Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

I have comparisons to gauge it with.
Australia is buying twice the amount of F-35s (72)and weapons, trainings and facilities for 12.6bn as opposed to India's 36 Rafales which may or may not include weapons for 9bn

Saudi had a deal 72 Typhoons for 4.4bn IIRC



Also I think you are confused between million and billion. 80 billion per fighter would be a nightmare.

The ink of the contract isn't put on paper but you know it's 9bn ??? YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS GUY.

 

[BON PLAN]

India Confirms Order for IAF's Rafale Deal With France


By IANS

Published: 04th January 2016 08:27 PM

Last Updated: 04th January 2016 08:27 PM

• Photos

• 
  
  
  According to sources, documents for the government-to-government deal were delivered by New Delhi to Paris on New Year's eve, and the agreement is on the same lines as that for the Mirage 2000 aircraft signed in the early 1980s. | File Reuters

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force's quest for a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is finally over with the Indian government confirming the order for 36 Rafale jets with the French government.

According to sources, documents for the government-to-government deal were delivered by New Delhi to Paris on New Year's eve, and the agreement is on the same lines as that for the Mirage 2000 aircraft signed in the early 1980s. IAF will buy all the Rafale aircraft from Dassault, the French aircraft builder and integrator, in a flyaway condition.

As the deal is between governments, the French authorities will ensure that Dassault complies with the terms of reference as it has successfully done in the case of Mirage 2000 -- about 60 of which were delivered beginning 1985. The basic agreement was for 49 and 10 more were acquired later.

Significantly, this is the second deal for IAF - and Indian Army - within one week, the other being for Russian Kamov-31 helicopters signed on Christmas Eve with the Russian Government in Moscow during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit there. That deal involves substantial manufacture of these machines in India as the number is large -- more than 200.

It may be noted that originally IAF was to acquire 126 aircraft after the Rafale was selected in the MMRCA competition some time back, 18 in flyaway condition and 108 as progressively assembled and made in India by HAL under part Transfer of Technology (ToT). Private industry was to be involved, but HAL's share was negotiated as more than 70 percent.

There were a lot of hiccups, over costs of the aircraft -- over $100 million-plus per aircraft -- and offsets from the Indian side and responsibility over the quality of production in India from the French side. Finally, keeping in mind IAF's urgent requirements, the prime minister intervened to order 36 aircraft, or two squadrons, in a direct government-to-government deal during his visit to Paris in April.

This time, the deal involved no production in India but there were still some hiccups over the 50 percent stipulated offsets although aircraft costs would by and large have been the same as for the French Air Force (Armée de l'Air). Offset obligations would always be additional.

Modi, intervening again, spoke directly with French President Francois Hollande on telephone in early September, and expressed difficulty in concluding the deal without the offsets. Hollande graciously agreed, and IAF approved the deal in mid-December. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) delivered a copy of the Inter-Government Agreement in this regard through the established diplomatic channels just as the New Year was set to begin.

Under the deal, Dassault and its main partners -- engine-maker Safran and electronic systems-maker Thales -- will share some technology with DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and maybe some private sector companies and HAL under the offsets clause. Details are not known but as the aircraft have to be flown and maintained in India for at least three-to-four decades, a lot of information and technology upgrades will be needed to keep them operational.

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks, is nuclear- capable and, thanks to its onboard Electronic Warfare (EW) systems, can also perform reconnaissance and radar jamming roles.

The deal involves delivery of aircraft to begin within three years of signing the agreement -- 2018-end in this case -- but French industry sources told this writer some time back in Paris that Dassault had started planning for the Indian order from mid-2015 itself, and "maybe the deliveries could be faster, if required".

Last year had been lucky for Dassault as the Rafale has also been selected by Egypt and Qatar, while the UAE is considering it seriously.

There are suddenly too many orders, and the only way to meet them is to divert the French Air Force requirements for the next few years. That is being done.

 

[BON PLAN]

I have comparisons to gauge it with.
Australia is buying twice the amount of F-35s (72)and weapons, trainings and facilities for 12.6bn as opposed to India's 36 Rafales which may or may not include weapons for 9bn

Saudi had a deal 72 Typhoons for 4.4bn IIRC



Also I think you are confused between million and billion. 80 billion per fighter would be a nightmare.

The ink isn't put on paper but YOU know it's 9bn ??? YOU'RE NOT SERIOUS GUY.

 

[Gessler]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/01/all-clear-india-to-sign-deal-for-36.html

The all-clear is here, and there's no way to tell it but straight. Livefist can confirm that India and France are all set to sign a government-to-government deal this month for the supply of 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets to the Indian Air Force. A crucial final meeting on Monday, Jan 18 of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will provide final approval, paving the way for contract signature. France's Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, a man plenty familiar with India as a result of the meandering Rafale process, arrives in Delhi when the DAC meets, spurring reports that an agreement has already been reached -- with formalities pending.

All 36 jets will be supplied in flyaway form from Dassault's facility near the Bordeaux–Mérignac Airport. The deal will be signed on January 25 in the presence of Prime Minister Narendra Modi & French President François Hollande who will be in Delhi later this month as chief guest at India's Republic Day Parade.

 

[Gessler]

Credit to Parikrama on the other forum

"
Source Based Info:

1. The deal is for 36+18
2. India has assured a minimum of 80+ flyaway in increments bought from Merignac plan
3. The 50% plan offset under DPP 2016 is the route for MII
4. The IN has requested MOD for IAC 1 modified type 2 more carriers and IAC2 type 2 carriers. IAC1 modified version will carry 2 squadrons of Rafale M. Coupled with land based training and needs is normally totalled 1.5 - 2 x the ACC birds so around 50 birds per IAC1 mod type is planned for purchase. This need implies 100 Rafale M straight forward and perhaps another 1-2 squads for shore based totalling 120-140 odd Rafale M for conventional carriers upto 2030.
5. MOD has not approved this plan as of now and has indicated a detailed meeting soon.
6. IAC 2 N propulsion plans may add either another 100-150 odd rafales at 3 squadrons per carrier with land based reserves all together totaling approx 8 squardrons. USA has offerred F35 for such numbers with customisations
7. IAC2 aircraft decision not yet taken and discussion for a suitable package underway negotiated with both Dassault and LM
8. IAF has defined SFC need 80+ Rafales and 6 squadrons for activities totaling close to 190"

 

[Ved]

If budget supports then numbers are not a constraint. In current budget its not possible to stretch beyond 36. We need weapons , simulators, stores and base depot to be in place for these Rafales.

Naval Rafales is out of question right now. Mig29 k is better option in terms of cost.

May be options of 18 more Rafales may be included but not beyond that. We need to pay for Apaches, Chinooks, M777 and many more off the shelf deals are lined up.

Unless we start exporting military hardware which offsets the balance in our favour and generate revenue we would never have funds to expand the Rafale squadrons.

Yes Tejas MK1A around 100 in numbers ordered seem enough for area defence along with Mig29UPG and Mirage 2000 for western theatre. Rafales will be used predominantly in strike role and will most likely be used in BVR roles and strategic strike role.

 

[warrior monk]

Credit to Parikrama on the other forum

"
Source Based Info:

1. The deal is for 36+18
2. India has assured a minimum of 80+ flyaway in increments bought from Merignac plan
3. The 50% plan offset under DPP 2016 is the route for MII
4. The IN has requested MOD for IAC 1 modified type 2 more carriers and IAC2 type 2 carriers. IAC1 modified version will carry 2 squadrons of Rafale M. Coupled with land based training and needs is normally totalled 1.5 - 2 x the ACC birds so around 50 birds per IAC1 mod type is planned for purchase. This need implies 100 Rafale M straight forward and perhaps another 1-2 squads for shore based totalling 120-140 odd Rafale M for conventional carriers upto 2030.
5. MOD has not approved this plan as of now and has indicated a detailed meeting soon.
6. IAC 2 N propulsion plans may add either another 100-150 odd rafales at 3 squadrons per carrier with land based reserves all together totaling approx 8 squardrons. USA has offerred F35 for such numbers with customisations
7. IAC2 aircraft decision not yet taken and discussion for a suitable package underway negotiated with both Dassault and LM
8. IAF has defined SFC need 80+ Rafales and 6 squadrons for activities totaling close to 190"

Few Questions

1 ) Can you enlighten us about talks at Merignac according to what is available in the public domain Modi's talks with Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux has not been made public .

2) Has DPP 2016 been released and if released is the 50% offset policy been made compulsory for just this deal or for all subsequent deals .

3) I think I was under the impression that nuclear powered carriers being built under Indo-US JWGACT we were supposed to order the catobar variant F-35C in lieu of the General atomics EMALS we are getting.

4) I think the idea of buying 80+ Rafales for SFC is not a good one because 46 Flankers for our SFC is being finalized with Brahmos with FBF warhead unless the french are offering us the air breathing ASMP ( Air-Sol Moyenne Portée) even still our FBF warhead will probably be larger and will not fit on ASMP.

Thanks

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Huh ..I would like the Navy may go with the F 35 B or C versions.

We have IAC 1, IAC 2, and those four LHD's. The F 35 B and C version perfectly fits the needs, The IN is something new to Dassault, So they need new setup for everything, wisely they can spend those money on F 35. Cost wise F 35 and Rafale M is similar. As F 35 it gets more advantages which include Modern weapons in terms of air to ground and Air to maritime targets.

F 35 also perform counter air missions over the CBG. without being detected ..Not to forget the CUDA along with EOTS

The Americans too happy If we select the F 35, because we buy those EMAL, Nuke Propulsion and Carrier Design.

Let the IAF keep the Rafale in more numbers, Under SFC some two squad of Rafale, others to IAF regular squad

 

[Gessler]

Few Questions

1 ) Can you enlighten us about talks at Merignac according to what is available in the public domain Modi's talks with Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux has not been made public .

I've been trying to get a hold of that info myself without success so far. The deal is going a bit wobbly, things will become clearer after 18th. It is still highly likely that final contract signatures will happen on the 25th.

2) Has DPP 2016 been released and if released is the 50% offset policy been made compulsory for just this deal or for all subsequent deals .

I don't have the specifics, I wouldn't know if they chose to implement the offsets policy for one deal at a time or not. However, common sense dictates that DPP applies to all purchases done under the MoD, so it should apply to all eventually.

3) I think I was under the impression that nuclear powered carriers being built under Indo-US JWGACT we were supposed to order the catobar variant F-35C in lieu of the General atomics EMALS we are getting.

The yanks are indeed applying pressure on IN/MoD to accept the F-35C and the E-2D Hawkeye as a package along with EMALS. But IN isn't in for the idea - they are ok with E-2D but they likely think that an investment in JSF is a waste of money. They are more interested in the Rafale-M, and with upgrades including technologies like Active Cancellation etc., the Rafale can easily fulfill all IN's needs well into the future.

If and when they want to acquire a 5th gen aircraft, they'll want to go for swingroles like N-FGFA or N-AMCA...but F-35 which is essentially a strike aircraft isn't IN's idea of an air-wing for it's flagship carrier-class.

4) I think the idea of buying 80+ Rafales for SFC is not a good one because 46 Flankers for our SFC is being finalized with Brahmos with FBF warhead

An ex-IN Harrier pilot I'm in touch with on other forums says that SFC indeed will go for advanced Super-Sukhois. Their orders will allow MKI production mill to reach ~350 units.

unless the french are offering us the air breathing ASMP ( Air-Sol Moyenne Portée) even still our FBF warhead will probably be larger and will not fit on ASMP.

We neither want nor need the ASMP-A. We already have BrahMos, BrahMos-NG & air-launched Nirbhay in the works while a supersonic LRCM is also supposed to be in development....not to mention the hypersonic BrahMos-II that would be in service by end of this decade. It's possible they'll even cancel LRCM and go for some additional versions of the hypersonic missiles.

 

[Gessler]

.

Huh ..I would like the Navy may go with the F 35 B or C versions.

We have IAC 1, IAC 2, and those four LHD's. The F 35 B and C version perfectly fits the needs, The IN is something new to Dassault, So they need new setup for everything, wisely they can spend those money on F 35. Cost wise F 35 and Rafale M is similar. As F 35 it gets more advantages which include Modern weapons in terms of air to ground and Air to maritime targets.

F 35 also perform counter air missions over the CBG. without being detected ..Not to forget the CUDA along with EOTS

IN does not want F-35, it doesn't need it neither. Trust me on that.

The F-35 is a tactical strike aircraft. It will not survive any air combat with modern 4.5 or 5th gen planes unless it is supported by dedicated air-superiority aircraft...it's performance is abysmal compared to any A2A fighter standards - no supercruise, carries a pitifully small internal payload, poor aerodynamics and turn rates, the list of reasons why it is unsuitable as an A2A fighter is endless. It's only good point is that it has a low-RCS airframe, and incorporates NG electronics, a great radar and all-round EO situational awareness. But these features are NOT UNIQUE to the F-35, as you will see.

Rafale on the other hand can manage A2A and A2G missions with equal efficiency. It has superb aerodynamic performance, can supercruise, has a massive payload capacity & flexibility, AND has a relatively low-observable airframe as well, although nowhere close to a true VLO design. But consider where Rafale stands on features that really make the F-35 lucrative : electronics. Rafale is right up there on top. It's electronics are on a par with any 5th gen aircraft including F-35.

> It has a great AESA radar that will incorporate GaN fabrication process (a league ahead of GaAs process used in traditional AESA radars). A GaN-based TRM can have upto 5 times the transmitting power of a GaAs-based TRM.

> It also has 360-degree horizontal EO situational awareness. Have you heard of the OSF (Front Sector Optronics in English) on the nose of Rafale? A similar system called DDM-NG which is a WSO (Wide-sector Optronics), this is to be installed on the tailfin. This gives it a fully capable distributed aperture (FSO+WSO all connect to SPECTRA) that can rival any 5th gen situational awareness system.

Vertical coverage will be enhanced once additional airframe-mounted sensors are installed - it's in the plans.

> It will incorporate advanced Active Stealth methods that can mitigate external payloads and airframe RCS spikes to a great extent. Lemme know if you haven't heard of Rafale's active cancellation technologies being implemented and I'll give you a full rundown.

Do not fall for the whole stealth hype - the F-35's stealth features are overhyped and practically unviable. With a pitifully small internal load it will always have to carry external weapons to be equally effective as previous gen fighters. Missiles like CUDA are anachronisms that are designed to work within given parameter limits. Because F-35 has a small bay, they want to build small missiles. But what about 4.5 gen planes or 5th gen planes bigger than F35? They can still carry a lot more CUDAs than F-35 ever could!

That said there is no NATO-origin weapon system that can be carried by F-35 but cannot be used by Rafale. On the other hand, Rafale offers us the flexibility to install our own weapons on it if we like.

In a pitched air battle with equal support assets, Rafale will eat the F35.

The Americans too happy If we select the F 35, because we buy those EMAL, Nuke Propulsion and Carrier Design.

All that IN wants from US is the EMALS tech. The carrier is our own design - we just need US help to see what our carrier needs to incorporate a system like EMALS. Based on this information an upscaled PWR will be developed by BARC/DAE.

Let the IAF keep the Rafale in more numbers, Under SFC some two squad of Rafale, others to IAF regular squad

As I said above it could be unlikely that SFC would take Rafale in those numbers, or at all. They are more intent right now on MKI. Reason appears to be that if they bank on Rafale they won't get them till 2025 or beyond, because any new Rafale is likely to be lapped up by IAF first.

 

[Gessler]

@SajeevJino About flying F-35Bs off LHDs and the like...unless we have an all-encompassing expeditionary force like the Marine Corps, investing in a VSTOL 5th gen jet makes little sense. Only Navies interested in the F-35B are those who's carriers are unable to support the C version.

 

[SajeevJino]

IN does not want F-35, it doesn't need it neither. Trust me on that.

I always love to see our LHD's can carry those fighter jets..and there is only one option available that's the F 35 B, that's the foremost reason moving with more F 35 in other air craft carriers. Six F 35 B in single LHD gives 24 F 35 alone for our LHD's.

The F-35 is a tactical strike aircraft. It will not survive any air combat with modern 4.5 or 5th gen planes unless it is supported by dedicated air-superiority aircraft...it's performance is abysmal compared to any A2A fighter standards - no supercruise, carries a pitifully small internal payload,

The sensor wise the F 35 is superior than all other 4.5 gen planes. I think it's superior compared to EFT, Rafale and Gripen NG. other hand which Fifth gen fighters could pose a threat against IN. that's the J 20 only, in our domain we need to confront against those flankers and other Chinese jets. I sure F 35 is much better when dealing against such threats.

I always worry, what if our Rafale M do when it faces the J 20. I think the generation cap is important. Also there is no chance of adding those R-M in our LHD's.

The F 35 can carry four AA missiles in it's internal bay. Radar guided or the EOTS guided. I sure the EOTS or the Radar can find the enemy aircraft first not the 4.5 Gen fighter or say Rafale M. If you have any sources to reject the above please provide..

I think four Air to air missile is better for counter air missions..!!

Super cruise is the only area F 35 has disadvantage.

poor aerodynamics and turn rates, the list of reasons why it is unsuitable as an A2A fighter is endless.

You sure in Future we can see dog fights ..! see first shoot first RTB first is the theory ....I think

It's only good point is that it has a low-RCS airframe, and incorporates NG electronics, a great radar and all-round EO situational awareness. But these features are NOT UNIQUE to the F-35, as you will see.

Not Unique.. We can configure our F 35 to share info to our SATCOM, Phalcon, Ships and LRTR.. this can be achived isn't ..Israel don't have Link 16 Still they added something in F 35 to communicate with other Israeli systems.

Rafale on the other hand can manage A2A and A2G missions with equal efficiency. It has superb aerodynamic performance, can supercruise, has a massive payload capacity & flexibility, AND has a relatively low-observable airframe as well, although nowhere close to a true VLO design. But consider where Rafale stands on features that really make the F-35 lucrative : electronics. Rafale is right up there on top. It's electronics are on a par with any 5th gen aircraft including F-35.

There is no doubt that Rafale is superior.. My question is will the Rafale can beat any Fifth gen fighter.. lets say the J 20. F 35 too carry some four A2A and six other air to ground weapons in non stealth config.

> It has a great AESA radar that will incorporate GaN fabrication process (a league ahead of GaAs process used in traditional AESA radars). A GaN-based TRM can have upto 5 times the transmitting power of a GaAs-based TRM.

Comparison with APG 81 please.

Is the GaN based fighter Airborne radar available ..!! I think nations still on initial phase of works

> It also has 360-degree horizontal EO situational awareness. Have you heard of the OSF (Front Sector Optronics in English) on the nose of Rafale? A similar system called DDM-NG which is a WSO (Wide-sector Optronics), this is to be installed on the tailfin. This gives it a fully capable distributed aperture (FSO+WSO all connect to SPECTRA) that can rival any 5th gen situational awareness system.

Vertical coverage will be enhanced once additional airframe-mounted sensors are installed - it's in the plans.

Huh ..Then I can easily say EOTS and DAS is the answer against the OSF and DDM NG. @halloweene your call ..!!

OSF & DDM NG vs EOTS

Spectra vs Barracuda

Anyone ready for a new thread

> It will incorporate advanced Active Stealth methods that can mitigate external payloads and airframe RCS spikes to a great extent. Lemme know if you haven't heard of Rafale's active cancellation technologies being implemented and I'll give you a full rundown.

Thanks ...any video representation through You Tube is better..

Do not fall for the whole stealth hype - the F-35's stealth features are overhyped and practically unviable. With a pitifully small internal load it will always have to carry external weapons to be equally effective as previous gen fighters. Missiles like CUDA are anachronisms that are designed to work within given parameter limits. Because F-35 has a small bay, they want to build small missiles. But what about 4.5 gen planes or 5th gen planes bigger than F35? They can still carry a lot more CUDAs than F-35 ever could!

aww... How ..anyone can't easily fall when they see the Senors and EOTS

the proposed plan ..!! No air to ground stand off missiles from Internal bay .. But some good glide bombs..

I heard the CUDA is a EOTS guided missile for long range interception without using the Radar. I sure the program did exists.. !

That said there is no NATO-origin weapon system that can be carried by F-35 but cannot be used by Rafale. On the other hand, Rafale offers us the flexibility to install our own weapons on it if we like.

Agreed ..! and it's a truth US won't allow us to add our weapons into F 35 ..

In a pitched air battle with equal support assets, Rafale will eat the F35.

with the Meteor.. can the Rafale good enough to lock the Rafale using Radar... in close combat lets say some 50 km zone... Rafale and F 35 has same chance ... hence EOTS vs OSF

All that IN wants from US is the EMALS tech. The carrier is our own design - we just need US help to see what our carrier needs to incorporate a system like EMALS. Based on this information an upscaled PWR will be developed by BARC/DAE.

I heard they assist in Propulsion and design too..

Carter noted the progress on "cooperation on jet engines, and aircraft carrier design and construction, as well as opportunities to collaborate on additional projects."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/12/11/india-seeks-us-know-how-for-new-aircraft-carrier.html

any other links claiming your source is better to discuss further about US India work on carrier Program
I heard - 1, EMAL, 2, Design, 3, Propulsion

As I said above it could be unlikely that SFC would take Rafale in those numbers, or at all. They are more intent right now on MKI. Reason appears to be that if they bank on Rafale they won't get them till 2025 or beyond, because any new Rafale is likely to be lapped up by IAF first.

I too ....!! let the SFC use the MKI along with couple of Jags

 

[SajeevJino]

.
Always love to debate on facts.. it's been so long time since saw some good posts and debates here in DFI ... welcome once again @Gessler

 

[SajeevJino]

@SajeevJino About flying F-35Bs off LHDs and the like...unless we have an all-encompassing expeditionary force like the Marine Corps, investing in a VSTOL 5th gen jet makes little sense. Only Navies interested in the F-35B are those who's carriers are unable to support the C version.

Huh ..we do have such forces .. Like Andaman command and Amphibious units ..!!

 

[Gessler]

I always love to see our LHD's can carry those fighter jets..and there is only one option available that's the F 35 B, that's the foremost reason moving with more F 35 in other air craft carriers. Six F 35 B in single LHD gives 24 F 35 alone for our LHD's.

First of all, we need to understand the requirement before we try to address the solution. Now, has the
Navy ever said that they want their LHDs to be operating VSTOL jets? Answer is no. What IN needs from these LHDs is an amphibious warfare capability that can deploy marine warfare units. And what IN wants flying from these LHDs are rotary-wing assets that can support this huge ground force. That includes the likes of S-70B, CH-148, Dhruv, and maybe V-22 and LCH/Sea Apache too.

Any such marine warfare is likely to happen within IOR, or Gulf of Aden which are completely within reach of our Navy.

The Marine Corps of US on the other hand are designed to operate all by themselves, thousands of kms away from home, even without support of USAF/USN. That's why they are equipped with their own Army, Air Force and Navy units. Such a requirement or capability does not exist within IN therefore a VSTOL-capable 5th gen strike fighter is unnecessary.

That said, sure India is planning to build an MC-type force, but any target designated by such a force can be easily taken out by IN's planes.

The sensor wise the F 35 is superior than all other 4.5 gen planes. I think it's superior compared to EFT, Rafale and Gripen NG.

As of now, sure because it's newer than all of them. But the thing with electronics is that they can upgraded anytime, on any plane. Rafale shares a similar kind of electronics architecture with F-35 and can be upgraded with similar or superior technologies. The program to do so is already underway. You'll see them on the F4 tranche.

other hand which Fifth gen fighters could pose a threat against IN. that's the J 20 only, in our domain we need to confront against those flankers and other Chinese jets. I sure F 35 is much better when dealing against such threats.

Against older 4th gen planes with huge radar, IR signatures like Su-30MKK, J-11A etc. it can hold it's own if it manages to see and shoot these planes before they get close. But the same job can be performed effectively by Rafale too, and the IAF is already getting Rafales, so why do you want to go and get a different plane now just because US pressurized you to do it?

Can you not see that US is pressurizing us to buy F-35C for it's own benefit? Such a decision is certainly not in IN's interests.

I always worry, what if our Rafale M do when it faces the J 20. I think the generation cap is important.

When J-20 will actually be in a position to face Rafale-M, it would be facing Rafales that can potentially achieve RCS lesser than 0.5sqm. Combine that with a GaN-based AESA radar and Meteor BVRAAM. It can hold it's own very well. Besides, IN would also be looking for a 5th gen naval fighter by then - possibly N-FGFA or N-AMCA. As I've already stated.

Also there is no chance of adding those R-M in our LHD's.

We don't need to.

IF the Indian Navy actually wanted VSTOL jets to operate from their LHDs, they would have already requested the F-35B. There would be no need for US to pressurize IN to take them!

Why are you trying to make the IN accept what it doesn't want? I would recommend that such strategic decisions are best made by the military, not the civilians or fanboys.

The F 35 can carry four AA missiles in it's internal bay. Radar guided or the EOTS guided. I sure the EOTS or the Radar can find the enemy aircraft first not the 4.5 Gen fighter or say Rafale M. If you have any sources to reject the above please provide..

The EOTS is primarily designed to assist guidance of smart bombs/LGBs against ground targets. It's air-to-air performance is minimal.

That said, there is nothing on the EOTS that Rafale does not have with it's OSF. Infact the OSF, due it's greatest emphasis on air combat, has greater lieu of technologies compared to EOTS. The OSF incorporates dual-wavelength QWIP-based IR/EO spectrum scanning and as per sources (given below) can have ranges of upto 130km for a fighter-sized target from the rear (80km from front).

Problem with EOTS is that it is a single-channel spectrum system which is basically geared toward tackling ground targets. This limits it's performance in air-to-air situations. For example if a target is not using afterburning (Rafale can supercruise anyway), EOTS is not likely to pick up such a target at any meaningful combat ranges.

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/

When speaking of actually killing the target, it is not just the fighter's sensors but the missile's seekers that matter. A fighter radar only sees & initiates the target lock-on and launches the missile. Once the missile gets close it's up to the missile's seeker to pick up the target.

So an F-35 carrying Meteor will actually have a similar BVR combat performance as a Rafale carrying the same missile. If by chance the F-35 is carrying AMRAAM, then Rafale with Meteor will actually have better chances of killing the target, thanks to Meteor.

I think four Air to air missile is better for counter air missions..!!

Only if those 4 AAMs are using AESA seekers like K-77M. Modern 4.5/5th gen jets have incredibly advanced countermeasure systems. Plus, in order to make full use missiles' capability, it serves if the launch aircraft has high aerodynamic performance - which the F-35 does not.

BVRAAMs can go faster intially and longer overall if the launch happens when the aircraft is flying fast, high.

Don't need to explain importance of maneuverability in WVR ranges.

Super cruise is the only area F 35 has disadvantage.

Not really.

You sure in Future we can see dog fights ..! see first shoot first RTB first is the theory ....I think

That theory assumes that while we sit in advanced 5th gen stealth fighters, the enemy will use 4th or 3rd gen planes.

When the enemy starts using planes with LO features, the ranges at which you can detect and shoot him greatly decreases. Consider J-20, FGFA or Rafale with Active cancellation. The F-35 will probably detect them at a distance of 30-40km. This is no longer even BVR range, and at this range the enemy will also be able to clearly see the F-35.

Thing is, radars & electronics grow a lot, lot faster than stealth shaping methods. The F-22 and F-35 are considered to be highly survivable due to the fact they cannot be seen by traditional slotted array/PESA/older AESA radars at meaningful BVR ranges.

But consider GaN-based AESA radars (Russian FGA-35, French RBE-2AA Upgrade), Digital AESA radars (Russian development), effectiveness of stealth is already severely reduced.

And consider that by 2025 approx., Russians would have an operational Photonic ROFAR radar that can scan in such an incredible range of frequencies from GHz to nm-length frequencies. At that point the whole 'stealth' drama, designed to defeat X-band frequencies, will be shattered.

As I said, electronics develop a lot faster than airframe-shaping.

There is no doubt that Rafale is superior.. My question is will the Rafale can beat any Fifth gen fighter.. lets say the J 20.

It would be able to hold it's own if given enough upgrades. But that's why we are investing in FGFA.

F 35 too carry some four A2A and six other air to ground weapons in non stealth config.

If you're going to carry external weapons anyway, it defeats the F-35's stealth aspect to a large extent.

Comparison with APG 81 please.

So far no one has talked of GaN on APG-81. An accurate comparison is impossible as accurate specs of the radars are not revealed.

Is the GaN based fighter Airborne radar available ..!! I think nations still on initial phase of works

Not yet, but it's in development. It will be available from F4 variant onward I think.

Huh ..Then I can easily say EOTS and DAS is the answer against the OSF and DDM NG.

It's not me who's trying to justify a purchase of F-35. :biggrin2:

As I've shown in link above, OSF is superior to EOTS. .

Plus IAF is already getting Rafales so IN can get them off the same production line at a cheaper cost than going in for a whole new type of fighter. It's going to be a logistical & economic nightmare if we go for F-35.

Thanks ...any video representation through You Tube is better..

You won't find it on YT. But if you're willing to read through it to understand the concept of Active cancellation, I have attached a text by one Richard Rutily (halloweene knows him) which explains the concept. You can read further online or ask here if you doubts.


I admit it requires a lot of processing power to realize these technologies, but Rafale has that.

aww... How ..anyone can't easily fall when they see the Senors and EOTS

the proposed plan ..!! No air to ground stand off missiles from Internal bay .. But some good glide bombs..

As I said, nothing Rafale cannot carry.

F-35 simply isn't worth it for India. If you think we're going to be investing in F-35, FGFA, MMRCA at the same time then forget it.

I heard the CUDA is a EOTS guided missile for long range interception without using the Radar. I sure the program did exists.. !

Forget what it's guided by...what kind of seeker does CUDA even have? It's a missile at a very early stage of development and it's ill-advised to bank on it while giving up promising stuff like Meteor or K-77M.

CUDA is only a proposed concept which might not even happen.

Carter noted the progress on "cooperation on jet engines, and aircraft carrier design and construction, as well as opportunities to collaborate on additional projects."

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/12/11/india-seeks-us-know-how-for-new-aircraft-carrier.html

As I said, US involvement will be there in areas related to EMALS. That includes whichever part of the ship that needs to be a certain way in order to incorporate EMALS. The system draws a lot of power so how the power transmission needs to be will be detailed by the American side.

They're not designing our carrier for us nor are they giving us a nuclear reactor to put on it. Too early to show you with links about who is doing what. Let's wait.

 

[Immanuel]

Well pipe dreams, at best. Let's just wait for the first 36 to be signed, looking at horrible delivery schedule of 7 years, the last of the 36 arrive in 2023. IN will in no way acquire the Rafale for its IAC-2 or Vishal class ships, they are not even in full scale design mode let alone begin of work. IAC-2 if ordered won't be ready before 2027, same goes for the Vishal and in such a case to order a 4.5 gen Rafale in 5.5 gen timelines is all but stupidity. IN will mostly buy the F-35 or AMCA or Naval PAKFA if the last 2 exist.

Rafale atbest will have upto 90 aircraft in IAF i.e 5 Sqds, 1 for each air command.

 

[SajeevJino]

First of all, we need to understand the requirement before we try to address the solution. Now, has the
Navy ever said that they want their LHDs to be operating VSTOL jets? Answer is no. What IN needs from these LHDs is an amphibious warfare capability that can deploy marine warfare units. And what IN wants flying from these LHDs are rotary-wing assets that can support this huge ground force. That includes the likes of S-70B, CH-148, Dhruv, and maybe V-22 and LCH/Sea Apache too.

Nope.. Navy didn't mentions about VTOL operations.. The requirement of birds are upto 35 Ton heli facility

Any such marine warfare is likely to happen within IOR, or Gulf of Aden which are completely within reach of our Navy.

agreed..

The Marine Corps of US on the other hand are designed to operate all by themselves, thousands of kms away from home, even without support of USAF/USN. That's why they are equipped with their own Army, Air Force and Navy units. Such a requirement or capability does not exist within IN therefore a VSTOL-capable 5th gen strike fighter is unnecessary.

.... Then the argument is like we don't even want a aircraft carrier too ..!!

That said, sure India is planning to build an MC-type force, but any target designated by such a force can be easily taken out by IN's planes.

Please explain the MC term..never heard ..Thanks in advance

As of now, sure because it's newer than all of them. But the thing with electronics is that they can upgraded anytime, on any plane. Rafale shares a similar kind of electronics architecture with F-35 and can be upgraded with similar or superior technologies. The program to do so is already underway. You'll see them on the F4 tranche.

Yes both have similar capability .. Still I feel the F 35 is better in Sensor and Optics systems

Against older 4th gen planes with huge radar, IR signatures like Su-30MKK, J-11A etc. it can hold it's own if it manages to see and shoot these planes before they get close. But the same job can be performed effectively by Rafale too, and the IAF is already getting Rafales, so why do you want to go and get a different plane now just because US pressurized you to do it?

What I think was let the IAF keep the Rafale's and Navy with F 35.. I hardly finds IN and IAF won't cooperate in terms of maintenance and weapon storage

Can you not see that US is pressurizing us to buy F-35C for it's own benefit? Such a decision is certainly not in IN's interests.

Yes ..Just a business..!!

When J-20 will actually be in a position to face Rafale-M, it would be facing Rafales that can potentially achieve RCS lesser than 0.5sqm. Combine that with a GaN-based AESA radar and Meteor BVRAAM. It can hold it's own very well.

you sure about the J 20's RCS figure .. Also If RBE 2 capable to detect the J 20 in long range then The Rafale Meteor combo wins.. My question is will the RBE detects the J 20

Besides, IN would also be looking for a 5th gen naval fighter by then - possibly N-FGFA or N-AMCA. As I've already stated.

Lets say this comes in later 2040 or so .. Otherwise IN goes F 35 onleee ..

IF the Indian Navy actually wanted VSTOL jets to operate from their LHDs, they would have already requested the F-35B. There would be no need for US to pressurize IN to take them!

Then we have to wait .. till the LHD announcement .. I think IN better thinks about operating six fixed wings in each LHD gives an upper edge ..

Why are you trying to make the IN accept what it doesn't want? I would recommend that such strategic decisions are best made by the military, not the civilians or fanboys.

aww.. lets us to tell something ...!!

The EOTS is primarily designed to assist guidance of smart bombs/LGBs against ground targets. It's air-to-air performance is minimal.

The EOTS is an Electro optics guidance system.. supports all kind of IR guided and Laser guided munitions and missiles.

I believe the CUDA is also a IR guided missile works with EOTS.. hence long range IR guided interception with out the use of Radar ... I maybe wrong too

That said, there is nothing on the EOTS that Rafale does not have with it's OSF. Infact the OSF, due it's greatest emphasis on air combat, has greater lieu of technologies compared to EOTS. The OSF incorporates dual-wavelength QWIP-based IR/EO spectrum scanning and as per sources (given below) can have ranges of upto 130km for a fighter-sized target from the rear (80km from front).

Problem with EOTS is that it is a single-channel spectrum system which is basically geared toward tackling ground targets. This limits it's performance in air-to-air situations. For example if a target is not using afterburning (Rafale can supercruise anyway), EOTS is not likely to pick up such a target at any meaningful combat ranges.

https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/airborne-irst-properties-and-performance/

Thanks for the good link ..let me read that completely
.

When speaking of actually killing the target, it is not just the fighter's sensors but the missile's seekers that matter. A fighter radar only sees & initiates the target lock-on and launches the missile. Once the missile gets close it's up to the missile's seeker to pick up the target.

Yes that's the game ..Guidance from the Fighter and the active seeker in the missile need to best for interception ..!!

So an F-35 carrying Meteor will actually have a similar BVR combat performance as a Rafale carrying the same missile. If by chance the F-35 is carrying AMRAAM, then Rafale with Meteor will actually have better chances of killing the target, thanks to Meteor.

did Rafale has any plans for dual way Meteor data link like EFT and Gripen NG.. what about F 35 it comes with dual data link for Meteor.

Only if those 4 AAMs are using AESA seekers like K-77M. Modern 4.5/5th gen jets have incredibly advanced countermeasure systems. Plus, in order to make full use missiles' capability, it serves if the launch aircraft has high aerodynamic performance - which the F-35 does not.

Not now ... The Russians is first who working on AESA based seeker in air to air missile.. and the program also yet to start.!

I believe in western standards, since they were highly reliable than the Russian Air to air missiles

BVRAAMs can go faster intially and longer overall if the launch happens when the aircraft is flying fast, high.

BVR key for Long range interception mostly suits for CAP and Offensive air

Don't need to explain importance of maneuverability in WVR ranges.

I hope in future we rarely see those WVR combats

That theory assumes that while we sit in advanced 5th gen stealth fighters, the enemy will use 4th or 3rd gen planes.

When the enemy starts using planes with LO features, the ranges at which you can detect and shoot him greatly decreases. Consider J-20, FGFA or Rafale with Active cancellation. The F-35 will probably detect them at a distance of 30-40km. This is no longer even BVR range, and at this range the enemy will also be able to clearly see the F-35.

That's why I say ..use your EOTS or OSF .. it has better range and guide IR guided missile for nearly 50 kilometers..

I agree ..If anyone picked the F 35 in his radar ..then it's a bad day for F 35

Thing is, radars & electronics grow a lot, lot faster than stealth shaping methods. The F-22 and F-35 are considered to be highly survivable due to the fact they cannot be seen by traditional slotted array/PESA/older AESA radars at meaningful BVR ranges.

Exactly ..!!

But consider GaN-based AESA radars (Russian FGA-35, French RBE-2AA Upgrade), Digital AESA radars (Russian development), effectiveness of stealth is already severely reduced.

My question is they are in theory ..yet to be implemented are simulated.

And consider that by 2025 approx., Russians would have an operational Photonic ROFAR radar that can scan in such an incredible range of frequencies from GHz to nm-length frequencies. At that point the whole 'stealth' drama, designed to defeat X-band frequencies, will be shattered.

As I said, electronics develop a lot faster than airframe-shaping.

You believe the Russian's too much achievements in Avionics .. they were smarter in PR play ..in action they were zero...!

Otherwise the same drama like S 400's 400km engagement Range.

It would be able to hold it's own if given enough upgrades. But that's why we are investing in FGFA.

Are we .. I assumes the FGFA and the PAK FA program is in ice box ..!!

If you're going to carry external weapons anyway, it defeats the F-35's stealth aspect to a large extent.

I know that ..and I already said the same .. External mounts means F 35 is almost identical to Rafale ..Okay Rafale will perform more than F 35

So far no one has talked of GaN on APG-81. An accurate comparison is impossible as accurate specs of the radars are not revealed.

Agreed.. I think there is many issues to miniaturize the GaN based T/R modules. that's why still no one have achieved a better GaN based Radar of course Air borne

Not yet, but it's in development. It will be available from F4 variant onward I think.

I don't think so ..!! or we have to wait .. Any specs of Tranche 4

Plus IAF is already getting Rafales so IN can get them off the same production line at a cheaper cost than going in for a whole new type of fighter. It's going to be a logistical & economic nightmare if we go for F-35.

Only Cheaper production line ... IN and IAF won't share their logistics

You won't find it on YT. But if you're willing to read through it to understand the concept of Active cancellation, I have attached a text by one Richard Rutily (halloweene knows him) which explains the concept. You can read further online or ask here if you doubts.

Saw the txt document .. let me read that ...!!

F-35 simply isn't worth it for India. If you think we're going to be investing in F-35, FGFA, MMRCA at the same time then forget it.

Yeah .. seems little sense ..!! but all are priority I think

Forget what it's guided by...what kind of seeker does CUDA even have? It's a missile at a very early stage of development and it's ill-advised to bank on it while giving up promising stuff like Meteor or K-77M.

CUDA is only a proposed concept which might not even happen.

IR guided I think ...integrated with EOTS

.

As I said, US involvement will be there in areas related to EMALS. That includes whichever part of the ship that needs to be a certain way in order to incorporate EMALS. The system draws a lot of power so how the power transmission needs to be will be detailed by the American side.

They're not designing our carrier for us nor are they giving us a nuclear reactor to put on it. Too early to show you with links about who is doing what. Let's wait.

Yeah.. the time may tells more ..!!

 

[warrior monk]

I don't have the specifics, I wouldn't know if they chose to implement the offsets policy for one deal at a time or not. However, common sense dictates that DPP applies to all purchases done under the MoD, so it should apply to all eventually.

Whatever little have been released of the DPP-2016 the L1 bidder system seems to have been gone or truncated , offsets will now only be mandatory for 2000 cr limit increased from 300 cr limit which inflated the prices.

The yanks are indeed applying pressure on IN/MoD to accept the F-35C and the E-2D Hawkeye as a package along with EMALS. But IN isn't in for the idea - they are ok with E-2D but they likely think that an investment in JSF is a waste of money. They are more interested in the Rafale-M, and with upgrades including technologies like Active Cancellation etc., the Rafale can easily fulfill all IN's needs well into the future.

If and when they want to acquire a 5th gen aircraft, they'll want to go for swingroles like N-FGFA or N-AMCA...but F-35 which is essentially a strike aircraft isn't IN's idea of an air-wing for it's flagship carrier-class.

F-35C is a good aircraft with its deficiencies but I think you are correct IN may be unwilling to accept it especially without signing CISMOA which we won't so we won't have had access to the JTRS library waveforms and software especially Link 16 and SINCGARS and the newly built MADL. Though the E-2D Hawk eye would be a nice addition for our carrier based CAP fighters.

 

[Gessler]

.... Then the argument is like we don't even want a aircraft carrier too ..!!

No it's not like that. The point that I was trying to make is that even when India developed a Marine corps-type force, their operations are likely to be areas which can be reached by any IN or IAF jet. They do not need a specialized aircraft just for that.

If our Marines were going to fight a war somewhere in Latin America independent of the IN's airpower, then it makes sense to put F-35Bs on LHDs and send them with the Marines.

Please explain the MC term..never heard ..Thanks in advance

MC = Marine Corps

Yes both have similar capability .. Still I feel the F 35 is better in Sensor and Optics systems

Both can develop along the same lines. I cannot vouch for small advantages because I did not personally inspect them. But such small advantages are not worth justifying an F-35 purchase.

Think about it, if a so-called "5th gen" plane that costs $116 million (not including engine, weapons; total could be closer to $170mn) at present date, gives only marginal difference in electronics capability compared to a 4.5 gen plane costing $81 million (for India), then that 5th gen plane is simply not worth the money.

https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

you sure about the J 20's RCS figure .. Also If RBE 2 capable to detect the J 20 in long range then The Rafale Meteor combo wins.. My question is will the RBE detects the J 20

J-20's RCS is going to be bigger than F-22 or F-35. It's not very maneuverable either, weighs too much, and again no supercruise capability in sight. That means Rafale will have lesser trouble handling J-20 than F-35 or F-22.

No one knows for sure what J-20's radar is like. But it isn't likely to be very good, although it will be big.

A little bit of trivia : at a time when the Chinese latest radar on the J-10 could track 12 targets, Rafale's PESA radar at the time could track 40!

The EOTS is an Electro optics guidance system.. supports all kind of IR guided and Laser guided munitions and missiles.

As far as air-to-air capabilities go, the features you listed above are common to any IRST system in the world. Nothing unique to EOTS. A visual difference is that while most fighter-based IRSTs today are positioned beside the cockpit, focusing on air-combat, the EOTS sits under the nose focusing on ground targets.

But that's not a problem because F-35 is essentially a strike aircraft meant to attack ground targets inside airspace that has already been cleared & secured by friendly air-superiority aircraft. So in essence if IN takes F-35C, then in a real war it will always have to depend on IAF's FGFAs to provide air cover.

Here, have it from USAF Chief of Air Combat Command, Gen. Mike Hostage ;

" “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times. "

http://theaviationist.com/2014/02/04/f-35-needs-f-22-acc-says/

As you can see, a strike plane like F-35 will not survive on it's own against enemy A2A fighters. Rafale can. If you purchase the F-35, it creates a dangerous dependency on IAF airpower whenever IN wants to carry out an operation. At this point more pots start boiling - how well can a US plane like F-35 operable alongside a Russian platform like FGFA? Changing up datalinks is not the only problem - the F35 will never be able to log as many sorties as FGFA can - interoperability will take a hit, each plane suffering because of the other's deficiencies. In the meantime, FGFA itself can bomb more targets than F35 ever will!

I believe the CUDA is also a IR guided missile works with EOTS.. hence long range IR guided interception with out the use of Radar ... I maybe wrong too

Using IR-guided missiles based on targeting info given by onboard IRST is nothing new.

Su-30MKI, Su-35, Rafale, EFT, FGFA, J-10B, J-11 all planes can do that. Even Tejas can if it gets an IRST in Mk.2 program.

About the missiles, usually IR-guidance and BVR ranges do not sail in the same boat. IR has some limitations due to weather conditions, cloud cover, background ambient heat etc. At present, Rafale's OSF and Eurofighter's PIRATE systems are thought to be best fighter-based IRSTs around. As far as air-combat goes, they can do a far better job than EOTS.

did Rafale has any plans for dual way Meteor data link like EFT and Gripen NG.. what about F 35 it comes with dual data link for Meteor.

I'm not aware of recent Meteor developments w.r.t Rafale integration. Will let you know if I come across something.

Not now ... The Russians is first who working on AESA based seeker in air to air missile.. and the program also yet to start.!

Oh development started long time ago, I expect to see a test firing within 1-2 years time - they even displayed a realized seeker model at MAKS.

An AESA seeker head with 64 GaN-based T/R modules! Almost impossible if jam or spoof this missile with present countermeasure technologies!

FGFA is going to get them all - good for Indian forces.

...not just Russians but Japanese also developing AESA-seeker BVR missile called AAM-4B. It's a new
version of existing missile called AAM-4 -

Before you question Japan's knowledge of AESA tech, know this : the first fighter-based AESA radar was developed in Japan by Mitsubishi Electric. It's the J/APG-1 on the F-2 fighter.

I hope in future we rarely see those WVR combats

Unfortunately that's like trying to wish your enemies away. :biggrin2:

That's why I say ..use your EOTS or OSF .. it has better range and guide IR guided missile for nearly 50 kilometers..

That depends on target's infrared signature. Which also keeps changing. For example, Rafale has one of the lowest IR signatures out there thanks to the M88-2 engines that come with dual cooling channels. I don't have the links right now but maybe you can find them online.

However, even when it comes to passive targeting capabilities, Rafale is again on par or superior to F-35 due to SPECTRA's passive detection capabilities. I am attaching a doc about the same by the same guy who authored the Wordpress link I gave you last time;

Passive TARGETING capabilities are also highly developed on the Rafale thanks to interferometry and highly capable IRST - and above all, SPECTRA's ability to combine all these sensors to provide accurate location data of targets based on their electronic/heat emissions.

My question is they are in theory ..yet to be implemented are simulated.

They are not in 'theory'. They have already been developed - a little Google search will reveal things to you.

Agree about the Digital AESA that Russians are building though. That's still in early stages of development.

You believe the Russian's too much achievements in Avionics .. they were smarter in PR play ..in action they were zero...!

Lol...have you heard or seen the Cold War space race? The Russians were responsible for a whole lot of scientific and military achievements mankind has ever seen. Hell, the math needed to build the F-117 NIghthawk was the work of Russian scientists!

You are greatly underestimating the Ruskies. Their biggest problem was lack of funds.

Otherwise the same drama like S 400's 400km engagement Range.

Why do you think it is a drama?

The 40N6 missile round that's supposed to be used by S400 launchers has a stated range of approx. 400 km, altitude of around 190km and a maximum speed of Mach 12.

Just because they didn't show it doesn't mean they are incapable of doing it. You are talking about the people who introduced humans to space travel!

Are we .. I assumes the FGFA and the PAK FA program is in ice box ..!!

Anyone who said FGFA is/going to be cancelled is an idiot who has no idea about aircraft in the first place. Do not believe such bogus. This would be the 100th time they said IAF was going to cancel this, cancel that!

I don't think so ..!! or we have to wait .. Any specs of Tranche 4

I believe they are accessible on the public domain without much effort. Try Googling!

Only Cheaper production line ... IN and IAF won't share their logistics

True & wrong. IAF's Rafale and IN's Rafale-M will be produced on the same production line, all their related tools, maintenance or simulator equipment will also be produced together. That saves a lot of money & time.

However they will still have their own service centers where needed because they don't always operate in the same theaters. For examples, places like Arakkonam IN base could have a Rafale center that is geared to maintaining Rafale-M version while Gwalior AFB will have a center for Air Force version Rafales.

But the tools needed for these centers can be produced at the same line, by the same people, at the same time.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale for the In isn't happening, people need to stop making such BS speculations. IN has enough aircraft in terms of the Mig-29K to put on board the INS Vikramaditya and the IAC-1 INS Vikrant. IAC-2 isn't approved yet, let alone designed or ready for construction, by all optimistic timelines IAC-2 won't come before 2025 and INS Vishal won't be ready by then either and at that point it is all but stupidity to order a 4.5 gen aircraft.