Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kunal Biswas]

What do you think of the fact that of all the countries where the Rafale was offered only India selected it for a buy... Indian introversion? :shocked:

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France's steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India's nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions.

Post : #954

 

[Indianboy]

Strategic lift in Rafale tailwind

The fighter deal is expected to add momentum to France's interest in working with India in intelligence sharing and nuclear technology

As the dejected consortium of four European countries scales down its operations here after losing the biggest-ever single Indian military tender to a France-dominated grouping, Paris will now be looking to enter into a new era of relationship with New Delhi encompassing intelligence sharing, nuclear enrichment and reprocessing and even joint production of sub-theatre range missiles.

Senior officials in South Block, however, discounted any direct correlation between the fighter order and these issues. Each will be dealt with by the two countries on its own merit and it would be immature to conclude that both sides will plunge headlong into enduring partnerships in all these areas because of the fighter tender going France's way. But the deal, they feel, will give momentum to France's interest in working with India on key global issues including changes in the international nuclear order.

Fighter trials

From India's self-interest, it was fortuitous that the gap in the prices between the fighters offered by the French and the four-nation European consortium was large enough for other factors such as the contentious and subjective lifecycle costs not to come into play. It was also fortuitous that the canopy of the Russian fighter (MiG-35) came off during the trials, enabling National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon to inform the Kremlin about the technical unsuitability of its offering, thus removing another major pressure point.

The Americans, of course, knew their onerous and politically weighted sting in the tail in the form of inspection requirements and Saudi utilisation of the F-16 variant offered to India for a role not suiting the Indian Air Force's list of requirements allowed New Delhi to knock Lockheed Martin out of the reckoning. The second American offer, from Boeing (F-18), was easy to reject because India had not sought the product and it was included among the six contenders under pressure from Washington. The last contender, from Sweden (Gripen), was also easy to eliminate because of its light weight characteristics.

These factors helped the Ministry of Defence continue with its stand that the technical characteristics of the fighter and the price were the only two criteria at play while selecting the winner for the order, which will swell in value with New Delhi planning to add 60 fighters to the originally tendered 126.

For over a decade, since the controversial and exciting days of India's second series of nuclear tests in 1998 and the Kargil war of 1999, South Block has recognised the steadfastness of France in standing by India. It was perhaps the only country that did not cancel its maritime exercises after the Pokhran tests as compared with some others that happily went beyond the requirements of sovereignty by seizing Indian defence equipment to appease another country, which had sold components for that military system, that had decided to punish India by imposing sanctions.

Long-term ties

A year later, France stood solidly behind India — along with Russia and Israel — when the conflict over the Kargil heights erupted. Going to war with minimal war reserves, field level commanders at that time, who are now general rank officers, recall how the IAF's Mirage fighters blasted bunkers in seemingly impregnable positions after the MiGs had not performed up to expectations.

With Dassault's factory saved from being mothballed, New Delhi would now expect France to standby the commitment made by its President Nicholas Sarkozy for a ``complete'' civil nuclear partnership with India that would include enrichment and reprocessing (ENR), which is sought to be denied by the cartel of nuclear technology suppliers to countries like India that they think do not conform to their norms.

Unknown to the public at large, France and India joined hands in the civil nuclear field two years after Independence. That agreement to extract thorium from monazite sand didn't work out but France opened its doors to the young Turks of the Indian civil nuclear establishment leading to cooperation in setting up a fast breeder reactor. This partnership was to continue despite the 1974 nuclear test that led to the transAtlantic cartel to put the squeeze on India lasting for over three decades.

It is also not known that the 1998 visit of Jacques Chirac led to talks on French company Areva opening talks for setting up six nuclear power plants, the second country after Russia to do so, while the rest of Europe and the U.S. were plotting to emasculate the Indian nuclear industry by placing technology transfer restrictions and blacklisting Indian companies. It is natural that after Russia, Indian nuclear scientists have developed confidence in the French ability to stand by their word on civil nuclear matters.

With the character of the French mission here changing into one where intelligence sharing is given importance, officials expect an impetus to revive the relationship that existed earlier on observing the Indian Ocean. France had set up two listening stations on the western coast that were manned by India's intelligence personnel. These were to be linked with the ones planned by Iran and France in what was to be a trilateral partnership. But the overthrow of the Shah of Iran put paid to these moves. Although Iran is now out of the picture, the France-India alliance would not want a third partner because surveillance capabilities have since been boosted by greater potency of spy satellites.

More intimate alliances in the nuclear, military and intelligence fields would also allow India to spread its influence in western Africa, known as France's backyard. India has already started expanding its diplomatic presence in these countries and a helping hand from France would add to its stand-alone exertions.

Just like in the nuclear field, what is not known to the public is that the Cheetah and the Chetak — the wasp-like helicopters seen flitting across snow encrusted mountains to service Indian soldiers perched on the heights of the Siachen and the Himalayas — are of French origin. So are the new submarines currently being assembled in Mumbai. France has already been allocated land to set up six nuclear power reactors. But it has always complained that India remains an Anglo-Saxon zone of influence. The order for fighters (and the earlier Rs.10,000-crore deal for modernising the existing IAF fleet of 50-odd Mirage fighters) would help substantially disabuse this notion and set the stage where both countries, which have always professed respect for each other's national security interests and shared the quest for strategic autonomy, could help further democratise global politics as well as help each other.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article2851361.ece

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[asianobserve]

Think again, France has supplied Pakistan with fighters, special mission planes, submarines, boats, MANPADS and anti-tank weapons.

 

[Singh]

Having lost out on the multi-billion Indian Air Force contract, the Pentagon said American fighter jets - F-16 and F-18 - would have provided India unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price.

"We are extremely confident that the F/A-18IN and F-16IN would have provided the Indian Air Force unbeatable platforms with proven technologies at a competitive price," the Pentagon spokesman Cmdr Leslie Hull-Ryde said.

"As you know, our platforms are derived from combat proven fighter aircraft and represent the cutting-edge of proven technology," Hull-Ryde said.

Hull-Ryde clarified that there has been no offer to sell F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) to India.

"Should India indicate interest in purchasing the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc) to support India's future planning," she said.

Read more at: F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

 

[Neil]

kunal sir...the link of the 954th post is not working....

 

[amitkriit]

kunal sir...the link of the 954th post is not working....

The Real Reasons for Rafale's Indian Victory

 

[Indianboy]

Sexy indeed...:thumb:

 

[pankaj nema]

Think again, France has supplied Pakistan with fighters, special mission planes, submarines, boats, MANPADS and anti-tank weapons.

Very recently France refused to sell avionics to Pakistan for its JF 17 planes

It was a 1.6 billion dollar deal 32 million per plane for 50 planes

And after that India has sealed deals worth 3.2 billion dollars ie Mirage upgrade and MICA missiles

Now a days High tech Arms sales to Pakistan is like a sale to China because Chinese engineers
are all over the equipment

So high tech goodies for Pakistan whether from US or Europe are frowned upon

Therefore F 16 block 52 are monitored by US supervisors round the clock and are stationed at
ONLY one base

 

[pankaj nema]

For India The Rafale purchase has one more dimension

Having earlier failed to sell Rafale ,France was very vocal about lifting the WESTERN Arms embargo on
China AND USA had to always mollify and pacify them

Eurofighter having seen more orders is unlikely to break ranks and be tempted by China

And Rafale is in Indian Camp

So for India it gives us plenty of time to build up our forces

 

[Indianboy]

Some posts from BR:

"Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well."

"Another plus is that this keeps the Rafale away from the Cheenis. The Frenchies were pushing for lifting of Euro arms sanctions on China, but this will give them no incentive to do so. I do think that there will be clauses in the contract saying no sales of same thing to Pakiland and China."

"And yeah, despite all protestations to the contrary, this WAS a packaged deal with the Snecma-Kaveri JV , they were waiting for this for that deal to be signed. Now they will have the required no of airframes (LCA MK-II, MLU of MK1 & MKII, later batches of Rafale, Rafale MLU and AMCA) to put in a big production run of that engine. Jai ho. That would be REALLY sweet and you can show the ungli to Unkil and his poodles forever."

 

[Neil]

David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty (Al-Guardian)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...eb/02/davidcameron-sonia-gandhi?newsfeed=true

 

[Nagraj]

David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty | Politics | guardian.co.uk

The Britishers are morons to put it mildly

 

[bhramos]

Rafale Tiger Lady

 

[Nagraj]

^^ This one is better

 

[Param]

^^ This one is better

It looks like flying pink candy.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

look whos joined the party

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

F-18 possibly F-16 no. I don't think F-16 had a chance of winning the thought of having to buy a plane
that your neighbor is getting free(a higher block=more $$) is a terrible selling point.

 

[trackwhack]

You Americans have a CONDESCENDING attitude towards India

Just because you gave us the N deal passport we ARE not going to accept everything that you say

Do you KNOW that when we asked for maximum TOT and OFFSETS your Lockheed Martin
and Boeing guys QUESTIONED whether INDIANS can Manufacture such High tech items in India

And we have already bought some 10 Billion Dollars worth of WEAPONS POST the Nuclear Deal
like C 17; P8 I; C 130 ; M177 Howitzers ; Apaches Helicopters ; JAvelin ATGM
and Air to ground sensor fused bombs and Anti ship Harpoons

We are your THIRD Largest Arms BUYER . CAPISCE !!!

Pankaj, Lets get one thing straight. Having an American flag pasted on his profile does not make His Awesomeness The Great JayATL American.

Our dear friend is a Mallu Lungi Chettan sitting in some American town trying do come to terms with the reality of an identity shift. Doing his desperate best to honor the oath that allowed him a green card.

I dont know why the mods tolerate this buffoon, who on this single thread has gone about abusing nearly every poster because they differ with his views.

 

[Nagraj]

^^^Dude your comments are racist . Please edit your post.

 

[sayareakd]

^^ This one is better

that will be for our ladies pilots.