Know Your 'Rafale'

[Mad Indian]

Haha, did you get the subtle bullshzit from sarkorzy? He is making it a political spin with that statement . India did not chose the French because of the confidence it had in their administration or economy as he claims. It was price point after they found both aircrafts upto their requirement standard.

Oh please his statements in turn confirms the reality that the Rafale was able to deliver in a cheaper price with same service indicating the strength of the French economy.....

 

[sob]

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

Having lost out on the multi-billion Indian Air Force contract, the Pentagon said American fighter jets - F-16 and F-18 - would have provided India unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price.

"We are extremely confident that the F/A-18IN and F-16IN would have provided the Indian Air Force unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price," the Pentagon spokesman Cmdr Leslie Hull-Ryde said.

"As you know, our platforms are derived from combat proven fighter aircraft and represent the cutting-edge of proven technology," Hull-Ryde said.

The Pentagon remarks came a day after India announced that the French company Dassault Aviation has emerged as the lowest bidder for its multi-billion fighter jet deal, beating out the Eurofighter Typhoon.

In April India had already rejected the bids of two American fighters' jets along with that of the Russians and Swedish.

Hull-Ryde clarified that there has been no offer to sell F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) to India.

"Should India indicate interest in purchasing the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc) to support India's future planning," she said.

Read more at: F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

 

[Bhon]

.

Can you back up any of your claims about the hornet failing with official claims by the Indian government ? You put a whole lot of information that I never read...

Russia did not agree to your sanction you say? Then tell us why Russia did not offer you a civilian nuke deal or why they did not go against the NSG to supply you uranium prior to the US opening the door?

It's one thing to be unappreciative but another to be willfully ignorant. Btw do you know that a decade from now you need the aussie supply? You don't do you.? None of the others can give you the quantity or grade of uranium you need given your robust expansion of your nuclear plants planned. I know more about about your country . LOL. You don't even know why the Indian govt was aggressive in asking the Aussies to export its uranium. Here you sit India and you have no clue why India wanted the Aussies to export to them. How shameful?..

You DO know that India has the world's largest Thorium sand deposits right ? That's uranium which is a tad bit costly to extract, which is the reason why we went for the deal. No, don't take my word for it. Google or research it up in any way and see if I'm wrong.

 

[Neil]

comparison is in daily mail....!!

 

[Neil]

Beyond the Rafale deal

India's decision to select Dassault Aviation of France to supply 126 Rafale multi-role fighters caps a process that began in 2007 to replace the Indian Air Force's ageing MiG-21s and augment its fleet of Sukhoi 30MKIs. Given the size of the contract — which, at upwards of $10 billion, is the largest defence deal struck by India — the acquisition of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) was viewed in many quarters as a purchase in which political and strategic considerations would, or even should, play a role. Such a view was bolstered by the fact that each of the six competing aircraft originally short-listed had a lot to offer, the differences between them lying more along the perimeter than in the core. That technical and commercial factors prevailed over extra-contractual considerations became evident when the competition, following a slew of technical tests, was narrowed to two — the Rafale and the Typhoon, produced by a consortium of four European countries. Clearly, the selection process was uninfluenced by the United States administration, which had lobbied hard in favour of Boeing's F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16, suggesting that the acquisition of either was an important element in forging a closer strategic relationship. The rejection of the U.S.-manufactured aircraft underlined that we had, as one commentator wryly but wrongly noted, "settled for a plane, not a relationship."

At the same time, it would be naïve to assume that arms purchases, particularly big ticket ones by a large nation such as India, are free from strategic implications or considerations. Indeed, for India, the Rafale acquisition widens its strategic options in a world where multi-polarity is a fact of life. At a more immediate level, the decision to buy the fighters, which has been greeted with unabashed glee in Paris, could provide the leverage for India to hold France to its promise of increasing cooperation across a whole range of areas, but especially in the nuclear and defence fields, including the greater sharing of technology and expertise. Of particular interest to New Delhi, is the question of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) equipment transfers.

The Nuclear Suppliers Group reneged on its 2008 bargain with India last year by banning the sale of ENR items but France — a key member of the nuclear cartel — has said it will not be bound by the new restrictions. The French must now be held to their word. As for the IAF, the acquisition of the Rafales may stem, in the near- or medium-term, the problem of the reducing number of squadrons. However, the IAF's long-term combat aircraft requirements will need to be met by developing the promised fifth-generation fighter in cooperation with Russia and overcoming the problems that have delayed the induction of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.


Beyond the Rafale deal | idrw.org

 

[Kunal Biswas]

comparison is in daily mail....!!

Flawed..

.......................................

 

[amitkriit]

You DO know that India has the world's largest Thorium sand deposits right ? That's uranium which is a tad bit costly to extract, which is the reason why we went for the deal. No, don't take my word for it. Google or research it up in any way and see if I'm wrong.

Civil Nuclear Deal was a bribe from USA to India to keep India away from Iran. This was not a charity, Uncle Sam is not well known for providing free lunch. US government under Obama undid whatever progress was made after and during the Indo-US nuclear deal and hence India corrected her steps, which is natural and the right thing to do. Question is what did we get from USA after the deal? Nothing? Why are countries like France, Japan, Russia happily dealing with us, while the English block of USA, Canada, UK and Australia are finding India a very cunning and unreliable partner? They are doing something very wrong, aren't they?

Problem doesn't lie here, problem is in their attitude, they want India to become their lapdog, which India is not willing to do. They need to grow out of their colonial mindset, they can do all the propaganda claiming high moral ground, they can make their people think like that, but Indians know well what is in our best interest, we are intelligent people. 1/6th of humanity deserves some respect.

 

[Mad Indian]

Man I don't mean to insult people but really when you give me such idiotic replies, I can't help but think " am I the only intelligent one on this forum?"

First of all the CIsmo etc issues is not an " Indian military head" objection, there was great article many months ago that explained how your defense heads had no issue with it, it was the Indian govt that threw objections over it for ' political' resons. It's late here and hopefully I can find that article that was posted on these forums tomorrow.

Second the issue over various TOT - I already addressed in my previous post. It was a mistake on America's behalf and was acknowledged by the govt. Regardless, you are still lacking a counter to my pure logical stance of - why would you pay 10 billion dollars more (20 billion deal for this aircraft) for a TOT that is going to obselte in slightly over 10 years ? Why when you have TOT on the FGFA? Makes no sense to me. You have the mother of TOT in FGFA....

Example: you have TOT to build a Porsche ( FGFA) , why would you pay twice of what you need ( 20 billion on dassault), and buy a maruti, when every aircraft in your tender was far superior to F16, J10b and J17?


Next your example of. " when w explode nukes" . I have repeatedly said those who make such statements are kids on the forum. You will never explode nukes, because FvUK the US , you will face economic sanctions from the world, you will not have Aussies export you jack, you will have all civilian nuke deals shut down, you will have worldwide export sanctions levied. What you idiots who claim future nuclear tests don't get is, you will be treated like a pariah, loke Iran, like NKorea. There are UN sanctions in place for any countey performing nuclear tests that all countries have signed including India going forward. Geniuses like your kind have not figured out why nuclear test means being sanctioned severely by the world.

Hey genius Just answer this, will the world sanction the US (now) or the Chinese(five years later) if ever you do any nuke test...???? My guess as most people (sane ones anyway) will agree that there wont be any sanctions... So hoping that Indians(who will be in the same position in twenty years wont be indulging in any nuke test for the fear of sanctions is the work of the weed at its best......

 

[Neil]

Flawed..

.......................................

know that kunal sir....it just the way brits r going crazy like pakistanis is amusing...!!

 

[weg]

Man I don't mean to insult people but really when you give me such idiotic replies, I can't help but think " am I the only intelligent one on this forum?"

Do you realize how you sound to even a neutral observer?

 

[Mad Indian]

.

Can you back up any of your claims about the hornet failing with official claims by the Indian government ? You put a whole lot of information that I never read...

Russia did not agree to your sanction you say? Then tell us why Russia did not offer you a civilian nuke deal or why they did not go against the NSG to supply you uranium prior to the US opening the door?

It's one thing to be unappreciative but another to be willfully ignorant. Btw do you know that a decade from now you need the aussie supply? You don't do you.? None of the others can give you the quantity or grade of uranium you need given your robust expansion of your nuclear plants planned. I know more about about your country . LOL. You don't even know why the Indian govt was aggressive in asking the Aussies to export its uranium. Here you sit India and you have no clue why India wanted the Aussies to export to them. How shameful?..

Hey read history before speaking non sense..... Russia was co operating with us in the nuclear field and is intensifying its efforts after the deal:cool2::cool2:.... And it was not the whole world which sanctioned us MORON... It was just the US and its lackeys Along with Chinese... And Australian uranium is just to kick start the nuclear programme for NOW while the future nuke programme is going to be entirely based on thorium(of which India has the largest deposit in the world)...

 

[Mad Indian]

Civil Nuclear Deal was a bribe from USA to India to keep India away from Iran. This was not a charity, Uncle Sam is not well known for providing free lunch. US government under Obama undid whatever progress was made after and during the Indo-US nuclear deal and hence India corrected her steps, which is natural and the right thing to do. Question is what did we get from USA after the deal? Nothing? Why are countries like France, Japan, Russia happily dealing with us, while the English block of USA, Canada, UK and Australia are finding India a very cunning and unreliable partner? They are doing something very wrong, aren't they?

Problem doesn't lie here, problem is in their attitude, they want India to become their lapdog, which India is not willing to do. They need to grow out of their colonial mindset, they can do all the propaganda claiming high moral ground, they can make their people think like that, but Indians know well what is in our best interest, we are intelligent people. 1/6th of humanity deserves some respect.

Exactly, and all of the countries finding it difficult to work with us are all USA's lackeys(big surprise there)... And someone here(everyone knows who it is) cant understand this simple logic..

 

[arya]

well that good for IAF

now we need to look pakfa

 

[methos]

Last tme I heard the Taurus missile was offered to IAF for outfitting the MKI..

Is Rafale also Taurus compatible ?

Yes, It is..

Actually it is not. ATM Taurus is even not fully integrated into the Eurofighter (tests have been done in 2009, but the last time I've read about it it said that it is still being integrated). The Germans use it with the Tornado and the Spainards use their F-18 for Taurus missiles.

The website of the developer/producer Taurus Systems GmbH (joint venture of LFK [MBDA subsidary] and Saab Bofors) features a list of vehicles in which the Taurus is integrated or for which integration is planned. The Rafale is not mentioned there, but neither was the Mk.I. They probably won't try to integrate this missile in any of these two aircraft until India decides to buy it - then it should take 2 - 5 years and the Rafale/Mk.I will be Taurus capable. Choosing Storm Shadow (working with both EF and Rafale) or Apache (Storm Shadow version made for French) seems more likely (as it is already integrated and cheaper [Storm Shadow]), even though these missiles are slightly less capable.

 

[SpArK]

Flanker and Rafale recovery




Indian SU-30MKI's and French Rafales recovering after the first day of Red Flag 08-4. Callsign for the 1st batch of flankers were 'Sword', Rafales 'Rocket', and the last flankers were 'Raider'.

 

[Neil]

India's Technology Windfall And U.S. Myopia

Yesterday brought news that India has selected France's Dassault as the preferred bidder for a hundred or more advanced fighter aircraft, the Rafale, in a deal worth up to $30 billion over ten years. Russia, the US and the Eurofighter consortium had also bid on the deal and the deal was so coveted that President Obama personally pushed the US bids on his last visit to India. The U.S. amabassador to India resigned the day after the U.S. bid was rejected.
But while the public talk from India is of a better airframe, more able to withstand the Indian climate, I strongly suspect that the real reason the Rafale won the bidding war is that French President Nicholas Sarkozy had last year promised an unprecedented technology transfer, including machine tools and military secrets, if the French plane won - a promise he has now said France will keep to. Only the Russian bid offered anything similiar, and india is well aware Russian tech does not meet Euro heights.
So, in ten years time India will have the plants and the know-how to make advanced military aircraft - and the technology will have rapidly filtered into other areas of Indian manufacturing, giving India a massive leg up in its bid for superpowerdom. The deal was too sweet not to take, and the U.S. government was foolish and prideful not to offer something similiar. Indeed, U.S. policy towards India has been extrordinarily myopic for years, perhaps because the major military and foreign policy apparatchiks have been befuddled by General Kayani of Pakistan's Jedi mind tricks and false promises of more complete Pakistani co-operation. Pakistan's primary economic and military ally is and will remain China, not America, and it's about time U.S. administrations recognised this.
India, the natural counter-balance to China, is feeling ignored and unloved by the U.S. after the false spring of Bush's nuclear giveaway and the bipartisan rush to sell India lots of expensive but obsolescent weaponry. And it's trying to create a new strategy that accepts the reality of America and the West's continuing bamboozlement by Pakistan - including through outreach to nations like Iran. India is well aware that war between the regional superpowers is not at all unlikely in the future but like China would prefer economic battles. Technology transfers like the Rafale deal give India a leg up either way, and if America wants a powerful democratic ally in the region it should be offering such transfers at every opportunity rather than leaving it to Europe to become India's preferred future trading partner.



India's Technology Windfall And U.S. Myopia | The Agonist

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Former air chiefs hail 'free and fair' selection of Rafale
India Today, Feb 2

It took two years for the Indian Air Force to work out the formula to calculate the lifecycle costs of multi-role combat aircraft that were in the fray for the mega deal for purchase of 126 jets.
Former air chiefs have hailed the selection of Rafale as an important milestone for IAF which desperately needed new jets and complimented the selection team for ensuring the process was fair and transparent.

"It was the first time that the complex calculation was used in an Indian military contract and the IAF consulted experts from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Harvard University and even Metroman E. Sreedharan," former air chief S.P Tyagi said.
Former air chief P.V. Naik, who was at the helm last year, said it was a good step. He said the credit for keeping the bidding process fair goes to a team that was set up to spearhead the contract.
Naik's predecessor Tyagi gave some more insights. He said the formula to calculate lifecycle cost was worked out keeping in mind that it should not suit a particular vendor.
It has taken a decade for the contract to reach at a stage where final price negotiations will be held with French company Dassault, the maker of Rafale.
Dassault has emerged winner out of a pack of six including Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, which were eliminated last April along with Sweden's Gripen and Russia's Mig-35.

FRom:
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/f.../1/171721.html

 

[asianobserve]

What do you think of the fact that of all the countries where the Rafale was offered only India selected it for a buy... Indian introversion? :shocked:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Real Reasons for Rafale's Indian Victory

PARIS --- While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India's selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

This is not to say, however, that Rafale's own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India's Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force's logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France's steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India's nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi's real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale's final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany's Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion's worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, which Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft's reputation of being high-priced.

The French offer also featured substantially lower costs of ownership, according to the same reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and simpler maintenance requirements.

If true, these figures imply the French offer undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which is a large enough difference for one French insider to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever make any money on the contract.

But, even if it doesn't, the Indian contract gives Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the thoroughness and transparency of the bidding process, but also because India is the only country to have fought four and a half major wars since 1948, and so knows something about air combat.

For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain active, with a stabilized production line, for decades to come, and the company will have that much more time to find additional customers. Keeping its production line and supply chain humming at an economically-viable rate are sufficiently valuable achievements to push immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting 126 – and possibly 206, if India buys an optional second batch – combat aircraft, and providing spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40 years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more than justified lowering Dassault's notoriously high profit margins.

And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet told reporters during an impromptu press conference in Parliament, France may soon find "that good news travels in formation," implying that further, long-deferred contracts might soon be announced.

Full article:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-in-india.html

 

[rock127]

This is reaching 1000 posts in a record time...