Know Your 'Rafale'

smestarz

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The point is about having AESA, that is important, whose Radar we buy or borrow thats our headache.
We are talking of planes and about their points,

Super cruises definition means with useful war load, Whatever war load you are saying is just A2A and not "omnirole " load. Thus for super cruise point, you are willing to give away Omni role? PAKFA can do with "multi role war load"

Rafale maneuverable as F-22 hahahahahahaha F-22 can 2D vector which Rafale cannot, su-30 MKI runs rings around Rafale !!!

Try not to get Rafale into something its not.,.. try not to market junk

Excuse me Bro, but you are unaware of a lot of things :

Tejas will may be have an AESA radar, but an Israeli's one. As the actual (and mechanical antenna) one.

Rafale is a supercruiser. Mach 1.3 with 6 Mica. even with one supersonic drop tank it is supercruiser.

Rafale is as manoeuvrable as F22. Just have a look one some very interesting video about Rafale vs F22 in UAE sky.

You don't like Rafale? it's your choice. But don't say untruths.
 

smestarz

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By that Definition, Tejas is not late, its just 25 years of Refinement, Rafale better be aware

France decided to equip Rafale with a PESA radar first, because entry date was intended for 1996 and the AESA tech was not mature enough for those early time.

BUT the radar was from the beginning studied to received easily an EASA antenna. That's why it take only some hours to change a pesa to an aesa antenna on every RBE2.

All the previous software are kept with AESA antenna. Just some new mode are added (that pesa can't use).
That mean the RBE2 AESA has nearly 15 years of refinement in software behind it ! It's the first operationnal european radar, but with 15 years or tests, signals analysis, refinements, data base, new modes... behind it. Even when the Captor E or the Selex radar of Gripen will be there (When? that is the question ....:pound:), they will be unmature radars as RBE2 PESA was in 2001 with the first Rafale M F1 on line.

RBE2 AESA is at least 10 years ahead all the european and russian counterparts, and only some years ahead USA products. :)

A truth, only a truth. Difficult to digest for some...
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale maneuverable as F-22 hahahahahahaha F-22 can 2D vector which Rafale cannot, su-30 MKI runs rings around Rafale !!!
Absolutely no proof of that.
Just Watch the video of Rafale vs F22 in UAE. Rafale is so aerodynamically well studied that it doesn't need TVC. The "TVC" of Rafale are the coupled canards.

Indians Su30 pilots had all occasions to fly against Rafale, during all the annual visits of carrier Charles de Gaulle in India (Garuda exercise). 1) If Rafale was weak, why selecting it, and why continuing to try to purchase it? 2) Never read a sole news (as againt EF) of a Rafale in bad situation vs Su30. Or give it soon !
 

BON PLAN

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By that Definition, Tejas is not late, its just 25 years of Refinement, Rafale better be aware
With some huge différences :
Developpment are not at an end. After a quarter of a century please !
Radar is not indigenous, nor classical or aesa.
Engine failed as a fighter one.
No integrated electronic counter mesures.

It's quite only a fighter airframe.
 

Sam Biswas

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It has brand new everything, which was brand new in American planes about a decade ago,
For example you said that F-16 is old tech etc etc, It has an AESA almost 10 years ago, and you have an AESA now ??? So, Rafale is not only yesterdays plane, but using yesterdays technology which even planes using now are apparently obsolete as said by you

India should forget Rafale because it is simply outdated. India should buy F-35 ASAP. If Hillary Clinton wins Pakistan will get F-35 directly or indirectly. Don't believe me? Research Huma Abedin. Huma Abedin is Hillary's right-hand person and Hillary calls her "second daughter". Huma Abedin is Pakistani and in Hillary's administration she will give Pakistan whatever they need and nothing to India. Rafale or Su30MKI are no match for F-35. If Pakistan gets hold of a few F-35, it will be deadly for India. India has a small window for getting F-35 from Obama administration.
 

airtel

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India should forget Rafale because it is simply outdated. India should buy F-35 ASAP. If Hillary Clinton wins Pakistan will get F-35 directly or indirectly. Don't believe me? Research Huma Abedin. Huma Abedin is Hillary's right-hand person and Hillary calls her "second daughter". Huma Abedin is Pakistani and in Hillary's administration she will give Pakistan whatever they need and nothing to India. Rafale or Su30MKI are no match for F-35. If Pakistan gets hold of a few F-35, it will be deadly for India. India has a small window for getting F-35 from Obama administration.
huma abedin is american , she was born in India & father is Indian (mother pakistaani) & she is married to an american christian .................yes may be she loyal to pakistaan but she alone can not decide the american foreign policy ................
there are many terms & conditions with american planes , you can not use them without american permissions ...................for example in kargil war .............pakistaan could not use F-16 against India because of America .
we can not use American fighter plane without their permission so we should never buy any american jet fighter .

yes Rafael is outdated & costly but if french are ready to provide technical knowledge of Jet engines & sensor fusion technology then it is a Good deal .

even barak hussain Obama's father is muslim , so what ??
they alone can not decide the American foreign policy .

Tribhuva55n Rathore Add FriendLike.jpg
 

Sam Biswas

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huma abedin is american , she was born in India & father is Indian (mother pakistaani) & she is married to an american christian .................yes may be she loyal to pakistaan but she alone can not decide the american foreign policy ................View attachment 9759
Bill Clinton gave or allowed Pakistan nuclear bomb, that no other US President would have allowed. Huma Abedin is far more influential with Hillary than anyone else. She is pro-Pakistani as well as Clintons and it will impact US-India and US-Pakistan relations significantly. Obama gave Pakistan F-16s; it is Republican Senate and Congress that stopped it. If US Congress goes to Democrat control with Hillary as President it will be a problem for India meaning Pakistan will get all the armaments they need including F-35s.

All I am saying is that India needs to prepare fast and Rafale is not going to do it. By acquiring F-35 India may be able to stop Pakistan from getting it. I am not sure about the US permission issue. Just having F-35 on Indian soil will be a great deterrent for both China and Pakistan. Having FGFA will be a second layer of security.
 
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Screambowl

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220 pages of waste bandwitdth lol
IAF still in their babugiri
 

BON PLAN

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Bill Clinton gave or allowed Pakistan nuclear bomb, that no other US President would have allowed. Huma Abedin is far more influential with Hillary than anyone else. She is pro-Pakistani as well as Clintons and it will impact US-India and US-Pakistan relations significantly. Obama gave Pakistan F-16s; it is Republican Senate and Congress that stopped it. If US Congress goes to Democrat control with Hillary as President it will be a problem for India meaning Pakistan will get all the armaments they need including F-35s.

All I am saying is that India needs to prepare fast and Rafale is not going to do it. By acquiring F-35 India may be able to stop Pakistan from getting it. I am not sure about the US permission issue. Just having F-35 on Indian soil will be a great deterrent for both China and Pakistan. Having FGFA will be a second layer of security.
bla bla bla.

The F35 can only work (when it will working) under a F22 umbrella.

The US vision is to put all the eggs in the stealth basket. It's a great risk ! I'm sure Stealth will vanished, because stealth on plane only work with high frequency radar (X band...), and now metric wave radars and multistatic radars are arriving, and there is nothing to do agains that.

At the end what will remain ?

- A nice fighter, but in small number and only in the US hands : F22

and

- A turkey, with poor handling capacity, poor carrying capacity (vs its size and weight), average in all aspect once stealth disappears, with small evolutivity because the frame is all developped aroud the stealth capacity.


It's not the first time US made a wrong analysis. See the F4 fighter without any canon because missile was THE definitive answer.

It's not the first time NATO country made a wrong choice : see Starfighter choice vs Mirage 3 : it was a shroud for pilots.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale deal: Negotiating team submits final report
NEW DELHI: The defence ministry's top acquisition council is likely to take up this month the final report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale fighter jet deal with France.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, is likely to meet on August 18.

The Council had last month reviewed the multi-billion Euro Rafale deal and directed the Indian negotiating team to submit its report "expeditiously".

"The negotiating team has submitted its report, which is under examination," the minister said in a written reply to the Lok Sabha on Friday.




During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.




Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.




The commercial negotiations on the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues began in mid-January this year.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...submits-final-report/articleshow/53671494.cms
 

airtel

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Bill Clinton gave or allowed Pakistan nuclear bomb, that no other US President would have allowed. Huma Abedin is far more influential with Hillary than anyone else. She is pro-Pakistani as well as Clintons and it will impact US-India and US-Pakistan relations significantly. Obama gave Pakistan F-16s; it is Republican Senate and Congress that stopped it. If US Congress goes to Democrat control with Hillary as President it will be a problem for India meaning Pakistan will get all the armaments they need including F-35s.

All I am saying is that India needs to prepare fast and Rafale is not going to do it. By acquiring F-35 India may be able to stop Pakistan from getting it. I am not sure about the US permission issue. Just having F-35 on Indian soil will be a great deterrent for both China and Pakistan. Having FGFA will be a second layer of security.
blah blah blah ................pakistaan have nuclear weapons since 1983 , yes USA helped pakistaan but Bill Clinton was not responsible ..............

one man can not decide the foreign policy of USA ...............

if we can not Use American planes without It's permission then how F-35 will be will be a great deterrent for both China and Pakistan ??

If USA again started supporting Pakistaan then what ?

pakistaan dont have money to buy just 8 F-16 , how the hell they will buy F-35 in large no. to even create any impact ??

they can just buy Junk fighter -17 "blunder" & junk -31 .............If Chinkies are ready to to give them military assistance .
 

harsh

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blah blah blah ................pakistaan have nuclear weapons since 1983 , yes USA helped pakistaan but Bill Clinton was not responsible ..............

one man can not decide the foreign policy of USA ...............

if we can not Use American planes without It's permission then how F-35 will be will be a great deterrent for both China and Pakistan ??

If USA again started supporting Pakistaan then what ?

pakistaan dont have money to buy just 8 F-16 , how the hell they will buy F-35 in large no. to even create any impact ??

they can just buy Junk fighter -17 "blunder" & junk -31 .............If Chinkies are ready to to give them military assistance .

Yes you are right that porkies had neuclear bomb technology since 1983 but they didn't have the courage to test them.
they test it under Clinton administration. Atal bihari Vajpayee knew this thats why he had given orders to test our bombs first......
so we did it 15 days before porkis.

We got sanctions and porkis got American help for their dying economy.

Clintons are anti india and also pro islam and pro pakistan.
 

Yumdoot

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:)
But Gen. Mike Hostage - a blind supporter of F-35 has expressly admitted that F-35 will require F-22 support. This has been posted earlier.

F-35 is just a Strike fighter and that's it. The Americans themselves keep flaunting the F-35 successes against aircrafts A-4 and A-10.

Rafale OTOH has nailed F-22, too. Ok given it was one off but it was during the time the stealth hunting was not in vogue. With time Stealth hunters will be joined by PAKFA, FGFA and J-20 and the stealth hunting would be exactly like fox hunting.

Americans already know this impact and that is why they designed the F-35 as a LO platform from the essentially earlier VLO characterstics of F-22. Nearly the whole world is compromising on RCS because people know that beyond a point the returns are simply not there in the huge investments made. In fact none of the european countries are either making or even collaborating on a stealth project. They too are rationalizing on single aspect stealth.

I think Bon Plan is right.
 

smestarz

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The plane is being developed and produced
The Tactics for it have not been developed yet,

If you compare F-22 and F-35, F-22 is more faster, more agile, designed more for A2A combat, somewhat like Eurofighter Typhoon.

F-35, was designed somewhat to be single stop solution for most, somehwat like French designed Rafale. Everyone thought that Rafale was only good for strike and would be humped in A2A, but its doing OK in A2A

Gve F-35 time to evolve and with new tactics its sure to make last gen planes like Rafale wish they were never born.

So, based on how F-35 is and the capability of F-22, F-22 has sole role to provide top cover umbrella, which is not the role for F-35, it is more or less going to be in area where most planes are going to be, and take them down one at a time


:)
But Gen. Mike Hostage - a blind supporter of F-35 has expressly admitted that F-35 will require F-22 support. This has been posted earlier.

F-35 is just a Strike fighter and that's it. The Americans themselves keep flaunting the F-35 successes against aircrafts A-4 and A-10.

Rafale OTOH has nailed F-22, too. Ok given it was one off but it was during the time the stealth hunting was not in vogue. With time Stealth hunters will be joined by PAKFA, FGFA and J-20 and the stealth hunting would be exactly like fox hunting.

Americans already know this impact and that is why they designed the F-35 as a LO platform from the essentially earlier VLO characterstics of F-22. Nearly the whole world is compromising on RCS because people know that beyond a point the returns are simply not there in the huge investments made. In fact none of the european countries are either making or even collaborating on a stealth project. They too are rationalizing on single aspect stealth.

I think Bon Plan is right.
 

Yumdoot

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So, based on how F-35 is and the capability of F-22, F-22 has sole role to provide top cover umbrella, which is not the role for F-35, it is more or less going to be in area where most planes are going to be, and take them down one at a time
That is if the opponents field A-4 and A-10 kind of planes. If they field anything like a loaded F-16D or higher, then what?

Say for example a Rafale.

If Rafale could hunt the F-22 on a good day, a feet only to be later repeated by Typhoon and Growler, how long do you think the F-35 will remain safe?
 

BON PLAN

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Stop with the bull shit, people like you are so quick to mention how stealthy the Rafale is, while when it comes to the F-35 all of a sudden stealth is overrated. You shouldn't be talking about US basket when Rafale replaces 9 types of aircraft. On any given day the F-35 will kill the Rafale in real combat. Go back to eating frog legs ass hole.
You haven't understand.
The rafale is a LO plane. It's main advantage is to be able to do all mission (from deterrence to air superiority), with a great advantage : Spectra.
F35 rely too much on Stealth. With huge compromission on the future. It is and will remain short legs and poor manoeuvrable.
 

BON PLAN

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The plane is being developed and produced
The Tactics for it have not been developed yet,

If you compare F-22 and F-35, F-22 is more faster, more agile, designed more for A2A combat, somewhat like Eurofighter Typhoon.

F-35, was designed somewhat to be single stop solution for most, somehwat like French designed Rafale. Everyone thought that Rafale was only good for strike and would be humped in A2A, but its doing OK in A2A

Gve F-35 time to evolve and with new tactics its sure to make last gen planes like Rafale wish they were never born.

So, based on how F-35 is and the capability of F-22, F-22 has sole role to provide top cover umbrella, which is not the role for F-35, it is more or less going to be in area where most planes are going to be, and take them down one at a time
Very interesting ;: you are developping a fighter and see AFTER what are the tactics for? I just expect they will find some....
 

Zebra

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....But Gen. Mike Hostage - a blind supporter of F-35 has expressly admitted that F-35 will require F-22 support. This has been posted earlier.
F-35 is just a Strike fighter and that's it. The Americans themselves keep flaunting the F-35 successes against aircrafts A-4 and A-10........
.......Americans already know this impact and that is why they designed the F-35 as a LO platform from the essentially earlier VLO characterstics of F-22. Nearly the whole world is compromising on RCS because people know that beyond a point the returns are simply not there in the huge investments made. In fact none of the european countries are either making or even collaborating on a stealth project. They too are rationalizing on single aspect stealth.
I think Bon Plan is right.....
My two cents............

There are few other aspects, when we talk about F-35 multirole aircraft.

Just to name one ---> its entire electronic package. One of the most latest package as of today.

The best part is, in its adoptive nature.

Its full of Artificial Intelligence (AI).

If I am not wrong.
 

smestarz

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Firstly why do you assume that F-35 once produce will not have any further development?

The particular "feat" you were describing, what were the limitations of the exercise? A2A missiles available? Was F-22 using AMRAAM ? Rafale does not have Meteor, So it would only have MICA thus range of 60 kms, It it was actual combat, you think Rafale would really get that close? The same goes for Eurofighter.. The main thing is who will detect the other first. detected does the attacker have missiles that can target the defender at that range.

Coming back to F-35 , it has AN/APG-81 which has 1,676 GaAs T/R modules and that it's most likely the most advanced fighter radar yet and thus the detection range is much better than that of Rafales smaller RBE-2AA which can boast about 1000 TRMs Thus F-35 approximately has at least about 50% more modules than Rafales RBE-2AA.. Thus detection first, ability to fire first.

About Rafale,, 90% of pro Rafales BS depends on SPECTRA, there are many questions being asked about the actual performance of SPECTRA. If you ask the French, they are going to say its classified,, maybe it is, but thats also the same statement used when you are not sure. Indian pilots evaluated the 6 planes in MRCA competition, they have not reported as SPECTRA being a game changer, they did however say that Rafale had the best sensor fusion suite.. which means that the information about the various sensors is available to pilot in much better way helping his efficiency.. This sort of Sensor fusion is very much possible and countries are doing it. But like I said before SPECTRA is sensor fusion suite of the various including Radar, Eurofighter has DASS which is system like SPECTRA and works in same way.

the company which manufactured F-16 is the one making F-35, and they themselves say that F-35 is way ahead of F-16.. let us regard this as marketing BS for time being and simply it. USA is one of the most aggressive nations and they see that in future, they can change the way combat is done. Surely air combat has evolved, Earlier British planes were just flying, and then Oswald Boelcke organised it into Jagdstaffeln (JASTA, fighter squadrons) where the aces were put in one combat unit so that they can be more effective. They also developed perhaps the first textbook of basic dog fighting.. Then the evolution about air fighting where some countries prefered flying V as basic unit (3 planes) and the other prefered Finger four (like four fingers on your hand and these are actually 2 pairs of lead and wingman) Air combat has evolved from "in your face" dog fighting now to almost being a sniper in the sky. The way American defence looks at F-35 is like group of snipers. They will be flying in lose group of 4 and hunting down planes in this group assisting each other. If you can shoot an enemy from distance, why to go face to face? Thats the concept behind F-35. F-35 will also do CAS but it will not be flying LOW. but it will simply carry bombs and A2G missiles that can hit the target with pinpoint accuracy. what else is CAS? It is to support your infantry at company level by putting ordnance right on the enemy thus destroying or disorienting the enemy thus helping your infantry units which have small arms to be able to take down the defensive position.

Few things are certain though
a) F-35 will not be the fastest plane, Thus if its out of missiles,, heaven help the pilot
b) It is not designed to fly 60,000 ft or so, its going to own the sky from 10K to 40K feet. at least
c) It is not designed to dog fight and hence dont come up with questions about Eurocanards being superior in Dog fight.. If you have an assault rifle and lots of spare mags, you do not run from 500 meters to use bayonet. Not if the enemy has an assault rifle and lot of reloads.
d) F-22 and F-35 will be complimentary. For some people who like dogfights, please refer to F-22 The designs and the roles for F-22 are different, F-22 is air dominance plane that can also strike (master of one), F-35 is MRCA (jack of all)

So, till the time, Eurocanards do not come up with powerful radar which can detect F-35 at much longer ranges, they are easy meat. The plane that detects and attacks first win.

And about SPECTRA... Seems the Libyan Radars were able to detect Rafales even when the Rafales were using SPECTRA.. thats SPECTRA in nutshell.. So when Libyan Radars can detect a plane which carries something that helps it be "invisible to radar" then there is something very much out of place.

Someone did talk about MACE etc .. The French are apparently happy using todays (or decade old tech) to outwit a Russain 2 decade old tech... priceless.






That is if the opponents field A-4 and A-10 kind of planes. If they field anything like a loaded F-16D or higher, then what?

Say for example a Rafale.

If Rafale could hunt the F-22 on a good day, a feet only to be later repeated by Typhoon and Growler, how long do you think the F-35 will remain safe?
 

smestarz

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Do you know how defence works??
I guess you might not.
First a fighter plane is developed looking at the roles..like say "What do we want to build this plane for"
Air dominance Fighter? MRCA? Deep Strike? Bomber etc, Once they defined the role, they design the plane.
For example plane which is air superiority, usually does not have high wings.. they have low wings (like Eurofighter) or max to max middle wings (Rafale F/A-18) Then once the design phase is complete they build prototypes and test it and once FOC is given. the plane is inducted and specialist are given the plane to fly, test and develop the combat tactics. Combat tactics are based on how the plane actually flies and performs. How the plane is designed theoratically and how it performs actual can vary a lot because from Design to production there are lot of changes for getting the optimum performance. Once the plane is in production, the tactics are developed for the plane and various "rules" are implemented. For example Su-30 MKI has TVC, and when use TVC in combat, the plane loses its Energy, so the tactics are developed as to when the pilot can use TVC so as to get the best results for the pilot.
Each air force develops or modifies the air tactics based on their flying style or peception. Thus the Tactics developed by IAF for Su-30 MKI may or may not be used by RuAF which uses Su-30 SM which are similar to Indian Su-30 MKI.

Let me further enlighten you, FGFA will be same design as PAKFA,, you think Indian pilots will develop tactics for FGFA even when they dont really know how PAKFA performs? How does it fly, how does it handle, how fast does it turn, when does it stall?

Tactics are only developed after HANDS ON EXPERIENCE on the plane, and not therotical or flight simulator. And if they really use same ideas as yours in France, then best France does not get war with Russia or other countries, it might be beaten very very badly.
.

Very interesting ;: you are developping a fighter and see AFTER what are the tactics for? I just expect they will find some....
 

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