do not. The Sheik is interested to see if the F-35 can make a better offer in 2018, either way we will know the final answer by then.

 

[Sancho]

Not really, at this point in the negotiations the current configuration meets the RFP, it is the pricing they are not happy with and Dassault has refused to budge.

=>

Awaiting the UAE
DSI special edition , August 2010

...And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?

The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale. What the Emirians are calling for is much more complex. They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc.. Even if this is not for us an urgent need, the operational 'plus' obtained could nonetheless eventually interest us. However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.

But more power to the RBE2, could it be a risk to generate serious electromagnetic interference (EMI) with the SPECTRA receptors ?

There is indeed a very real EMI risk to treat. This is the case whenever we want to change aircraft emission systems. There are solutions, obviously, but this will require to reexamine SPECTRA. But the biggest problem we have identified is about electric generation, which could be insufficient. To increase the maximum range of a few nautical miles, we would have to deeply review the electrical generation system of the aircraft.
In short, to conceive what it could be a Rafale-9, that is to say a new aircraft moving away from the similarity you want with french Rafale. The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60, the Rafale having also many other qualities...

That was then, this is now =>

UAE agrees $1.6 billion deal with Lockheed Martin to upgrade F-16 fighters

The United Arab Emirates will pay Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) 6 billion dirhams ($1.63 billion) to upgrade 80 F-16 jet fighters, a Defense Ministry spokesman said on Sunday.

Major General Abdullah Al Sayed Al Hashemi, Chief of the Military Committee and spokesman for the UAE Armed Forces was speaking at a news conference at the Dubai Airshow.

The ministry also announced other deals, including 66 million dirhams to U.S.-based OTNA INC for Blu-109 ammunition and a 35 million dirham agreement with Thales Communications and Security SAS (TCFP.PA) to secure defense communications.

The UAE is also interested in fifth-generation fighter jets with a preference for Lockheed Martin’s F-35, which is the only Western-made jet that fully meets those requirements...

Al Hashemi said he was optimistic that the UAE would be able to buy the F-35 in the near future. “It is an excellent jet,” he said, declining to give details on talks with the U.S. administration.

Ishaq Saleh al Baloushi, executive director of Defense, Industry and Capability Development at the ministry of defense, said the UAE has been also in talks with Russia to buy dozens of Sukhoi 35 fighter jets.

The wealthy Gulf state has also been analyzing the European Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Dassault Rafale fighter jets for years, though deals for the fourth generation jets have never been secured.

“Nothing is finalised, we are talking to all. The technical team is working on this.” he said declining to give details...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...martin-to-upgrade-f-16-fighters-idUSKBN1DC0JH


As said, the RBE 2 was not capable enough back then and even today can't offer the range increase the UAE asked for, because neither more power not GaN modules will be available anytime soon. Only the A2G modes, that now will be added will help to an extent, but that's it and as shown they are aiming on more than 4.5th gen capabilities.

 

[Armand2REP]

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That was then, this is now =>

What is the link to that article?

 

[Sancho]

What is the link to that article?

Not sure if I can post links to IDF here...

http://*****************/threads/rafale-news.1318/#post-10255

 

[Armand2REP]

Not sure if I can post links to IDF here...

http://*****************/threads/rafale-news.1318/#post-10255

It makes perfect sense that the source was a US lobbyist that had no knowledge of the French negotiations.

The technical side of the deal has been settled since 2013, it has been a matter of price ever since.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/uae-rafale-jet-deal-hinges-on-price-hollande-485897.html

 

[Sancho]

It makes perfect sense that the source was a US lobbyist that had no knowledge of the French negotiations.

:biggrin2: Sure

The technical side of the deal has been settled since 2013, it has been a matter of price ever since.

The costs for the upgrades were the problem, from the start.

 

[Tactical Frog]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...r-warns-over-judging-the-budget-by-its-cover/

Recap =>

Translated

http://www.air-cosmos.com/dga-les-programmes-decales-en-2017-102509

Money does not grow on trees. The good news is that F4 standard funding and development is on track. And first operational bricks of the new standard will come as soon as 2023.

 

[Sancho]

Money does not grow on trees. The good news is that F4 standard funding and development is on track. And first operational bricks of the new standard will come as soon as 2023.

Of course not and shown, funding is an issue for Rafale upgrades as well, which is often denied. The F4 launch is funded, but what exactly it will include and when what will be available, is a matter of negotiation. F4.1 reportedly will include only software upgrades, F4.2. will then add the hardware and full operational capability, whatever that may be then.

One more reason why president Macron is pushing for joint EU defence and EF + Rafale replacements.

 

[mattster]

I really feel sorry for any IAF chief. its the most impossible military job in the world.
It seems like they are caught between an impossible vortex of competing forces that looks like a endless nightmarish black hole:

1) immature local aircraft industry eco system that is forcing the obsolete LCA upon the IAF
2) "make in India" policy hell, and all its endless time consuming ramifications with the lack of clarity and suitable Indian technology partners with the skills and experience to actually "make in India".
3) Lifelong Government MOD bureaucrats who are more interested in saving their careers and incapable of making quick decisions thereby requiring ministerial/cabinet level interventions causing years of delays.
4) Endless politicking by opposition parties on defense deals further slowing down badly needed acquisitions.
5) Over-reliance on the Russian technology with poor serviceability and obsolete avionics requiring IAF to get Israeli help with avionics.

The primary task of the IAF Chief is to make sure that he can defend his country and defeat an aggressor in the event of a war. Its not his job to make develop the local aircraft industry.

Given all the above its almost like mission impossible.

 

[Armand2REP]

Reliance Group files Rs5,000 crore defamation suit against Abhishek Manu Singhvi

http://www.moneylife.in/article/ani...suit-against-abhishek-manu-singhvi/52471.html

 

[Kay]

I really feel sorry for any IAF chief. its the most impossible military job in the world.
It seems like they are caught between an impossible vortex of competing forces that looks like a endless nightmarish black hole:

1) immature local aircraft industry eco system that is forcing the obsolete LCA upon the IAF
2) "make in India" policy hell, and all its endless time consuming ramifications with the lack of clarity and suitable Indian technology partners with the skills and experience to actually "make in India".
3) Lifelong Government MOD bureaucrats who are more interested in saving their careers and incapable of making quick decisions thereby requiring ministerial/cabinet level interventions causing years of delays.
4) Endless politicking by opposition parties on defense deals further slowing down badly needed acquisitions.
5) Over-reliance on the Russian technology with poor serviceability and obsolete avionics requiring IAF to get Israeli help with avionics.

The primary task of the IAF Chief is to make sure that he can defend his country and defeat an aggressor in the event of a war. Its not his job to make develop the local aircraft industry.

Given all the above its almost like mission impossible.

Yes..the job is the same for IAF chief and PLAAF chief and all other chiefs - getting the job done in the best possible manner with the resources given to you - the job is not lobbying for foreign goods.

 

[WolfPack86]

I am afraid the govt will not order another 36 rafales because opposition is hell bent on questioning govt on rafale deal. 5 MPS of different parties have send notice in parliment to discuss rafale deal on monday. Looks like opposition and media are favouring EuroFighter Typhoon it seems both of them got money from their boss. In worst case if govt order another twin engine fighter jet contest it will be waste of time and money.

 

[Kay]

I am afraid the govt will not order another 36 rafales because opposition is hell bent on questioning govt on rafale deal. 5 MPS of different parties have send notice in parliment to discuss rafale deal on monday. Looks like opposition and media are favouring EuroFighter Typhoon it seems both of them got money from their boss. In worst case if govt order another twin engine fighter jet contest it will be waste of time and money.

Nothing will get ordered before 2019. Even after that, if anything is ordered, it will be Rafales - though that too is not necessary.

 

[Kshithij]

I am afraid the govt will not order another 36 rafales because opposition is hell bent on questioning govt on rafale deal. 5 MPS of different parties have send notice in parliment to discuss rafale deal on monday. Looks like opposition and media are favouring EuroFighter Typhoon it seems both of them got money from their boss. In worst case if govt order another twin engine fighter jet contest it will be waste of time and money.

Is this even a valid reasoning? Opposition will jump up and down everyday. Did that change anything till now?

Let us not assume anything

 

[Armand2REP]

I am afraid the govt will not order another 36 rafales because opposition is hell bent on questioning govt on rafale deal. 5 MPS of different parties have send notice in parliment to discuss rafale deal on monday. Looks like opposition and media are favouring EuroFighter Typhoon it seems both of them got money from their boss. In worst case if govt order another twin engine fighter jet contest it will be waste of time and money.

I am hoping the govt will double down and order more to dilute the unit price. It will make their numbers look better and with the Reliance defamation suit in progress could bring down the opposition. Typhoon will certainly not be ordered by this government, only if elections go south could that happen.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter will improve India's air to air warfare capability.

 

[WolfPack86]

India's rafale fighter with 75% fleet availability.

 

[WolfPack86]

A citizen dashing Ajai Shukla in a twitter

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian govt should order additional 100 rafales for IAF.

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale along with Sukhoi 30 mki can counter china and defend India's air space.