Know Your 'Rafale'

[Agnostic_Indian]

Talks are going on to revise CISMOA so it doesn't infringe, the previous version did. LSA won't benefit India much since our Navy doesn't operate that far out, LSA whould help IN in and around IOR wherever there are Allied bases. CISMOA will only be signed when it suits us.

As for our spying abilities, quite an understatement, we knew more about 9/11 way before it happening, OBL and many other things way before the US did. Sure, they have more budgets and kit etc. but RAW on any given day is one of the best intel agencies in the world take it or leave it.

What ever little concessions on CISMOA would not do any good to india. If we share our communication frequency and we use American equipments to communicate then nothing can stop America from spying. If you think raw is better than CIA and other American agencies then you are in delusion.

 

[Immanuel]

See? now that is what one considers a logical debating point. But simply plugging F35, LSA, CISMOA as if someone has a gun pointed to your head is not helpful to anyone at all. Also note that I am not ecstatic about Rafale either so don't confuse me with a Rafale fanboy.

Also, stealth is not a binary thing. Stealth is a relative thing. There are multiple ways to achieve stealth. Having a small RCS, having radars that are specially designed to facilitate a terrain hugging mode, having passive tracking sensors, encryption of communication, are all stealth features as well. Depending on how you use each one of them, or a combination of them, you can be stealthy. Of course, it makes no sense to you because you are obsessed with the proprietary American version of stealth, which makes you think that American planes have some magic button upon pressing which, the plane disappears. If you get all your information from 'documentaries' sponsored by the US defense lobby, you will come out believing that only the US can make weapons, every other country makes junk. That's just propaganda.

There's more to buying weapons than just technical specifications. There's global political considerations as well. At a time when American financial support for Pakistan is at its highest, we can't be subsidizing their bad behavior by giving them billions of dollars and buying their equipment. This serves as a diplomatic bargaining chip. If the US expects India to even start considering buying American equipment, the least they can do is take our strategic sensitivities into consideration, otherwise they can take a hike.

Funny thing is any body who seems to counter the Rafale & say anything about the F-35 has to be recieving commision, same argument doesn't apply for soo many 'Rafale peddlers'.

You bring up Pak, but Pak isn't the main threat here. Sure, they get alms from unkil but have you forgotten the measly export controls the soviets had for the chinese, this allowed the chinese to basically have pretty much every weapon in the Russia/soviet era to be copied and directed towards India. Nations do what's in their best interest, grow-up will you. The fact that India is more and more bying US equipment only puts your old ass argument to rest. C-130Js, C-17s, P-8Is, S-70Bs, Apaches, Chinooks on order and more on the way. You also forget US will be helping in INS Vishal's design, perhaps nukle propulsion, the relationship is growing slowly and US companies have been invited to help on the next gen Nuke subs.

No one here is rushing into a relationship with the US but this will only improve, there is no other way, its in India's best interest. My point here is why would IN need to look at Rafale when there would be 5th gen options available in the timelines when it really needs aircraft. All that yada yada is not needed, I know well enough what stealth is, don't go lecturing us about it. The same things you mention are already pretty advanced in the F-35, heck even in the PAKFA. The terrain hugging mode is the only thing Rafale is better at but people here clearly underestimate the kind of defenses our enemies on both borders deploy including scores of manportable SAMS.

 

[Immanuel]

What ever little concessions on CISMOA would not do any good to india. If we share our communication frequency and we use American equipments to communicate then nothing can stop America from spying. If you think raw is better than CIA and other American agencies then you are in delusion.

CIA is more widespread, they have more budgets, satellites and technologies guding them, this makes them pretty good but when it comes to methods & results RAW is superior. As for concessions on CISMOA, well nothing is done yet, the revised version is not ready so, let's not jump into conclusions that don't exist. Again, if it doesn't meet our needs, we won't sign it.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Funny thing is any body who seems to counter the Rafale & say anything about the F-35 has to be recieving commision, same argument doesn't apply for soo many 'Rafale peddlers'.

You bring up Pak, but Pak isn't the main threat here. Sure, they get alms from unkil but have you forgotten the measly export controls the soviets had for the chinese, this allowed the chinese to basically have pretty much every weapon in the Russia/soviet era to be copied and directed towards India. Nations do what's in their best interest, grow-up will you. The fact that India is more and more bying US equipment only puts your old ass argument to rest. C-130Js, C-17s, P-8Is, S-70Bs, Apaches, Chinooks on order and more on the way. You also forget US will be helping in INS Vishal's design, perhaps nukle propulsion, the relationship is growing slowly and US companies have been invited to help on the next gen Nuke subs.

No one here is rushing into a relationship with the US but this will only improve, there is no other way, its in India's best interest. My point here is why would IN need to look at Rafale when there would be 5th gen options available in the timelines when it really needs aircraft. All that yada yada is not needed, I know well enough what stealth is, don't go lecturing us about it. The same things you mention are already pretty advanced in the F-35, heck even in the PAKFA. The terrain hugging mode is the only thing Rafale is better at but people here clearly underestimate the kind of defenses our enemies on both borders deploy including scores of manportable SAMS.

I already said that I am not happy with the Rafale deal either, so I don't know why you had to counter that strawman.

As for Pakistan, it might not be the greatest threat, but it is a threat, and the very reason it possesses the capability to be a threat to India is exclusively because of the external funding that it gets. It wouldn't do as well had it been left on its own. The US literally pays for all the weapons that Pakistan buys from all over the world, including China.

China getting Russian weapons is different. They pay for it, plus Russia is not begging us to sign any LSA, CISMOA. They sell to us, they sell to China, they sell to a lot of people, including Pakistan, no strings attached. It is the US who is asking us to make all these strategic concessions in exchange for weapon sales. Hence the case of US is a unique one. It is in our interest to resist or at least delink any weapons purchase from any other legal commitment like LSA and CISMOA as a pre-condition to buying anything from them. It is a buyer's market, we will get them to sell on our terms if we negotiate properly and use all leverages. If we act like fanboys and desperadoes however, then the US will force all sorts of legal obligations on us.

If we go to the negotiating table like retards saying "OMG! your weapons are so shiny! give us your weapons, we are willing to sign on any blank paper in exchange" we will definitely get fucked.

 

[Gessler]

agreed stealth is defensive and the lack of stealth makes raflale vulnerable and at the same time makes it dependent on the enemy to emit in order to detect the enemy.

Unfortunately it's also impossible for enemy to see Rafale at long ranges without emitting. And some sources (like IR) cannot be masked anyway.

my whole argument is based on stealth, lack of stealth shaping works against older gen A2A Fighers.

Yes, that works as a disadvantage. But still it does not make them useless, nor does it make 5th gen strike planes able to replace 4.5 gen fighters with greater emphasis on A2A than F35, as these planes can still have equal/superior offensive capabilities thanks to modern technology combined with their inherent aerodynamic performance.

For example a BVRAAM launched by Su-35 can be fired from a much higher altitude, while flying at much higher speeds than F35 - that gives the said missile a lot farther range.

These two types can at best compliment each other. For example RAF will use Typhoons for air cover while F35 attacks ground targets.

Rafael radar can't detect a stelth platform on any useful distance, spectra depend on enemies radar signals, IRST doesn't have enough coverage and is suspectable to whether conditions.

Rafale radar+SPECTRA sensors would detect J-20 at the same or even longer ranges than F35's radar+sensors. Rafale has placed a much greater emphasis on passive detection techniques than F35 or any other fighter, save for except PAK-FA.

Specta use jamming to degrade the performance of the enemies radar, but sooner or later enemy radar will burn through the jamming. Besides modern aesa radars can do so many things to prevent jammming, spectra might work well againt non Aesa radarss but i don't think it can do anything against modern aesa radars.

That is extremely relative. Even the most basic RF transmitters on Rafale are based on AESA architecture and are set to receive a GaN upgrade.

Most ew suits of modern figher jets has rwr and jammming techniques, spectra also is just another spj.

That's just one job of Spectra. Plus a system that can mimic & re-transmit your signals with enough accuracy to make it seem as if the target you're looking at has a much smaller RCS than what it really has - means this system has placed a great emphasis on signal-processing power beyond that of most EW suites.

Can the same Active Cancellation techniques be put on, say Tejas EW suite, without changing up the whole architecture, adding new sensor arrays? I don't think so.

Irst doesn't have the coverage of a radar so it will be difficult to pick up anything with irst. It's also suspectable to whether conditions, Irst works best mostly on tale chase, head on range is very poor.

I don't think 80km is a poor range. Atleast for a target with little to no IR-suppression methods like flat nozzles. J-20 doesn't have any. In tail-chase that range is 130km. Future upgrades will enhance the range further.

As I said, when Rafale wants to see a target that does not want to be seen, no one sensor will work alone - the IRST will be in conjunction with the radar, EW sensors and even the TV sensor (to ID the target if it's actually that close). IRST only needs to notice spikes in IR signature at those ranges (~80km) and then the radar is told to pick up scan rates in that sector while interferometry sensors also listen to waves from there.

Same is true for other sensors. If EW picks up suspicions transmissions from a sector, radar+IRST can focus there with enhanced range capability. SPECTRA does everything possible to provide best chances of tracking the enemy actively+passively.

Every modern ew suit works that way, not just spectra.spectra could be slightly better but nothing extra ordinary in it except for the marketing campaigns.

That's right the techniques are the same. But it's the emphasis placed on these techniques in the Rafale that makes it better/unique. For example F35 would never give such importance to active cancellation because it has a stealthy airframe to begin with. But Rafale does, because it wants to obtain the advantages of electronically-reducing RCS without sacrificing aerodynamics by going for a stealthy airframe.

Besides, even the Spectra transmitters are going to get GaN at the same time as the radar does.

Air combat doesn't happen like one vs one scenarois, there will be wing men or multiple jets. Out of many j 20's ( or any other stealth jet) only one need to emit and reveal the position, other j 20 can approach the rafale with in a range of the NEZ of its bvr missile, then the emitting j20 can provide target info, midcourse update.

Sir, working in a datalinked group only increases your chances of detection. That's why aircraft with a full-on emphasis on stealth like F-117/F-22 were originally designed to work without data-link.

Besides Rafales too will be operating in groups.

sure but PAKFA is still a stealth platform, it has done meaningful reduction of rcs and it will be carrying it's weapons internationally, PAKFA and other stealth platforms will be detecting each other at more or less similar ranges and time, where as rafale can be picked up so early and fired at the ranges of NEZ of bvr missiles.

But still it's likely that PAK-FA's RCS will be bigger than F35's on a clean load. By the equation you have given, F35 will be better than PAK-FA at air combat because it has lesser RCS. It doesn't work like that unfortunately. PAK-FA will still dominate any F35, F22, J20 at air combat, at any ranges.

The point is typhoon can pick up any radar technology but raflale won't be getting a bigger radar. I think typhoons air frame also is tuned for high altitude, high speed flights, it's not just the engine advantage.
I am not sure about spectra being superior to typhoon's suit, it's hard to say yes or No.

Please refer to the Swiss evaluation reports. I suppose they were discussed on this forum also?

 

[Immanuel]

I already said that I am not happy with the Rafale deal either, so I don't know why you had to counter that strawman.

As for Pakistan, it might not be the greatest threat, but it is a threat, and the very reason it possesses the capability to be a threat to India is exclusively because of the external funding that it gets. It wouldn't do as well had it been left on its own. The US literally pays for all the weapons that Pakistan buys from all over the world, including China.

China getting Russian weapons is different. They pay for it, plus Russia is not begging us to sign any LSA, CISMOA. They sell to us, they sell to China, they sell to a lot of people, including Pakistan, no strings attached. It is the US who is asking us to make all these strategic concessions in exchange for weapon sales. Hence the case of US is a unique one. It is in our interest to resist or at least delink any weapons purchase from any other legal commitment like LSA and CISMOA as a pre-condition to buying anything from them. It is a buyer's market, we will get them to sell on our terms if we negotiate properly and use all leverages. If we act like fanboys and desperadoes however, then the US will force all sorts of legal obligations on us.

If we go to the negotiating table like retards saying "OMG! your weapons are so shiny! give us your weapons, we are willing to sign on any blank paper in exchange" we will definitely get fucked.

Ridiculous arguments, where did we sign the CISMOA? neither am I advocating to sign it. Just because they asked us didn't mean we did, moreso, it turned out better for us since we could customize our purchases to some extent. EUMA hasn't been implemented. As for fanboys, there aren't bigger fanboys than Rafale fan boys, looking at the MRCA and IAF's cry of no plan-B if anything they have been doing this with the French for the last 4 years. This has allowed the French to screw us in everything from TOT, local production, price hikes, etc etc. Bottom-line 4 years later, we are still holding our dicks in our hand while the French are walking all over us.

Stop posting ridiculous posts. Learn to read what I wrote literally and stop interpreting everything into your own little skewed view.
Pakistan is threat we can handle any day.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Unfortunately it's also impossible for enemy to see Rafale at long ranges without emitting. And some sources (like IR) cannot be masked anyway.



Yes, that works as a disadvantage. But still it does not make them useless, nor does it make 5th gen strike planes able to replace 4.5 gen fighters with greater emphasis on A2A than F35, as these planes can still have equal/superior offensive capabilities thanks to modern technology combined with their inherent aerodynamic performance.

For example a BVRAAM launched by Su-35 can be fired from a much higher altitude, while flying at much higher speeds than F35 - that gives the said missile a lot farther range.

These two types can at best compliment each other. For example RAF will use Typhoons for air cover while F35 attacks ground targets.



Rafale radar+SPECTRA sensors would detect J-20 at the same or even longer ranges than F35's radar+sensors. Rafale has placed a much greater emphasis on passive detection techniques than F35 or any other fighter, save for except PAK-FA.



That is extremely relative. Even the most basic RF transmitters on Rafale are based on AESA architecture and are set to receive a GaN upgrade.



That's just one job of Spectra. Plus a system that can mimic & re-transmit your signals with enough accuracy to make it seem as if the target you're looking at has a much smaller RCS than what it really has - means this system has placed a great emphasis on signal-processing power beyond that of most EW suites.

Can the same Active Cancellation techniques be put on, say Tejas EW suite, without changing up the whole architecture, adding new sensor arrays? I don't think so.

I don't think 80km is a poor range. Atleast for a target with little to no IR-suppression methods like flat nozzles. J-20 doesn't have any. In tail-chase that range is 130km. Future upgrades will enhance the range further.

As I said, when Rafale wants to see a target that does not want to be seen, no one sensor will work alone - the IRST will be in conjunction with the radar, EW sensors and even the TV sensor (to ID the target if it's actually that close). IRST only needs to notice spikes in IR signature at those ranges (~80km) and then the radar is told to pick up scan rates in that sector while interferometry sensors also listen to waves from there.

Same is true for other sensors. If EW picks up suspicions transmissions from a sector, radar+IRST can focus there with enhanced range capability. SPECTRA does everything possible to provide best chances of tracking the enemy actively+passively.



That's right the techniques are the same. But it's the emphasis placed on these techniques in the Rafale that makes it better/unique. For example F35 would never give such importance to active cancellation because it has a stealthy airframe to begin with. But Rafale does, because it wants to obtain the advantages of electronically-reducing RCS without sacrificing aerodynamics by going for a stealthy airframe.

Besides, even the Spectra transmitters are going to get GaN at the same time as the radar does.



Sir, working in a datalinked group only increases your chances of detection. That's why aircraft with a full-on emphasis on stealth like F-117/F-22 were originally designed to work without data-link.

Besides Rafales too will be operating in groups.



But still it's likely that PAK-FA's RCS will be bigger than F35's on a clean load. By the equation you have given, F35 will be better than PAK-FA at air combat because it has lesser RCS. It doesn't work like that unfortunately. PAK-FA will still dominate any F35, F22, J20 at air combat, at any ranges.



Please refer to the Swiss evaluation reports. I suppose they were discussed on this forum also?

Quoting the whole reply since our arguments are scattered.
1) Rafale IRST could detect J20 at 80 km range in ideal conditions.but can it get range and bearing data to get a firing solution ? No, it needs laser range finder or radar both of which can't get that at from 80km distance ( assuming ideal whether and the stealth platform has no Ir suppression coating). But a couple of stealth platforms doesn't have that problem, it can get a firing solution against rafale at that range. Two stealth platforms can work together for that like i proposed in my previous post, adding one more rafle to that equation changes nothing becuse both of them can be detected and fired at but rafle can't get a firing solution from that range. All those passive sensors can give is situational awareness, but the stealth platform can get better situationl awareness by using its radar( radar gives more data than passive sensors).if rafale use its radar then it's not passive at all, even of it uses radar it needs to come much closer to get firing solutions since its dealing with extremely low rcs.



2) I don't think su 35's speed, altitude, maneuverability advantage is enough to offset the stealth advantage of f 35, if any thing they got a good chance against f 35, that's all.but the case of PAKFA is different, it has got enough stealth to denay detection until it detect the enemy and has a firing solution agaisnt the it , there the kinamatic advantage will work greatly in favour of PAKFA.

3) AESA radar is virtually in possible to decept, yes the signals can be intercepted ( with great difficulty if its lpi) , Noise jammming might also work and reduce the detection range, but successfully sending false signals(active cancellation) to aesa is virtually impossible.


4) i belive f 22 did not go for link 16 becuse it is suspectable to enemy jammming or interception. but i think f 22 has another means of communication between other f 22's and will get next gen data link in future also.

 

[Gessler]

Quoting the whole reply since our arguments are scattered.
1) Rafale IRST could detect J20 at 80 km range in ideal conditions.but can it get range and bearing data to get a firing solution ? No, it needs laser range finder or radar both of which can't get that at from 80km distance ( assuming ideal whether and the stealth platform has no Ir suppression coating). But a couple of stealth platforms doesn't have that problem, it can get a firing solution against rafale at that range. Two stealth platforms can work together for that like i proposed in my previous post, adding one more rafle to that equation changes nothing becuse both of them can be detected and fired at but rafle can't get a firing solution from that range. All those passive sensors can give is situational awareness, but the stealth platform can get better situationl awareness by using its radar( radar gives more data than passive sensors).if rafale use its radar then it's not passive at all, even of it uses radar it needs to come much closer to get firing solutions since its dealing with extremely low rcs.

Even in case of radar, the only spec talked about are the detection ranges, which does not equal a track or better still a lock. Agreed J20 can generate firing solutions against Rafale at farther ranges with radar - but doing so will negate it's stealth advantage at those ranges. Rafale only needs to know that a J20 is out there is a particular sector - the combination of sensor fusion + support from formation Rafales can & will find J20 if it's surprise element is lost. You are missing one critical point : F35 will have the same problems detecting J20 (infact even more problems as F35's passive targeting abilities are not as developed as Rafale's).

That said, the title of being a better A2A fighter includes the aspect that even if fired upon, Rafale has a better chance of shaking off missiles and re-engaging the target, than F35.

2) I don't think su 35's speed, altitude, maneuverability advantage is enough to offset the stealth advantage of f 35,

I showed you how having a better performance airframe can help increase the capabilities of your weapons. Missile launch from a higher altitude at higher initial speed can greatly increase missile's range as well as Ph/Pk as a result.

if any thing they got a good chance against f 35, that's all.but the case of PAKFA is different, it has got enough stealth to denay detection until it detect the enemy and has a firing solution agaisnt the it , there the kinamatic advantage will work greatly in favour of PAKFA.

You are basically negating your own points. As per your view of first-shot advantage, F35 can & will always see PAK-FA first and take the first shot, therefore being the dominant fighter. That is a bogus claim as I stated repeatedly ;

for a first-shot to have an advantageous kill ratio enough to dominate the engagement, it must be made sure that :

1) the enemy is totally oblivious to your presence,
2) he has no idea that he has been been seen, locked & fired upon, and
3) he is unable to shake off your missile in any way even if he tries

Basically it can work against a target tug, or an air force with planes & tech 2 generations behind your's. Against a competent enemy with equal or better technologies, it's no different than making the first move in a game of chess. It does not guarantee your victory or dominance in any way.

Otherwise we won't have USAF generals saying that unless supported by a fighter that can do great air-superiority fighting, the F-35 will be irrelevant. This wouldn't be true if the first-shot advantage is of as much relevance against competent enemies as you say it is, as the only plane that can potentially see F-35 before F35 sees it (on radar) is the F-22.

3) AESA radar is virtually in possible to decept, yes the signals can be intercepted ( with great difficulty if its lpi) , Noise jammming might also work and reduce the detection range, but successfully

You don't need to completely eliminate the signal - if it was meant to deceive 100% of the pulses received by SPECTRA sensors, Rafale would become near-completely invisible to radar. You don't need that, you only to reduce the RCS spikes around the areas where there is likely to be a big reflection (canards, weapon stations etc.) that will attenuate the returned signal enough to remove those specific spikes.

Even with this RCS spike-reduction, the target will still be seen, but only once it gets much closer.

sending false signals(active cancellation) to aesa is virtually impossible.

For older-generation systems, yes. You are assuming that we try to use active cancellation (AC) directly on the enemy radar, that's not how it works. In order to analyse or deceive an AESA signal you only need a system with much higher broadband coverage & processing power. I assume you know that tech designed for sheer calculations per second develop much faster than AESA signal-encryption/distribution methods. That, combined with AESA-based transmitters for yourself can give a reasonably high probability for deception. The addition of GaN gives better control over your pulse power ratios.

Even with current technologies it is possible to deceive AESA via AC - but usually it does not work because in general terms, you are aiming to reduce the efficiency of the enemy AESA radar. But in this case (airborne AC), Rafale is looking to reduce it's own reflection on radar.

This is easier than you think (especially if enough processing power is available). Why? Because first off, Rafale knows exactly what it's own signature looks like. In general cases, you don't know what the radar is painting, yet you try to generally jam the spectrum. Plus, Rafale will be looking to reduce very specific RCS spikes on it's airframe, it knows exactly what are the characteristics of these spikes, and how they show up on radar & what we need to do to hide them.

So when Rafale get's painted by enemy radar (or any radiowave energy in general) it will immediately start collecting the data (pings, pulses, wavelengths) and compare with previous records if available, otherwise it will take some time to analyse enough pulses to detect a pattern even on a radar with the highest LPI features. LPI does not make your radar invisible, it only takes longer to recognize your signal. When your processing power is higher, it makes the process that much easier & faster.

In the event of BVR combat, it gives Rafale enough time to analyse incoming signals.

The moment a pattern is detected & you are marked a potential hostile radar, the only thing Rafale needs to do is set the GaN AESA-based transmitters to return a fake signal based on the signal received (just analysed or previously stored), combined with the signature of the original RCS spike on Rafale (already known).

 

[Immanuel]

F-35's DAS alone in current version outperforms any sensor on the Rafale in detection ranges. Keep selling the Rafale OSF and Spectra snake oil.

 

[Immanuel]

GaN on Rafale is not available and as far as India is concerned, there is no agreement for them for Indian Rafales. F-35 on the other will probably have GaN by FOC. The gap between Rafale and F-35 for sensors will widen even further by 2020.

 

[Gessler]

F-35's DAS alone in current version outperforms any sensor on the Rafale in detection ranges. Keep selling the Rafale OSF and Spectra snake oil.

Keep hawking F35 in India. Unfortunately you will be left disappointed.

 

[Gessler]

GaN on Rafale is not available and as far as India is concerned, there is no agreement for them for Indian Rafales.

You can't contract a technology that isn't implemented yet. GaN is expected to come as a future MLU within the end of this decade.

F-35 on the other will probably have GaN by FOC. The gap between Rafale and F-35 for sensors will widen even further by 2020.

Almost every 4.5/5th gen fighter in the world could receive GaN by the time F35 gets FOC (expected 2021, likely to be delayed).

 

[Immanuel]

Keep hawking F35 in India. Unfortunately you will be left disappointed.

Time will tell darling, abhi tho bahut time hai. I just hope this Rafale deal comes to an end first, the aircraft are already around 3 years late, no thanks to the French.

 

[Gessler]

Looks like someone noticed our little debate;

R. Sarath Kumar said...
Hi Mr. Prasun...there are some rumors out there about US pressurizing India to buy the F-35C JSF and E-2D Hawkeyes as a package deal with EMALS for IAC-2. Is this true?

What plane is IN likely to get for IAC-2? Rafale-M or F-35C?

To R SARATH KUMAR: No one pressurizing anyone, rest assured. As far as carrier-based MMRCA goes, the Rafale will be the obvious choice. As far as F-35 JSF goes, it will end up as a white elephant for India unless India signs up for the foundational agreements like CISMOA. That’s why one has to date seen only those countries ordering F-35s that are alliance partners of the US through formal mutual defence treaties. The F-35 being a network-centric MRCA platform cannot be exploited to its full warfighting potential unless it functions in a network-centric warfighting environment & thus far India has taken just a few baby-steps to develop warfighting tactics using network-centric warfare concepts.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=1242533180224071129

So that's Prasun's view.
Either we 1) Become a US stooge and go for F35, or
2) Go for Rafale and retain our autonomy

India isn't going to be become a US stooge for sure. I guess no F-35 then.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Even in case of radar, the only spec talked about are the detection ranges, which does not equal a track or better still a lock. Agreed J20 can generate firing solutions against Rafale at farther ranges with radar - but doing so will negate it's stealth advantage at those ranges. Rafale only needs to know that a J20 is out there is a particular sector - the combination of sensor fusion + support from formation Rafales can & will find J20 if it's surprise element is lost. You are missing one critical point : F35 will have the same problems detecting J20 (infact even more problems as F35's passive targeting abilities are not as developed as Rafale's).

A radar tracking range is at about 80 - 85 % of its detection range. A stealth platform can afford to lose stelath from stand off ranges and lock on to rafale and feed that target data to make use of another EM silent stealth figher which is at NEZ range of its missile. If rafle needs a firing solution it must come as close to j20 where it's radar or laser range finder can provide firing solutions, A F 35 also needs to come more or less similar ranges to get firing solutions but it can afford to come that close unharmed because it's a stelth platform just like j 20 is, both of them will detect each other at similar times, both have a fair chance of detecting first depending up on the situations.Rafle on the other hand will be detected very early and fired at by a stealth platform.

That said, the title of being a better A2A fighter includes the aspect that even if fired upon, Rafale has a better chance of shaking off missiles and re-engaging the target, than F35.

I agree that rafle can shake off the missile better than f 35 because of speed and agility.

I showed you how having a better performance airframe can help increase the capabilities of your weapons. Missile launch from a higher altitude at higher initial speed can greatly increase missile's range as well as Ph/Pk as a result.



You are basically negating your own points. As per your view of first-shot advantage, F35 can & will always see PAK-FA first and take the first shot, therefore being the dominant fighter. That is a bogus claim as I stated repeatedly ;

for a first-shot to have an advantageous kill ratio enough to dominate the engagement, it must be made sure that :

1) the enemy is totally oblivious to your presence,
2) he has no idea that he has been been seen, locked & fired upon, and
3) he is unable to shake off your missile in any way even if he tries

Basically it can work against a target tug, or an air force with planes & tech 2 generations behind your's. Against a competent enemy with equal or better technologies, it's no different than making the first move in a game of chess. It does not guarantee your victory or dominance in any way.

Otherwise we won't have USAF generals saying that unless supported by a fighter that can do great air-superiority fighting, the F-35 will be irrelevant. This wouldn't be true if the first-shot advantage is of as much relevance against competent enemies as you say it is, as the only plane that can potentially see F-35 before F35 sees it (on radar) is the F-22.

I understand the positive effects of speed and altitude on the performance of bvr missiles, i never disagreed. What I am saying is that all that is relevant when you have good chance of using it. you also need to have a firing solutio by the time you are at the ranges of the NEZ of the enemy missile. That's why pak fa is better than su 35, rafale and f 35 too , pakfa has low rcs and bigger radar while F 35 has even lower Rcs and weaker radar, so both of them have a fair chance of first shot, depending up on the situations. Pak fa will get to make use of the altitude and kinamatic advantage when it fires a bvr or when it tries to shake off a incoming missile.
I don't argue that a first shot will make a kill, but a first shot will put enemy on defensive and you in control of the engagement.

US talks a out F 35 needs air support is as per their standards and worse case situations and simulations. i guess mostly they are talking about air support when F 35 going for ground strikes, that's true for any platform doing ground strike against a equally good enemy.

You don't need to completely eliminate the signal - if it was meant to deceive 100% of the pulses received by SPECTRA sensors, Rafale would become near-completely invisible to radar. You don't need that, you only to reduce the RCS spikes around the areas where there is likely to be a big reflection (canards, weapon stations etc.) that will attenuate the returned signal enough to remove those specific spikes.

Even with this RCS spike-reduction, the target will still be seen, but only once it gets much closer.



For older-generation systems, yes. You are assuming that we try to use active cancellation (AC) directly on the enemy radar, that's not how it works. In order to analyse or deceive an AESA signal you only need a system with much higher broadband coverage & processing power. I assume you know that tech designed for sheer calculations per second develop much faster than AESA signal-encryption/distribution methods. That, combined with AESA-based transmitters for yourself can give a reasonably high probability for deception. The addition of GaN gives better control over your pulse power ratios.

Even with current technologies it is possible to deceive AESA via AC - but usually it does not work because in general terms, you are aiming to reduce the efficiency of the enemy AESA radar. But in this case (airborne AC), Rafale is looking to reduce it's own reflection on radar.

This is easier than you think (especially if enough processing power is available). Why? Because first off, Rafale knows exactly what it's own signature looks like. In general cases, you don't know what the radar is painting, yet you try to generally jam the spectrum. Plus, Rafale will be looking to reduce very specific RCS spikes on it's airframe, it knows exactly what are the characteristics of these spikes, and how they show up on radar & what we need to do to hide them.

So when Rafale get's painted by enemy radar (or any radiowave energy in general) it will immediately start collecting the data (pings, pulses, wavelengths) and compare with previous records if available, otherwise it will take some time to analyse enough pulses to detect a pattern even on a radar with the highest LPI features. LPI does not make your radar invisible, it only takes longer to recognize your signal. When your processing power is higher, it makes the process that much easier & faster.

In the event of BVR combat, it gives Rafale enough time to analyse incoming signals.

The moment a pattern is detected & you are marked a potential hostile radar, the only thing Rafale needs to do is set the GaN AESA-based transmitters to return a fake signal based on the signal received (just analysed or previously stored), combined with the signature of the original RCS spike on Rafale (already known).

I will do some more reading and reply later to this active cancellation part .

 

[vishwaprasad]

F-35 Jamat here is forgetting that US had an "intrusive" inspection on our Jalashwa to see if our navy was not distorting its use

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120807/jsp/nation/story_15824270.jsp#.VqG_ONdEnDd

Imagine what will they do if IN goes for JSF.... there will be permanent US crew sitting to monitor each and every movement of those fighters like they do with PAF F-16 on Jacobabad air base....

Rafale is 4.5 generation fighter air frame with avionics of 5th generation fighter in it and tranche F4 will take in to completely different league.... if we buy it in numbers it is still capable of creating havoc even if Pak is having 1 or 2 squadrons of JSF or J-20... who knows Rafale will open doors for India to have an access to French 6th generation Nuron....

IAF knows what bird was fit for its requirement and we have to respect the decision, navy too knows better than us and if they find Rafale fits the bill without having to compromise autonomy they will walk over JSF....

 

[sorcerer]

Rafale Deal Going Through 'Complex Negotiation', Says French Envoy

NEW DELHI: French Ambassador Francois Richier on Friday said he could not comment on the outcome of the ongoing talks on the Rafale fighter plane deal with India, and added it was a "complex negotiation".

"Discussions are taking place at present. I cannot say what the outcome will be. It is a complex negotiation indeed. I don't know what is going to happen," Richier told the media here on the issue of the multi-billion dollar warplane deal that was finalised during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris in April last year.

"Of course, I am hopeful. But hopeful does not mean we have certitude. Work is being conducted with a lot of energy," the French ambassador to India said.
His comment comes two days ahead of French President Francois Hollande's official visit to India. Hollande will be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade in Delhi on January 26.
Asked if an inter-governmental agreement is expected to be signed during Hollande's visit on the deal, he said: "In any case, there will be an inter-governmental agreement because it is a government-to-government negotiation. Everything will be within this IGA and its annexure. I can confirm this because this is no surprise."


Air Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria is heading the price negotiations for the Indian side. The final contract for the 36 aircraft, including its missile system and others, for which an agreement was arrived at during Modi's visit, is expected to cost around Rs.60,000 crore.
The ambassador said: "There is no commercial contract in the Rafale deal. It is an issue between the French and the Indian government. There is no private contract involved in this deal."


Countering the contention that the French defence deal was expensive, Richier said: "I don't agree... otherwise, there will not be any business. If you look at it with a bit of precision, you'll discover it is not very expensive. In most cases, in India, there is a lot of competition. We may win, we may lose. If we win, it is (given) that we are not expensive."

Asked about the short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) project between India's Defence Research and Development Organisation and MBDA of France, he said, "We are working on it. Of course, we expect a decision on this by the Indian side. May be not now, but in the future," he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...on-says-french-envoy/articleshow/50685478.cms

 

[cobra commando]

Inter-Governmental Pact On Rafale To Be Discussed: French President

CHANDIGARH: French President Francois Hollande today said he will discuss with Prime Minister Narendra Modi the inter- governmental agreement on 36 Rafale fighter planes during his three-day India visit which started from in Chandigarh. "We are going to take another step on the road which we hope will lead us to India's acquisition of the 36 Rafale jets," he told reporters. "India needs them and France has shown that it has the world's best aircraft. The commercial contract can only come after the inter- governmental accord which will be discussed during my visit," Mr Hollande added. PM Modi had announced in Paris last year that India would buy the fighters.
Inter-Governmental Pact On Rafale To Be Discussed: French President

 

[Alien]

India signs accord to buy 36 Rafale jets from France, financial details yet to be worked out

DELHI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi said on Monday that India has agreed to buy 36 Rafale combat jets from France, but the financial details of the deal have yet to be worked out.

Modi was speaking after hosting French President Francois Hollande for talks in New Delhi.

Hollande called the Rafale deal a "decisive" step, and added that the financial issues that will be sorted out in couple of days.

The French President had said that commercial talks would have to be wrapped up to close the deal that was first announced when Modi visited France last spring.

"The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including 'Make in India', for the next 40 years. Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track", Hollande said on Sunday.

India and France have been negotiating the financial structure of the Rafale purchase from Dassault Aviation, since the announcement of the deal was made by Prime Minister Modi in April during his visit to France.

As part of that deal, there are expected to be significant "offsets", or related French investments that Prime Minister Modi hopes will support his "Make in India" initiative to develop the manufacturing sector.

Earlier on Monday, speaking at the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry, finance minister Michel Sapin said that French companies will invest $10 billion in India over the next five years, mainly in the industrial sector

PM @narendramodi begins press statement, says President @fhollande is a great friend of India pic.twitter.com/2ejkLzHLaR

— Vikas Swarup (@MEAIndia) January 25, 2016"Over the last five years, French companies have invested more than $1 billion per year in India," Sapin said in New Delhi. "We estimate that they will continue to invest at least $10 billion over the next five years."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...yet-to-be-worked-out/articleshow/50716924.cms

 

[Immanuel]

Looks like someone noticed our little debate;
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3545138702780178046&postID=1242533180224071129

So that's Prasun's view.
Either we 1) Become a US stooge and go for F35, or
2) Go for Rafale and retain our autonomy

India isn't going to be become a US stooge for sure. I guess no F-35 then.

ahahah Chor-Gupta is known for his views, best not to post his stuff here.