Know Your 'Rafale'

Lions Of Punjab

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Smart work by DM . All the time he was giving hint for a new twin engine plane probably to lower the Rafale prices . Feeling competition from US (F-18) and Seden (Gripen-E) , Dassault might rethink .
 

WolfPack86

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Other than negotiating 36 Rafale , French company Dassault is also preparing to sell 90 more Rafales to IAF in the long term
 

curryman

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Other than negotiating 36 Rafale , French company Dassault is also preparing to sell 90 more Rafales to IAF in the long term
I presume these follow up orders will include the Rafale being built in India with ToT?
 

BON PLAN

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Well he is a "pro Rafale, anti rest of the planes" Troll. The French believe that they produce everything best, but given their closed mindedness, they do not see the others are excelling far better than they are.
And come to think of it, I find the French are one of the biggest hippocrites. Gripen and Eufofighter users have always maintained that METEOR will imrprove the BVR ability of their planes and the countries like UK, sweden are putting their weight behind METEOR and going to induct these, But apparently (and based on what BP said) The French will be ordering about 100 rounds of Meteor (far below the nos of planes that they have) The French will be pushing more for their MICA missiles as they have invested a lot in purchasing them. Thus French are apparently also marketing METEOR to try and sell their Rafales as having capable BVR missiles which they apparently do not really want to induct in quantity.
For french air force, Meteor will be usefull only against Tanker, Awacs, C17... because in case of a real conflict, it will be too difficult for evey one to shoot a hard moving target among plenty others (friend or foe) at such a range.
That is why we were and are developping MICA missile (and MICA NG) with +/-60km range. But for these famous Tanker and Awacs, and for marketing reason, we need also Meteor but in short quantity.
 

gadeshi

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main word is "planned"..... .
Russians have always do according to plans within 5-15% delays or overprogress comparable to initial plan.
T-50 program has started in 2004 and the first prototype has flown in 2010 which is really fast comparable to F-22 and F-35 programs.
So don't worry for T-50, if Sliusar said that LRIP will start in the next year, then it will be so. :)

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gadeshi

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For french air force, Meteor will be usefull only against Tanker, Awacs, C17... because in case of a real conflict, it will be too difficult for evey one to shoot a hard moving target among plenty others (friend or foe) at such a range.
That is why we were and are developping MICA missile (and MICA NG) with +/-60km range. But for these famous Tanker and Awacs, and for marketing reason, we need also Meteor but in short quantity.
Ah! Now you repeat my words about Why LRAAMs are for :)
But according to your previous words your own MOD thinks different (and doesn't know why to buy them at all, cause they tell complete BS).

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WolfPack86

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Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening
 

WolfPack86

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Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

gadeshi

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Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
And now we all want sources of this, especially numbers :)
Especially 97% avaliability for FAF Rafales :)

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BON PLAN

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Ah! Now you repeat my words about Why LRAAMs are for :)
But according to your previous words your own MOD thinks different (and doesn't know why to buy them at all, cause they tell complete BS).

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Absolutely not.
Meteor will be usefull only against high valueslow moving targets, And maybe against fighter over the ocean, where there are less planes in the air so deconfliction more easy. and basta.
It's what french air force think. And when you look at recent conflicts, how many AtoA missile were fired? (last one shoot a SU ...) and how many at more than 60km ?
But in case of, and for maketing reason, Meteor is induce on Rafale and french air force buy a small number. (in case of, just as F22 carry AIM9X when it is made to shoot from long range...)
 

BON PLAN

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Russians have always do according to plans within 5-15% delays or overprogress comparable to initial plan.
T-50 program has started in 2004 and the first prototype has flown in 2010 which is really fast comparable to F-22 and F-35 programs.
So don't worry for T-50, if Sliusar said that LRIP will start in the next year, then it will be so. :)

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All russian planes are perfectly sheduled. It is well known.
 

kstriya

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Then
Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
why are the French backing out of sovereign guarantee? If its so sure of the performance and lifecycle costs, they should back it with a guarantee. The cost still does not justify we can still use and operate 2 SU30 MKI at the cost of one Rafale.
 

smestarz

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Pardon me if I do not get excited about the article you posted, Nice article but with lot of HOLES, but as Gadeshi asked, we shall be interested about the links
It is known fact that Rafale is EASIER TO MAINTAIN, not cheap to use and maintain, The reason is that due to it being modular all you need to do is change the defective module and the plane is operational. But the air crew have to still fix the module later.

Now few more queries.from my side

You said the price per plane is US$ 61 million, at what exchange rate?
In parliament, DM has informed that each Su-30 MKI is at the price of rs 358 crore, the present exchange rate being Rs 67 to dollar roughly (and even then) it comes to US$ 55 million max,

The cost of operating Rafale as you said is almost US$ 9500

There are various articles and I would like to point them out
http://www.aviatia.net/rafale-vs-su-30mki/
Flight cost per hour Rafale 28000$ per hour, Su-30 MKI 23000 per hour

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...142416/mali-shows-need-for-coin-aircraft.html
the Rafale costs roughly $17,000 per flight hour; and the Mirage 2000 5MK2 about $5,000.

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/fighter-aircraft-costs/
This is blog of one of the members of a forum, known Rafale fanboy but let us also consider his figures
10 000 Euros for Rafale C and B, 7 000 Euros for Rafale M per hour of flight in 2012; 19 000 USD per hour of flight in combat operations in Mali

Shall try to find more holes

Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

BON PLAN

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10 000 Euros for Rafale C and B, 7 000 Euros for Rafale M per hour of flight in 2012; 19 000 USD per hour of flight in combat operations in Mali
It would be strange Rafale M cost less than Rafale C to operate. Naval environment is more demanding.
19000 USD seems very very high. Maybe it is with weaponery? ....
 

Bahamut

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Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
Sir the 97% is for shirt term
Whoever thinks that the Su-30MKIs are going to be less expensive for IAF than the Rafales over their entire lifetime is in for a rude awakening.

~ Let’s start with the basics.
The fly-away cost for an HAL assembled MKI is $61 Million (Parliament figures) while that of the Rafale is $85 Million (extrapolated from French SENAT figures). So the argument that the Flankers are 2-3 times cheaper than the Rafales is no more valid.

~ Now let’s compare the operations cost per hour for each aircraft.
The MKI will cost the exchequer close to $18,000 per hour of flight. This is in consistence with the figures from Russian Flankers and other twin engine heavy fighters like the F-15.
Now the surprise is that the Rafales will cost only $9,484 per hour of flight. This is because the Rafale barely needs any maintenance after its flights. So we see that the Rafales cost only half that of the MKIs to fly per hour, which results in massive savings per year. Also, according to unconfirmed sources, the Mirage-2000s that cost $8,000/hr to fly with the French Airforce costs only $4,000/hr with the Indian Airforce. So we may see further savings for Rafales.
Another important factor is the airframe life and overhaul.
MKIs have an airframe life of 6000 hours while the Rafales have an 8000 hours rated airframe (can go upto 9000 hours). Se we can definitely see the Rafales out living the MKI by a huge margin.
Also the MKIs need airframe overhaul every 1500 hours of flight while the Rafales need one every 2500+ hours (theoretically, but the Rafales doesn’t need overhauls in the normal sense as it will be explained in the later part). We all know the availability rate of Su-30MKIs is close to 65% now (planned to be increased to 75%) by 2019. Meanwhile the Rafale has an availability rate of 97% with the French Airforce. Less downtime means more savings.

~ Let’s consider the engines now
The AL-31FP engine (87% indigenization) costs almost half that of the M-88-3 (version yet to be confirmed). But the engine life is what matters here. The AL-31FP has a measly 2500 hours of life (2000 according to some sources in IAF) that also needs periodic overhaul every 1000 hours and the nozzle every 500 hours of flying. This wastes considerable amount of resources, also the airframe requires upto 3 sets of engines over its entire lifetime.
In contrast the M-88-3 (with the recent TCO upgrade) has a total life of 8000hours! Which means that the airframes don’t need a change of engines over its entire lifetime. As for the overhaul time, it is said to require an overhaul every 2000 hours of use (the entire life of the AL-31FP engine) But this is just a theoretical necessity as in real life the engine does not undergo overhauls in the strict sense. (will be explained in the later part)
Also the M-88 requires a drop-out time of only 2 hours compared to 8-12 hours for the AL-31FP.
All these points prove that the Su-30MKI may be cheaper for acquisition. But comparing the costs over its entire life time, the Rafale cost less by a huge margin. Another example is that the Rafale needs 8 hours of maintenance per flying hour compare to 32 hours of maintenance per flying hour for a Su-30MKI. That’s a factor of 4!
I’m not even going to consider the cost of the upcoming upgrades for our Flankers. The Su-30MKI will need a huge amount of upgrades to bring in towards 4++ gen level while the Rafale doesn’t need any.

~ Now coming to the point about overhauls for Rafales (which I said I’ll explain later)
One of the biggest advantages of Rafale is that it has a fully automatic monitoring system that reduces turnaround time and minimizes the use of ground equipment. Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced. Which means that instead of an overhaul, the LRUs can be tested on the system without taking them out of the aircraft. If a problem is found, the LRUs can be replaced very easily without much time loss.

Even for the Engines which is modular, the monitoring system indicates the module that has a problem and is easily swapped for another replacement module without much downtime and the hassle, hence overhauls over a fixed period of time is unnecessary.

Rafale is also expected to be self-supporting, requiring no external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance. That is why it has a very low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements. Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason why the IAF loved the Rafale.

~ Conclusion
So next time someone brings up the argument that buying more Su-30MKIs were better than going for Rafales, be sure to make him/her read this article. Also share this as much as you can so the people can really understand what the truth is rather than listening to what the paid media is propagating.

Whole Analysis Credit - Tejas India's MRCA Page.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
Sir the 97 % for Rafale is for short term and similar no have been achieved by Su 30 mki for short-term.
 

gadeshi

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Sir the 97% is for shirt term

Sir the 97 % for Rafale is for short term and similar no have been achieved by Su 30 mki for short-term.
And for few Navy Rafales only.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

smestarz

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I posted the links, and certainly you can question and debate for the forum to reach the correct and actual figures
US$ 19000 should be with weaponry (Mali operations) but then the cost of operation will not include the cost of weapons fired would they? Those should be seperate.

It would be strange Rafale M cost less than Rafale C to operate. Naval environment is more demanding.
19000 USD seems very very high. Maybe it is with weaponery? ....
 

smestarz

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So if Rafale and Su-30 MKI both achieve 97%+ operational availability, this does not really become the point to select one over other? We already have one (Su-30 MKI) so why go for other? (Rafale)

Sir the 97% is for shirt term

Sir the 97 % for Rafale is for short term and similar no have been achieved by Su 30 mki for short-term.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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For french air force, Meteor will be usefull only against Tanker, Awacs, C17... because in case of a real conflict, it will be too difficult for evey one to shoot a hard moving target among plenty others (friend or foe) at such a range.
That is why we were and are developping MICA missile (and MICA NG) with +/-60km range. But for these famous Tanker and Awacs, and for marketing reason, we need also Meteor but in short quantity.

The key word here is developing mica with 60 km range

So now yourself have admitted that current mica don't have 60 km range

And the mica with 60 km range is being developed
 

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