Know Your 'Rafale'

[Chinmoy]

As far as I know the F 35 is better than Rafale F3, in terms of strike and combat air patrol, like I said earlier It's very hard that Close combat or Dog fights can happens in future, those smart long range missile's from Fighter jets can kill any enemy air borne targets.

The idea that missiles will be all a fighter aircraft needs was prevalent in the late Fifties. The McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II carried initially only missiles, but at the start of the Vietnam war this turned out to be inadequate. As von Clausewitz said, the plan is the first casualty of war.

F-4s frequently found themselves in close-combat situations for which they were inadequately prepared. Even today, a gun gives the pilot a lot more options, and if the situation is unclear, close-up visual inspection before shooting is still vital to avoid politically embarrassing situations.

 

[Virendra]

@Immanuel @Gessler Both of you are getting personal. Address only the subject matter, not each other.
If anymore of "you" and "your" are seen, there will be strict moderation.

 

[Immanuel]

.

Hmmm ... Nice to see, F 35 vs Rafale

I personally feel, IN might love the F 35 and I sure it will come through INS VISHAL, and IN won't reluctant to invest another billions to buy some VTOL for those LHD's .. thus cheaper production line,

As far as I know the F 35 is better than Rafale F3, in terms of strike and combat air patrol, like I said earlier It's very hard that Close combat or Dog fights can happens in future, those smart long range missile's from Fighter jets can kill any enemy air borne targets.

Even if the Dog fights happens, obviously Rafale may win, once again those SAM's are better than fighter jets in terms of air superiority in friendly air space

For ground strike, take the F 35 any day,

leave those theory .. I'm well aware of those websites and S 400 Capability

Well, truth be told, F-35 might not happen on the LPD/INS Vishal but neither won't the Rafale. IN is forward thinking enough to know better to buy a 4.5 gen fighter in 5.5 gen timelines. We still do not know the delivery timelines of the INS Vishal when the F-35C could be acquired, If the carrier is expected for delivery 2027, we can go ahead and deploy Naval PAKFA on it. Again people keep thinking just because I say F-35 will be chosen for the INS Vishal doesn't meant that IN won't test fly it and know that it meets it's requirements.

No body here is rooting for US to pressure us into buying the F-35, the F-35 will be acquired if at all, on its ability perform carrier and LPD operations satisfactorily. US will use its political clout to push it forward too. By then the US/Indo relations would be mature enough to do this. US companies have now been invited for work on the next gen of India's nuke subs, that's a big thing.

IN is not interested in the Rafale, there is no official claim. I for one don't believe 'these sources' who seem to magically know everything that's happening but on the contrary till date even the IAF deal for 36 Rafale is stuck like bad constipation.

Funny thing is people are naïve enough to believe everything the pimps at Dassault have said since the beginning. They are at the heart of the mess from lies about full-tot, complete independence (while doing a U-Turn on the Russians with the Mistral when unkil nudged it) and spiraling costs. I have known hookers with more integrity. This deal is 'clean as a daisy' from IAF top management, previous babus at the MOD, current PMOs office and off course the always squeaky clean Reliance.

This deal for the IAF/IN isn't about Rafale being a good aircraft, heck I know its a great aircraft, I have seen it personally many times at airshows, up close. But from timelines, cost perspective, its just another 4.5 gen aircraft. All 4.5 gen aircraft are capable, from the Super Hornet to the MKI to the EF, they all have their advantages and disadvantages and can be used when fighting tactically to over-come the enemy. Does it justify the cost of 10 billion for 36 aircraft? Just the flyaway cost is being pegged at 5 billion, that's 135 million+ per aircraft. The 10 billion doesn't even include spares for a period of 10 years.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/why-...g-negotiated-1265787?pfrom=home-lateststories

For this kind of money we can order 100 Super MKI

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

F 35 is a stealth figher jet so it will have an edge over rafale or any 4.5 gen fighter jet even though rafle will have a better bvr missile meteor. but rafale will have an edge if the fight is wvr.however i would like to see rafale with indian navy rather than f35 because of the hawkish clues and unrealibility of American weapons.

 

[halloweene]

I don't listen i don't seek and i don't say

 

[Gessler]

I don't listen i don't seek and i don't say

I hope I'm not upsetting you with my rhetoric. I just had to do it.

 

[SajeevJino]

As I said, IN is more interested in Rafale-M than F-35 right now. Only way we'll get F35 is if IN succumbs to US pressure - not sure why some members here actually seem to be rooting for that. If IN is not interested in F35 it must be because the said aircraft does not offer the capabilities IN wants. If we are forced to buy such a plane, we should all be sad, not happy. Too bad some people don't realize that. Yet.

aww.. let the IN evaluates the F 35 and Rafale M.. The IN may float out the fighter requirement in later 2020 or so, But what I think was how the MiG 29K ended with INS Vikky, the same goes to F 35 with Vishal

As for local production, it won't be justifiable to produce an uber-costly plane like F35 here unless Navy & Air Force both buy F35 in large numbers.

100 numbers is best .. How many fighter jets do the Vishal can carry

IAF is already choked with commitments like FGFA, MMRCA, LCA, Super-MKI, maybe AMCA in future and now F-35?! IAF doesn't want any F35. Again, we would be proposing entirely new scenarios and trying to play armchair general. Not a safe thing to do.

Huh ..forget everything ... Rafale and AMCA only on the cards as of now

Only real advantage F35 has even in strike scenario is it's VLO airframe. But make no mistake, it is only stealthy in radar spectrum. It's IR signature still isn't stealthy and lack of supercruise capability further worsens this problem. What makes this even more serious is that most close-range SAMs are IR-guided.

anyway there is a advantage in F 35, is the super cruise is such important in future warfare, since see first kill first is the SOP, once again we will no more see any Dog fights

Even this VLO airframe comes at a great cost. For example, F35 can never have the kind of terrain-hugging flight features (or generally very low-altitude performance) as Rafale or even the A-10 it's supposed to replace. Basically while planes like A-10 or Su-25 get down & dirty with ground forces (therefore being a true CAS aircraft), the F35 instead chooses to stay at relatively medium altitudes and attack from there by making use of latest smart weapons.

Aerostats and AEWCS are widely deployed by countries, the rise of LLQRM and others too ...forget terrain hugging..It's the time for Stand off missiles

Thing with Rafale is, it can both get close to the ground to plot terrain-hugging flight profiles to deliver payloads under the radar (although this is not like a CAS aircraft);

only against terrorists..not with Communist China or Terrorist State of Pakistan

Let's also consider the price aspect. For all the money you'll pay for F35, you'll only be getting a good strike plane. At a cheaper price, you can get Rafale - which is a good strike plane, a good air-superiority fighter, a good interdiction aircraft, and above all a great weapons platform, all in one.

F 35 is 5th gen fighter,

Is it any wonder now that IN wants Rafale-M and not F-35C?

Did IN floated or Sent any EoI to Dassault

It's more likely than you think. It's not feasible to assume that you can detect a fighter like J-20 at long ranges and be able to kill it before it can do anything - that's the biggest one-sided BS marketing claim ever.

agreed, But I believe EOTS can

By the time modern GaAs AESA radars can as much as detect a proper stealthy aircraft, you are already entering WVR range. And a radar detected a target does not mean it can automatically track & lock them in seconds. This process is very difficult when modern ECMs are involved. At this point the pilot can even visually acquire his target and ID it.

Once again no WVR in future ... Meteor and other LR A2A rocks

Besides, as you agreed yourself, in BVR combat, weapons often matter more than the launch platform.

Yup the missile is master and the guidance Radar too

As I showed above, even in strike scenarios, there isn't much F35 can pull off that Rafale can't. Basically what F35 is designed to do is stay as far away from the target as possible and rely on modern smart bombs & cruise missiles to take out ground targets. Rafale can use any of those weapons.

better to work against modern threats..keep the aircraft safe.. Rafale will bomb the terrorists camps easily, but uses the SCALP for Syrians.

All necessary tests needed to certify S-400 as being able to to what it is meant to do have been done & dusted. The system is operational.

I'm not to agree on this ..until I get a proper information about that system

 

[SajeevJino]

The idea that missiles will be all a fighter aircraft needs was prevalent in the late Fifties. The McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II carried initially only missiles, but at the start of the Vietnam war this turned out to be inadequate. As von Clausewitz said, the plan is the first casualty of war.

F-4s frequently found themselves in close-combat situations for which they were inadequately prepared. Even today, a gun gives the pilot a lot more options, and if the situation is unclear, close-up visual inspection before shooting is still vital to avoid politically embarrassing situations.

Days changed, the technology, the doctrine too ..It's something new in every warfare

 

[Chinmoy]

Days changed, the technology, the doctrine too ..It's something new in every warfare

But some basics would always be there. If that's not have been the case, why they are still investing so much on Fighter planes when RADAR and SAM techs are getting developed leaps and bounds days in and out?

 

[Gessler]

aww.. let the IN evaluates the F 35 and Rafale M.. The IN may float out the fighter requirement in later 2020 or so, But what I think was how the MiG 29K ended with INS Vikky, the same goes to F 35 with Vishal

Fine lol. Everyone is indeed entitled to their individual opinions. I have just put forth my views, if you don't agree with them I'm not going to force you to agree.

anyway there is a advantage in F 35, is the super cruise is such important in future warfare, since see first kill first is the SOP, once again we will no more see any Dog fights

I have already shown you how combat between 2 stealth fighters at BVR ranges is difficult with current technology. If you don't agree with that and instead chose to believe in the whole "see, shoot & kill before enemy knows what happened" nonsense, I can't help.

That concept might work if 5th gen VLO planes go up against 3rd/early 4th gen planes. But that's an unlikely scenario between 2 big powers.

Aerostats and AEWCS are widely deployed by countries, the rise of LLQRM and others too ...forget terrain hugging..It's the time for Stand off missiles

Another such 'perfect day' scenario. I have already shown that as far as modern smart weapons go, the Rafale can make use of anything F35 can. Plus it gives the double advantage of being able to carry out a terrain-hugging flight regime if such weapons are unavailable or cannot be used for whatever reason.

only against terrorists..not with Communist China or Terrorist State of Pakistan

Lol why not? Infact such capabilities are more important against stronger enemies because unlike rebel forces/ISIS, these countries can deploy highly advanced SAMs, interceptor missiles, electronic countermeasures and huge layers of jamming & surveillance systems (like what China deploys in Tibet) that can jam or knock out incoming missiles.

Against petty terrorists...you can comfortably fly at an altitude and use whatever weapons you have. Often the best air/missile defence they have is a Stinger MANPAD You don't need a high-performance omni-role fighter to take out those targets. A bomb truck like F35 is enough.

F 35 is 5th gen Strike plane,

Corrected it for you!

Did IN floated or Sent any EoI to Dassault

Not yet. Atleast not officially.

agreed, But I believe EOTS can

The EOTS is not a primary A2A sensor. Plus just like any other IRST it's performance is limited by weather, cloud cover, ambient heat. Plus it has the added disadvantage of not being able to detect non-afterburning targets at good ranges. I've already shown you how OSF is leagues ahead, atleast as far as A2A combat is concerned.

Plus detection is only half the game - as we've already discussed. The engagement range is limited by the range of your missiles. The IR-guided missiles on F35 are all WVRAAMs. So even under a clear sky on a perfect day if you manage to see a J-20 at BVR ranges using EOTS....you can't shoot it unless it comes within WVR range....at which point even your radar can it.

 

[Immanuel]

F 35 is a stealth figher jet so it will have an edge over rafale or any 4.5 gen fighter jet even though rafle will have a better bvr missile meteor. but rafale will have an edge if the fight is wvr.however i would like to see rafale with indian navy rather than f35 because of the hawkish clues and unrealibility of American weapons.

Unrelibility of US weapons? What do you mean, interms of quality or the possbility of sanctions/ shortage of supplies etc.

 

[Immanuel]

F-35 has 7 IRSTs as it has fully spherical wide FOV system in DAS and narrow FOV (very long range) system in EOTS. Rafale does have forward sector looking FSO which definitely does not have anywhere similarly long range performance as EOTS. It has less capable IR detector and much wider FOV as all such IRST systems have due to smaller physical dimensions which leave less space for optics. FSO is definitely a good system and gives Rafale good capabilities but EOTS is newer, larger and a more capable system. Rafale has two DDM-NG IR sensors which are used only for MAWS functionality which cover the sphere around the aircraft. F-35 DAS has 6 higher resolution sensors which should give 2 to 5 times longer detection range due to having 2 times smaller FOV, higher resolution and rectilinear lens which does not produce such distortion as fisheye lens used in DDM-NG. More importantly DAS has far more functionalities than simply being MAWS system. It can detect, track and ID both enemy and friendly aircraft, be used in navigation, detect and classify ground fire (including AAA) etc. Also the pilot can see what DAS sensors see directly in his helmet. Rafale pilot can not do this with DDM-NG. So even in dogfight F-35 pilots would have huge SA advantage.

 

[Gessler]

F-35 has 7 IRSTs as it has fully spherical wide FOV system in DAS and narrow FOV (very long range) system in EOTS. Rafale does have forward sector looking FSO which definitely does not have anywhere similarly long range performance as EOTS. It has less capable IR detector and much wider FOV as all such IRST systems have due to smaller physical dimensions which leave less space for optics. FSO is definitely a good system and gives Rafale good capabilities but EOTS is newer, larger and a more capable system. Rafale has two DDM-NG IR sensors which are used only for MAWS functionality which cover the sphere around the aircraft. F-35 DAS has 6 higher resolution sensors which should give 2 to 5 times longer detection range due to having 2 times smaller FOV, higher resolution and rectilinear lens which does not produce such distortion as fisheye lens used in DDM-NG. More importantly DAS has far more functionalities than simply being MAWS system. It can detect, track and ID both enemy and friendly aircraft, be used in navigation, detect and classify ground fire (including AAA) etc. Also the pilot can see what DAS sensors see directly in his helmet. Rafale pilot can not do this with DDM-NG. So even in dogfight F-35 pilots would have huge SA advantage.

You seem to be averse to inflow of information. Not my problem.

I admitted long ago that FSO+WSO provide horizontrol coverage and that full spherical coverage around the aircraft wouldn't be possible until additional sensors are mounted around the airframe.

That said, your post appears to be a copy-paste job from some company website or from those idiots at f-16.net.

I have already shown, with sources, that EOTS which operates in a single-channel wavelength cannot have better sensitivity to targets than a system like OSF that operates in dual wavelengths. For example, EOTS is unable to detect a fighter-sized target at any meaningful BVR range, unless said target is using afterburners. Which in essence means it doesn't do well against targets that don't want to be seen.

It must take a uniquely retarded person to question why you need strobe lights for long-distance when you have a flashlight on your smartphone. It simply isn't designed to work at those ranges.

About range, come back when you have someone saying EOTS can pick up fighter-sized targets at ranges of 80 to 130km. Someone seems to have forgotten that OSF is a QWIP-based IRST. Or maybe the person concerned does not understand what QWIP is, at all.

DAS on the other is, concerning A2A combat, never meant to target, ID and track fighter-sized targets at BVR ranges, so no big advantage over WSO in that dept. As for incoming AAMs, they will be detected at WVR ranges, at which point it's doing the same job as DDM-NG does.

Either way, the marginal advantage provided by F-35's electronics is simply not worth the additional money, time, effort and risks involved. I have stated that repeatedly in this very thread.

--

Not sure what good is being able to see your target, unless you're actually able to do something about it! Any 4.5 gen (even most 4th gen) planes can whoop F35's a$$ in a dogfight, even without having anything like DAS.

My argument with you is over. I have made my points very clear and I don't wish to escalate this into a name-calling slugfest that you seem so intent on turning this into - please proceed talking to walls about why India should go for F-35.

 

[Immanuel]

You seem to be averse to inflow of information. Not my problem.

I admitted long ago that FSO+WSO provide horizontrol coverage and that full spherical coverage around the aircraft wouldn't be possible until additional sensors are mounted around the airframe.

That said, your post appears to be a copy-paste job from some company website or from those idiots at f-16.net.

I have already shown, with sources, that EOTS which operates in a single-channel wavelength cannot have better sensitivity to targets than a system like OSF that operates in dual wavelengths. For example, EOTS is unable to detect a fighter-sized target at any meaningful BVR range, unless said target is using afterburners. Which in essence means it doesn't do well against targets that don't want to be seen.

It must take a uniquely retarded person to question why you need strobe lights for long-distance when you have a flashlight on your smartphone. It simply isn't designed to work at those ranges.

DAS on the other is, concerning A2A combat, never meant to target, ID and track fighter-sized targets at BVR ranges, so no big advantage over WSO in that dept. As for missiles, they will be detected at WVR ranges, at which point it's doing the same job as DDM-NG does.

Either way, the marginal advantage provided by F-35's electronics is simply not worth the additional money, time, effort and risks involved. I have stated that repeatedly in this very thread.

Not sure what good is being able to see your target, unless you're actually able to do something about it! Any 4.5 gen (even most 4th gen) planes can whoop F35's a$$ in a dogfight, even without having anything like DAS.

EOTS should quite easily regardless of single channel wavelength be able to detect aircraft at well over 50NM, which is BVR enough for engagements within the effective kill envelope of BVR missiles. DAS can very well pick out targets hundreds of KMs away regardless of target type i.e including aircraft from miles and miles away. Considering it picks out missiles launches at over 1200KM away, it should be able to spot the Rafale and its payload well over 150km away. DDM-NG barely has a 1/4 of the ranges that DAS works with. As for additional money, the price of the Rafale being offered now for India is 138 million per unit, thats roughly the same as the F-35, hence pricing is the same. Effort?? What about the last 4 years lost to the efforts of trying to buying the Rafale, if anything Rafale deal has needed more effort than any other defence deal in the country so far. It also appears to be far from over. Ram jaane. Risk? What risk really? No one is asking for the F-35 to be ordered right away. Best to order FOC verions in 2020/21 for the IN on the Juan Carlos to be delivered 2023 when hopefully the 1st ship is ready. 40 more for the INS Vishal class carrier after the 1st 48 for the LPDs are delivered.

Not really advocating the F-35 for the IAF, they are better off with 54-72 more Super MKI and an off the shelf purchase of 54 PAKFA with more to be made in India under licence next decade. I bet we can have 36 or more PAKFA delivered if ordred now before the 36 rafale are delivered.


As for dogfights, the better pilot will come out on top, F-35 will have an absolute sensory advantage over anything going into dogfight, from the next gen helmets to SA, he will have an easier fight. FOC F-35 will also have uprated engines, aerial performance should be even better.

 

[Ved]

F35 need aircover of F22 in all scenarios. F22 need F35 for ground attack.
Such scenarois are not in favour of any nation. Thats the catch. Multirole is where Rafale beats them both.

In Indian perspective , with two hostile neighbours at horizon you need multirole fighters in your squadrons. One Rafale does the job of one F22 and one F35 combined.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Unrelibility of US weapons? What do you mean, interms of quality or the possbility of sanctions/ shortage of supplies etc.

Their hawkish clauses EUMA, CISMOA, and so on. Given our recent experience of US trying to spy on india, it's even more dangerous to buy more and more US systems.

 

[SajeevJino]

.meanwhile about the LSA and CISMOA

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

You were and are very happy with Mirage 2000. It will be at least the same with Rafale. But Rafale more powerfull, more versatile, more efficient.
You're right to developp your Tejas, but you find it's a harsh way to developp your own fighter.... and Tejas is not mature yet.

He wasn't talking about the quality of the products or customer satisfaction. Of course we were satisfied with the performance of Mirage. But getting what we paid for, and building our own jets are two mutually exclusive entities. Indegenization is the need of the hour and its strategic importance to India is dawning upon our leaders and civilians alike. It doesn't have anything to do with the quality of French planes. That's completely redundant. Unfortunately we are forced to opt for Rafale because our indigenous plans are stuck. Buying Rafale is our second best option. First option is always making our own.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

F35 need aircover of F22 in all scenarios. F22 need F35 for ground attack.
Such scenarois are not in favour of any nation. Thats the catch. Multirole is where Rafale beats them both.

In Indian perspective , with two hostile neighbours at horizon you need multirole fighters in your squadrons. One Rafale does the job of one F22 and one F35 combined.

F 35 is the multirole fighter jet, f22 is pure air superiority fighter. F 35 being a stealth figher jet is better than rafale, once meteor is integrated with f 35 rafale's meteor advantage also will be gone.All the talks about f 35 needing f 22 to survive is from US perspectives, a worse case sitiation kind of thing. F 15 is used to be the air superiority fighter which supported f 16, but that doesnt mean f 16 can't survive with out f 15, ideally it's good to have a specialist air superiority fighter but a multirole can survive even with out the specialists against most of the enemies.

 

[Immanuel]

F35 need aircover of F22 in all scenarios. F22 need F35 for ground attack.
Such scenarois are not in favour of any nation. Thats the catch. Multirole is where Rafale beats them both.

In Indian perspective , with two hostile neighbours at horizon you need multirole fighters in your squadrons. One Rafale does the job of one F22 and one F35 combined.

Well that's quite a naive statement to say the least, the USN will use the F-35C as it primary multirole fighter and they will not rely on any other aircraft other than the Super Hornet for additional roles. That said, the FOC F-35 on any given day should be able to hold its own against any modern 4.5 or 5th gen threat. In a pure A2A role, it can carry 6 A2A missiles internally while being in stealth mode, radars out on DAS/EOTS alone it can track most 4.5 gen aircraft at well over 150-200km+ away without being spotted. Being in a buddy pair, armed with the likes of Aim-120D, they are quite potent to say the least. F-35 will eventually carry weapons like the Meteor, I-Derby-ER, CUDA, Python-5. Being far stealthier than any current 4.5 gen aircraft inclduing Rafale, EF and others, it can sneak up onto fighters, fire its weapons with-in the high PK kill range of its BVR missiles and have a higher probability of a 1st shot kill.