Know Your 'Rafale'

pankaj nema

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Oh yes , we have hanger queens. We should learn from your aviafion wins and technologies
Please CONVINCE us as WHY we should buy some plane which is NOT READY ; Has a waiting LIST
of 2500 planes already So we have to wait till 2030

And ABOVE all WHY should we ACCEPT stupid things like CISMOA ; EUMA; BECA; LSA
WITHOUT which we will NOT GET your ADVANCED technologies
 

JayATL

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Dude just bear with us..for we , mere mortals , cannot hope to match sanity with a rocket scientist who night-shifts as a chess grandmaster.



Political or military bot are organs of the Indian executive and they had objections which the US could not address it. Check.



Yes it was mistake and the Americans paid for it. And since you claim to know all, let me add to the existing knowledge of yours - that in avionics field the Russians are not upto date with that the West has to offer and we want the best that is there on offer from Russia and West.

And the cost you mentioned is pure speculation -- its neither $20 billion for Rafale nor $10 billion for Hornets. Moreover the new infra/logistics for Hornet will drive up the unit cost further while the existing Mirage infra can be used for Rafale.

Also just accpet the fact IAF which evaluated the aircraft knows atleast a wee bit more than you when it comes to fighters and move on. The Hornets were rejected on technical grounds too and reportedly they could not lift off from the Leh wih full load while the Rafale did it with ease.




Trademark Jay BS. The Hornet was tested extensively in varying climes over 7 months and was found wanting. The report was sent to Boeing and if there was any contradiction they would have appealed it. The fact that they chose to remain silent says that the Hornet indeed failed those tests or could not match up with the Rafale/EFT.





No world did not sanction us last time we exploded. Russia did not sanction and France did not sanction. How many times do I need to tell you that ?

And fcuk the Aussies, we have enough Uranium from France, Russia, Namibia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan for our future needs.
.

Can you back up any of your claims about the hornet failing with official claims by the Indian government ? You put a whole lot of information that I never read...

Russia did not agree to your sanction you say? Then tell us why Russia did not offer you a civilian nuke deal or why they did not go against the NSG to supply you uranium prior to the US opening the door?

It's one thing to be unappreciative but another to be willfully ignorant. Btw do you know that a decade from now you need the aussie supply? You don't do you.? None of the others can give you the quantity or grade of uranium you need given your robust expansion of your nuclear plants planned. I know more about about your country . LOL. You don't even know why the Indian govt was aggressive in asking the Aussies to export its uranium. Here you sit India and you have no clue why India wanted the Aussies to export to them. How shameful?..
 
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pankaj nema

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Oh yes , we have hanger queens. We should learn from your aviafion wins and technologies

You Americans have a CONDESCENDING attitude towards India

Just because you gave us the N deal passport we ARE not going to accept everything that you say

Do you KNOW that when we asked for maximum TOT and OFFSETS your Lockheed Martin
and Boeing guys QUESTIONED whether INDIANS can Manufacture such High tech items in India

And we have already bought some 10 Billion Dollars worth of WEAPONS POST the Nuclear Deal
like C 17; P8 I; C 130 ; M177 Howitzers ; Apaches Helicopters ; JAvelin ATGM
and Air to ground sensor fused bombs and Anti ship Harpoons

We are your THIRD Largest Arms BUYER . CAPISCE !!!
 
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JayATL

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Please CONVINCE us as WHY we should buy some plane which is NOT READY ; Has a waiting LIST
of 2500 planes already So we have to wait till 2030

And ABOVE all WHY should we ACCEPT stupid things like CISMOA ; EUMA; BECA; LSA
WITHOUT which we will NOT GET your ADVANCED technologies
Firstly, why do you not research or are aware of facts is freaking mind boggling. EUMA , CISMO. Blah blah has. Even clearly stated by the military chiefs as not being ANY issue. It is a pure Indian govt political game /ploy. Again- it has no issue , problems with your military heads.

Second, why buy our stuff is secondary, the debate 10 pages ago was if you are to issue a new tender for an additional 80 aircrafts like cited in the article , allow those who have ot been inthe proceess to dare, then pray tell me, why would you go for anything short of a 5th gen aircraft? Why would one open a new tender, as reported, to buy aircrafts you have already rejected for the Rafael and waste time?
 

KS

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Can you back up any of your claims about the hornet failing with official claims by the Indian government ? You put a whole lot of information that I never read...
What backup ? It's common sense. for a guy who claims to have the second most critical thinking abilities after Obi wan Kenobi it should have been obvious.

The six contenders were tested in the same fashion in three different climes (desert, sea level and high altitude) over 9 months w.r.t to 643 different technical parameters and based on that four were rejected in April 2011.

The entire technical evaluation was transparent and the results were sent out to all the vendors after the down select. So if there was any discrepancy other than genuine technical snags then the respective vendor would have appealed against the decision because this was too big a deal to back off without a fight.

What happened ? All the four vendors LM, Boeing, Saab and Mig accepted the report and remained silent. This shows without an iota of doubt that they indeed did not match upto the Rafale and EF in many parameters which the IAF desired.



Russia did not agree to your sanction you say? Then tell us why Russia did not offer you a civilian nuke deal or why they did not go against the NSG to supply you uranium prior to the US opening the door?
Because lets face, Russia was not the Soviet Union and did not have the diplomatic clout US had. But nevertheless they did not impose any economic, military sanctions on us and so did the French.


It's one thing to be unappreciative but another to be willfully ignorant. Btw do you know that a decade from now you need the aussie supply? You don't do you.? None of the others can give you the quantity or grade of uranium you need given your robust expansion of your nuclear plants planned. I know more about about your country . LOL. You don't even know why the Indian govt was aggressive in asking the Aussies to export its uranium. Here you sit India and you have no clue why India wanted the Aussies to export to them. How shameful?..
India wanted the Aussies to export them because the Aussies not exporting was perceived to be contradictory to the "clean waiver" NSG granted India and to Australia's own desire for strategic relationship with India.

Other than that the quantity of the Uranium itself did not play much role as between France, Russia, kazakhstan, Namibia, Mongolia and ourselves we have more than enough Uranium for our present and future needs.BTW if you are indeed as well versed in international affairs as you claim you must know after the initial reqeust Indian Govt could not care less for Aussie Uranium and it was the Australian mine lobby which pressured their own govt into selling India, Uranium not wanting to loose the huge market in India.
 
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JayATL

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You Americans have a CONDESCENDING attitude towards India

Just because you gave us the N deal passport we ARE not going to accept everything that you say

Do you KNOW that when we asked for maximum TOT and OFFSETS your Lockheed Martin
and Boeing guys QUESTIONED whether INDIANS can Manufacture such High tech items in India

And we have already bought some 10 Billion Dollars worth of WEAPONS POST the Nuclear Deal
like C 17; P8 I; C 130 ; M177 Howitzers ; Apaches Helicopters ; JAvelin ATGM
and Air to ground sensor fused bombs and Anti ship Harpoons

We are your THIRD Largest Arms BUYER . CAPISCE !!!
Let me get this Mary Jane . We have a condescending attitude and you called our aircraft a hanger queen first. Then ray wonders why I call you guys imbeciles.
 

pankaj nema

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Firstly, why do you not research or are aware of facts is freaking mind boggling. EUMA , CISMO. Blah blah has. Even clearly stated by the military chiefs as not being ANY issue. It is a pure Indian govt political game /ploy. Again- it has no issue , problems with your military heads.

Second, why buy our stuff is secondary, the debate 10 pages ago was if you are to issue a new tender for an additional 80 aircrafts like cited in the article , allow those who have ot been inthe proceess to dare, then pray tell me, why would you go for anything short of a 5th gen aircraft? Why would one open a new tender, as reported, to buy aircrafts you have already rejected for the Rafael and waste time?
GOD you are really crazy

All this talk of second tender for planes is BS Nothing of that sort will happen
We will buy more Rafales ONLY

Rafale Su 30mki and PAK FA is ENOUGH for us

Secondly Our PM and MEA were keen to sign on the CISMOA EUMA and other DEBILITATING Pacts
TO please the USA which would severely crippled IAF's functioning and strategic autonomy

BUT IAF put its foot down and GOI was RATHER forced to reject the US planes
 

JayATL

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What backup ? It's common sense.

The six contenders were tested in the same fashion in three different climes (desert, sea level and high altitude) over 9 months w.r.t to 643 different technical parameters and based on that four were rejected in April 2011.

The entire technical evaluation was transparent and the results were sent out to all the vendors after the down select. So if there was any discrepancy other than genuine technical snags then the respective vendor would have appealed against the decision because this was too big a deal to back off without a fight.

What happened ? All the four vendors LM, Boeing, Saab and Mig accepted the report and remained silent. This shows without an iota of doubt that they indeed did not match upto the Rafale and EF in many parameters which the IAF desired.





Because lets face, Russia was not the Soviet Union and did not have the diplomatic clout US had. But nevertheless they did not impose any economic, military sanctions on us and so did the French.




India wanted the Aussies to export them because the Aussies not exporting was perceived to be contradictory to the "clean waiver" NSG granted India and to Australia's own desire for strategic relationship with India.

Other than that the quantity of the Uranium itself did not play much role as between France, Russia, kazakhstan, Namibia, Mongolia and ourselves we have more than enough Uranium for our present and future needs.
YouR kind makes me look like a genius. You claimed at first that the hornet lost because it had issues at high altitudes. I asked for proof and you squirm out by saying it common sense .

Then you claim Russia which had the clout to build nuclear installations in Iran , suddenly was shy because of us the BIG, BAD USA. To wait on the BIG BAD , USA , to Take a first go at it.


And finally, this one is hilarious, that Aussie exporting it to the India was because it was an " image" issue with the NSG. You still have not researched why India wants the Aussie uranium have ya? You have no clue why India pushed for it hard. You have no clue about India's , nuclear plant expansion,and aambitions that drove that need. Do any if you guys read up on anything ever?
 

Kunal Biswas

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HAL lands a fortune as Rafale arrives





HAL now hopes to clinch a business volume of about Rs 20,000-25,000 crore from rolling out Rafales in the next 10 years. "These are rough estimates and a clear picture will only come when we see the fine-print, including ToT details. We will have to see the specific role that will be assigned to us," Deshmukh said. HAL will roll out 108 aircraft under license out of the 126, and 18 planes will be directly supplied by Dassault Aviation.
More here: http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/02...as-rafale.html
 

pankaj nema

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Let me get this Mary Jane . We have a condescending attitude and you called our aircraft a hanger queen first. Then ray wonders why I call you guys imbeciles.
I called ONLY the F35 as a HANGAR queen And why NOT

F 15 ; F 16 ; F 18 ; F117 ; B2 ; are ALL GREAT

Even the Raptor SPENDS Much more time in the Hangar and has SEVERAL technical ISSUES

SO we can say that the UNECONOMICAL Raptor is the HANGAR King
 
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JayATL

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I called ONLY the F35 as a HANGAR queen And why NOT

F 15 ; F 16 ; F 18 ; F117 ; B2 ; are ALL GREAT

Even the Raptor SPENDS Much more time in the Hangar and has SEVERAL technical ISSUES

SO we can say that the UNECONOMICAL Raptor is the HANGAR King
Guy, I have filled my quota for the day of stupid is as stupid says... You are now being ignored in favor of slightly more or less stupid ( depending in how you see it) on these forums. Calling now f22 a hanger queen puts you several notches down from the level of stupidity (comments) I engage with.
 

amitkriit

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Off-topic: I love to see Indians on this forum fighting each other. It proves the fact that we are not indoctrinated mindless zombies. We can think and we can stick to our POV, unlike our not-so-dear friends on our western border west who have got super-human abilities. We can fight, but we keep the best interests of our motherland close to our heart.
 

pankaj nema

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We have to face China NOT NATO

So we are HAPPY with PAK FA and OBVIOUSLY have more TRUST in the RUSSIANS

If we buy F 35 we have to wait till 2030 BECAUSE of the Huge waiting list
of 2500 planes ordered by so many countries

CHINA will NOT WAIT till 2030

And US LOVES to play the GAME called Sanctions

US IMPOSES pacts like CISMOA EUMA

US is NOT comfortable with the Transfer of technology and Industrial OFFSETS

Hence we rejected F 18

Any way the F 18 on offer WAS NOT the latest NOT the same one used by USAF and USN
 
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Mad Indian

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Question: if India sent its taxpayer money as aid to Sri lanka or any country that the LCA was a contender, would you not be pissed too if you lost? if they are indeed giving India 1 billion in aid spread over 4 years, why can't you understand why they are pissed?
You people call it an AID and ask us to repay with interest by doing business with you:confused::confused::confused:.... Some logic you have there or it that how you people understand the word AID in your countries....:confused::confused::confused:


They call it aid and we call it the pay back they are supposed to give out for robbing us for more than 200 years.....:wave::wave:
 

Mad Indian

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I'm too smart for you grasshopper . If any aircraft would give the edge as I have claimed then WHY Pay 2 x to get Tot per aircraft is the question. 1 x is way above price and stupid to pay out let alone 2x. If your contract is 20 billion dollars, you just spent 10 billon dollars more to get TOT on a 4 th gen aircraft that would be near obsolute in slightly over a decade. Your FGFA gives you the TOT you want already.

You know what the Funny part of it is? American congress debated and agreed that we would have given more TOT had we been down selected.

Lastly, prone to what sanction? Not onebloody poster including you has answered me with one single example , I have challenged you and others to several times, to show me one scenario where India maybe sanctioned.

This prone to sanction is hogwash BS. Only way one will be sanctioned is within 3 scenarios I have stated several times here. None of which applies to India.
You call grass hoppers while having a know hows of a high school kid.... We have given you countless examples on how we could be sanctioned, most important among them being testing a nuclear device.... And before you say you yankees have no right to say that we cant test a nuclear device...

Besides the ToT is supposed to help us in developing the 5th gen fighter programs FGFA and AMCA in that order, so i have no problem with spending 10Bn$ just for TOT while maintaining Strategic Autonomy..... So Pi** O**
 

Mad Indian

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No you don't - you are absolutely right. But are you willing for your tax dollars to go to help Pakistan, if it's ISI is sending over terrorist ( an extreme example but point made hopefully the same). They are pissed just like I am about sending my tax dollars to Pakistan .
Apples and oranges.... Since when did WE send terrorists to your SUPRA POWERA countries....????
 

Mad Indian

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Govt send aid vs. private firms , those example you gave are not " taxpayer" funded. you are comparing a private investment to a public funded aid.

There is a correlation between aid and expected back scratching. Every country expects it, if not aid would be a blind lottery i.e. why chose to aid one country over another if you don't see a benefit in it.

You Idiot whether govt or private its the citizen who are gonna have to face the consequences(whether good or bad)... I cant understand how even very intelligent people find it hard to understantd... for instance if that PRIVATE money had not been used to bailout the Brits then, it would have been reinvested in Our Country providing jobs to us instead... You See...???? So dont say there is a big differance between TAXpayer money and private investment shit here... And please stay to the topic(you have not replied to my question still BTW)...
 

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