Know Your 'Rafale'

[PaliwalWarrior]

Well ^^^ guys burnol moment for you

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you wish to continue this vs that, Please go to other thread for such debates ..

The warning served before for other members as well ..

The production rate will be upped to 16/year within the next 2 years which is pretty impressive considering it took the Pakis about 7 years to ramp up production to a similar rate despite having the Chinese holding their hand the entire time.

It really isn't but, yes, let's leave that to one side.

This is a fair enough analysis but it still negates the very basics of carrier warfare. The single engined NLCA will NEVER be the IN's primary carrier fighter or strike asset. Since the 1950s the carrier fighters that have been intended for such roles have been substantially larger and heavier than the LCA, the NLCA will at best be a air defence asset for the fleet whilst heavier IN carrier fighters take the fight to the enemy. With its limited range and payload capacity not to mention inherent restriction of operating on the high seas with zero redundancy (single engine) it is quite nonsensical to project the NLCA as a carrier strike platform.


It's really quite pointless to pretend the LCA is anything more than it is, onto bigger and better things now gentlemen....

There is no merit or logic to this analysis bro, it is very bizzare rhetoric that doesn't reflect common sense.

So how will the single engined Mk.2 with (at best) 50% of the payload capacity and maybe 60% of the range of the Rafale compete agaisnt the Rafale? There is no competition between the MMRCA and LCA at all. The LCA is not being devloped to compete with the Rafale and nor should it be, it is very good for what it is meant to be (an air defence fighter with CAS utility). Why conflate issues?

Who said it was? The TWR for the Mirage 2000s is adequate and it will be coming with some deadly weapons (MICA). The upgraded M2Ks will be quite a step ahead of the LCA, let's not delude ourselves.

 

[Gessler]

As expected none of the rafale lobby even so called Indians like

@Gessler @abingdonboy to name a few

Have spoken a single good word about tejas &this moment of its maiden sqdn formation

Mind you @Gessler is a person who who goes all gaga &oh &ah even if eric happier so as farts

Well ^^^ guys burnol moment for you

Kindly, shut your trap sir ji.

I decide what I chose to vocally support or not. Rafale was a decision that could go either way, so I felt the need to support it. Tejas induction is not a decision to be taken by anyone now, it is (and was since before I was born) an eventuality. So no need to argue in favor of it - we all knew it was gonna happen sooner or later.

The bigger problem that I was gonna face was the requirement - I saw the separate procurement lines (light, medium, heavy) that were being brought up by IAF and I clearly knew that one category cannot & will not replace the other (that goes both ways). However, some people (much like yourself) fail to see this and are led to believe that by arguing in favor of Rafale, I am automatically a Tejas-hater (which is obviously not the case if you go and see my arguments in Tejas v/s JF-17 threads in the "other" forum). Without any further explanation, I can say for sure you still do not see the separate requirements here and still believe I am a foreign agent.

As a final challenge, I urge you to find one instance where I said we should dump LCA and replace it with Rafale (on this forum or anywhere else). Oh what's that? That's right, you can't. Because it's time for you to come out of your delusions, Mr. Misinformed Patriot.

 

[smestarz]

So how will the single engined Mk.2 with (at best) 50% of the payload capacity and maybe 60% of the range of the Rafale compete agaisnt the Rafale? There is no competition between the MMRCA and LCA at all. The LCA is not being devloped to compete with the Rafale and nor should it be, it is very good for what it is meant to be (an air defence fighter with CAS utility). Why conflate issues?/QUOTE]
Why should LCA Mk2 compete against Rafale? Logic would suggest we send Su-30 MKI to compete against Rafale. And like you said in a way, Rafale is no match for Su-30 MKI,

IAF top brass are money driven these days, Most countries categories the planes as per roles and capabilities except for Transport and carrier planes which come in Light medium and heavy category. Americans have many planes like F-16, F/A-18 and F-15, do you see them talking about Light = F-16, Medium = F/A-18 and heavy as F-15 ? They just simply talk of roles. F-16 Single engine MRCA. F/A-18, Twin engine MRCA., F-15 Air dominance and now also deep strike plane. What actually is F-22 categorized as ? Medium 5th Gen plane? Have you read any American use this term? These terms came from IAF who wanted to make sure that they can buy Rafale at any cost, and hence got that "medium" term coined. IF IAF is so eager for Medium plane, it makes better sense to buy Mig-35, Twin engined, Top of the line MiG-35 model, good avionics and weapons, Very much cheaper than rafale to buy use and maintain over its Life cycle, Further it has commonality with MiG-29 that we have so automatically the supply chain is a non-issue. Or is IAF going to be very particular that they want 13-14 pylons only and the empty and loaded weight should be same as Rafale only and having SAFRAN M-88 only? If they come with these specs, then I guess Rafale is only plane left.
The point is that, India based on all the planes it has, covers the entire spectrum of roles, Air dominance, deep strike, Air superiority, interception, CAS etc, And adding another plane just because it has "medium" weight is stupidity. Already much of IAF top brass has proven their incompetence many times. When some top brass told DM that Rafale has higher range than Su-30 MKI to try and push for Rafale purchase, parrikar was amused and he started asking the questions about fuel capcity and other details, and then these experts were running for cover. I guess they had read Wiki and answered the DM based on wiku.


Who said it was? The TWR for the Mirage 2000s is adequate and it will be coming with some deadly weapons (MICA). The upgraded M2Ks will be quite a step ahead of the LCA, let's not delude ourselves.

Mirage 2000 that India has only has MICA and even after an upgrade its basically an outdated plane.
Few simple things, like Tejas has better A2A missiles available for itself and not limited to MICA. Do tell me which other Modern A2A missile is there for Mirage 2000 ?
Where as Tejas Mk1 will be with an AESA.. compare that with Mirage mechanical radar. Longer range missiles like R-77 vs Shorter range MICA.. Thus Tejas will be able to see Mirage 2000 from longer distance and be able to attack from longer range, well before Mirage 2000 can see Tejas and fire on Tejas

Further, it is many of the serving pilots of IAF who have flown both Tejas and Mirage 2000 who have been on record saying that Tejas is many times more capable than the last generation Mirage 2000.
So, your quote is directly against the people who have flown and flying Mirage 2000 and Tejas., now would you be saying that the pilot who flies those planes know less about those planes than you?

 

[BON PLAN]

However bearing in mind F-16C-50 radar capabilities (detect a fighter from 75km max and track it from 50km) pakis cannot use their AIM-120 on ranges they've paid for

OK.
And if the target is a tanker ? (or maybe a heavy signatured Su30...) Paki can fired AMRAAM at full range.

 

[BON PLAN]

There is no competition between the MMRCA and LCA at all.

ABSOLUTELY.

 

[BON PLAN]

like Tejas has better A2A missiles available for itself and not limited to MICA. Do tell me which other Modern A2A missile is there for Mirage 2000 ?

like Tejas MAYBE WILL HAVE better A2A missiles available for itself and not limited to MICA. Are DERBY and ASTRA fully integrated on Tejas? I'm not sure. Tomorrow maybe.

Do tell me which other Modern A2A missile is there for Mirage 2000 ?
No need another missile. MICA is very effective and is used by 6 air forces in the world.

 

[gadeshi]

OK.
And if the target is a tanker ? (or maybe a heavy signatured Su30...) Paki can fired AMRAAM at full range.

Tankers - Maybe, Su-30 - no, it has Khibiny-U ESM/ECM suite which energetics is twice higher than F-16 radar
And of course if Su-30 has triple more powerful radar, F-16 (as any other light/medium fighter) will have no chance against it until F-16 will triple outnumber Su-30s which is very unlikely.
So F-16 must come very close (some 25-30km) to Su-30 to make even 50% successful launch (some about 25% IRL) which is a 100% death note for a Viper.
And this was many times proven by Turkish F-16 which preferred to withdraw deeply from their border when VKS strike forces were escorted by Su-30SM.

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[PaliwalWarrior]

OK.
And if the target is a tanker ? (or maybe a heavy signatured Su30...) Paki can fired AMRAAM at full range.

Ni if a radar can't track then how can it lock on if it can't lock on then how can it fire at full range of aamram ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Ni if a radar can't track then how can it lock on if it can't lock on then how can it fire at full range of aamram ?

Don't underestimate US radar company.
A F16 can track and lock a tanker at a higher range than AMRAAM one.
For Su30 .... it's a big fighter. Without great effort made on stealth. Probably Su can see F16 first, but I think F16 can see it also at a greater range than AMRAAM one. Maybe it depend of the radar. What a block 50 can do, a block 15 without MLU can't.

and another time, it's difficult to compare such different fighters than F16 and Su27/30.

 

[Yumdoot]

Sukhois don't fight like Tankers.

 

[gadeshi]

Sukhois don't fight like Tankers.

Wrong.
Wiping out force multipliers is the most effective way to counter stealth aircrafts that rely on them heavily.

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[gadeshi]

Don't underestimate US radar company.
A F16 can track and lock a tanker at a higher range than AMRAAM one.
For Su30 .... it's a big fighter. Without great effort made on stealth. Probably Su can see F16 first, but I think F16 can see it also at a greater range than AMRAAM one. Maybe it depend of the radar. What a block 50 can do, a block 15 without MLU can't.

and another time, it's difficult to compare such different fighters than F16 and Su27/30.

Radar efficiency consists of 3 main parts:
1 - Aperture (antenna) size - the bigger antenna is the more energy it can convert to radiation, the bigger range can it provide. F-16 can afford very small antenna.
2 - Carrier energetic capacity - it is obvious, defined by engine(s) gearboxes power production capacity - F-16 has only 1 13 tons class engine which must support not only a radar...
3 - Target detection and signal processing algorythms sophistication. This is OK (apparently) but can be simplified for export customers...

So you can make a conclusions yourself

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[BON PLAN]

Radar efficiency consists of 3 main parts:
1 - Aperture (antenna) size - the bigger antenna is the more energy it can convert to radiation, the bigger range can it provide. F-16 can afford very small antenna.
2 - Carrier energetic capacity - it is obvious, defined by engine(s) gearboxes power production capacity - F-16 has only 1 13 tons class engine which must support not only a radar...
3 - Target detection and signal processing algorythms sophistication. This is OK (apparently) but can be simplified for export customers...

So you can make a conclusions yourself

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Of course. You're right. But you don't need a Tomcat nose cone radar and twin 10 or 12 tons engins so a s to produce a lot of electricity to detect and engage a SU30 at 80km.

 

[AnantS]

Wrong.
Wiping out force multipliers is the most effective way to counter stealth aircrafts that rely on them heavily.

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In Indo Pak scenario, involving Sukhois, tankers have limited role, and mostly they will be loitering well inside Indian airspace. Sukhois great legs, and Pakistan's proximity make this possible.

in case of China, depending upon how deep objectives are, the tankers may or may not be in enemy's radar range

 

[gadeshi]

Of course. You're right. But you don't need a Tomcat nose cone radar and twin 10 or 12 tons engins so a s to produce a lot of electricity to detect and engage a SU30 at 80km.

Wrong.
80km will be detection range, tracking will be 25-30% lower.
And don't forget about ECM, which can kill any light fighter radar in range due to twice or even triple suppremacy in energetic capacity.

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[smestarz]

No longer "maybe" Already many A2A missiles tested, Dont you read the thread?
Astra is pending. Derby already test fired.and it will have Derby ER which by the way would have higher range than MICA. Thus longer range radar and longer ranged missile are advantage of Tejas.

To tell you the point, at least Tejas has more missiles in future what future missiles for Mirage 2000? Stuck with MCA as its best bet.

MICA is used by 6 air forces. Russian missiles more than that, AMRAAM almost half the worlds powerful air forces.
BTW as I said MICA maybe used by 6 air forces, how many A2A missiles options does Mirage 2000 have?

like Tejas MAYBE WILL HAVE better A2A missiles available for itself and not limited to MICA. Are DERBY and ASTRA fully integrated on Tejas? I'm not sure. Tomorrow maybe.

Do tell me which other Modern A2A missile is there for Mirage 2000 ?
No need another missile. MICA is very effective and is used by 6 air forces in the world.

 

[BON PLAN]

BTW as I said MICA maybe used by 6 air forces, how many A2A missiles options does Mirage 2000 have?

if you pay for, we can integrate AMRAAM, DERBY... on Mirage 2000.
But it seems indian, Taiwan, Qatar, EAU, Greece, Morocco and france of course (7 air force) are happy with MICA. Last customer is... is... India !
A good choice indeed.

 

[gadeshi]

if you pay for, we can integrate AMRAAM, DERBY... on Mirage 2000.
But it seems indian, Taiwan, Qatar, EAU, Greece, Morocco and france of course (7 air force) are happy with MICA. Last customer is... is... India !
A good choice indeed.

There is no need for something more capable than MICA for Mirage-2000. It's radar limits fire range just to MICA default

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[smestarz]

Every kid in india, no matter how stupid knows few things
a) Terrorist are coming from Pakistan (supported by Pakistan)
b) In most arms deals that India did in past there are kickbacks
So that should answer why India purchased MICA along with the expensive Mirage 2000 upgrade.

Now, if you want to compare Rafales / Mirage 2000 position vis a vis others here are some points for you.
Taiwan, Qatar, Greece etc etc, did not want to pay extra for putting other missiles as then the cost of buying those missiles and integrating them with Mirage 2000 would be more expensive than Mirage 2000.
Taiwan was not getting any new F-16 and so they purchased some Mirage 2000 just in case. Even now the Americans are refusing to give them F-16 but you dont see Taiwanese lining up for Rafale do they? should tell you about how "happy" they are.

I really wonder what "happy" her means when these countries have not had a conflict where MICA was used. French are desperately trying to get into one to prove. You still want to add the example of how Greek Mirage 2000 shot down a turkish F-16 on training mission by mistake?
So just putting the missile on the plane and flying 250 hrs a year without actually using the missile, would be a very sorry excuse for "happy" BTW I did not hear the IAF complaining about the Russian A2A missiles and which are as you know excellent and cheap to buy and use.

Now for Rafale only French weapons are integrated for pure reasoin of pushing french weapons sales, F/A-18 comes integrated with other missiles already, so no extra costs there,

Further about missiles, you can compare the 7 countries that use MICA vs the nos of countries that use AMRAAM you will know why its widely used.

if you pay for, we can integrate AMRAAM, DERBY... on Mirage 2000.
But it seems indian, Taiwan, Qatar, EAU, Greece, Morocco and france of course (7 air force) are happy with MICA. Last customer is... is... India !
A good choice indeed.