Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

First tests of improved CARAA RBE2 (multiplexing antenna) done successfully.

 

[Ved]

First tests of improved CARAA RBE2 (multiplexing antenna) done successfully.

Whats CARAA RBE2? Is it some upgrade on RBE2? What capabilities does it sport?

 

[sorcerer]

India to Consider French Fighter Jets for Navy’s Newest Aircraft Carrier

France’s Dassault Aviation will brief Indian Navy officials on the naval version of the Rafale aircraft this week.


Representatives of French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation are slated to meet with senior officials of the Indian Navy to pitch the naval version of the Dassault Rafale twin-engine, fourth generation multirole fighter this week, according to local media reports.


The briefing is scheduled for January 29.

Sources within India’s Defense Ministry said that New Delhi has asked four countries (France, the United States, the United Kingdom, and Russia) for proposals for the design of the country’s first 65,000-ton supercarrier, the INS Vishal, the second ship of the Vikrant-class. The INS Vishal will allegedly feature significant design changes from the lead vessel, the INS Vikrant, including possible nuclear propulsion and Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) and Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch Systems (EMALS). The INS Vikrant, by comparison,will feature a Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) configuration.


While the INS Vikrant will carry MIG 29K fighter aircraft, the Indian Navy is still undecided whether it will stick with the Russian-made aircraft for the INS Vishal, according to sources. The type of aircraft stationed aboard the new supercarrier will heavily influence the new vessel’s design and is thus of critical importance. The Indian Navy is interested in purchasing up to 54 new aircraft.

It is unclear whether the Rafale fighter jet has been shortlisted. Also, France’s competitors are unlikely to give up without putting up a fight.


A spokeswoman of MIG Russian Aircraft Corporation told reporters last week that the company was ready to supply MIG 29K multi-role fighter aircraft for the INS Vishal: “”MiG and India’s Ministry of Defense are long-term partners. We are linked by many years of successful cooperation. We would certainly be ready to supply fighter jets for the new aircraft carrier.”

French President Francois Hollande landed in India yesterday for a three-day state visit, in which he wants to solidify the Indo-French strategic partnership. Among other things, Hollande hopes to finalize the long-awaited $9 billion sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (See: “What’s on François Hollande’s Agenda in India?”).

As I reported previously (See: “Confirmed: India to Buy Only 36 Rafale Fighter Jets”):

Initially, the MMRCA [medium multi-role combat aircraft] project envisioned that India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would build 108 out of a 126 total Rafale jets locally, with the first batch of 18 fighter jets directly delivered from France in flyaway condition.

However, New Delhi unexpectedly announced in April of this year that it would only purchase 36 French-made Rafale fighters instead of the original 126.(…)

The price tag for the 36 off-the-shelf Rafale will substantially be cheaper since France is no longer obligated to build the planes in India. (…)

However, the current contract under negotiation includes a offset clause which stipulated that France will have to invest 50 percent of the contract value as offsets in India.

The offset clause is one of the politically most important features of the contract for Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. “The idea we have in mind is the one of an intergovernmental agreement between the two countries in order to allow the firms involved to go all the way,” Hollande recently told journalists. A memorandum to that effect, along with 13 other agreements, was signed today, according to Indian media reports. ”There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days, but the memorandum has been signed,” Hollande announced.


http://thediplomat.com/2016/01/indi...ghter-jets-for-navys-newest-aircraft-carrier/

 

[halloweene]

Whats CARAA RBE2? Is it some upgrade on RBE2? What capabilities does it sport?

Basically, physically separate the antenna in several "sub antennas" and parallel computers to compute signals from each antenna part. Aka a firt step toward conformal antennas.

 

[Immanuel]

http://www.rediff.com/news/special/revealed-price-is-holding-up-the-rafale-deal/20160126.htm

^According to the rumors

French Offer:

$11 Billion /w 30% offset for 36 fighters.

$7.7 Billion for 36 fighters, real cost.

~$214 Million per fighter.


Indian Offer:

$7 Billion /w 30% offset for 36 fighters.

$4.9 Billion for 36 fighters, real cost.

~$136 Million per fighter.

Crossing posting from BR

This figure of the French quoting 11 billion doesn't include spares....

 

[Gessler]

^According to the rumors

Well, according to the rumors EF Typhoon was the frontrunner in MMRCA and EJ-200 was the engine for Tejas Mk-2.

 

[Immanuel]

Nithin Gokhle is a reliable source.

 

[satishbharatiya]

My thoughts

The decision of the Indian government to buy 36 Rafales will cost between $7 billion to $11 billion. Estimating the service life of rafale to be 20 years and estimating he cost of maintenance to be 3 times the cost of acquisition, lets assume the cost of total acquisition and maintenance to be $35 Billion. This aquisition will wipe out half the fleet of the Tejas, like the acquisition of F-22 has decreased the numbers of fighter planes in the USAF. Rafale has a twin engined fighter will cost more for a hour of flight, so the running costs for the rafale will also be high.This will affect pilot training as funds are fungible and IAF will cut the cost on training and acquisition of other assets. Rafale will also spend more time in maintenance due to twin engines.Funds needed for endogenous fighter will aslo get affected. Rafale overall will be verybad for the IAF.

 

[Harinath]

I think Rafale acquisition is a dumb idea. We must have gone MRCA with Gripen with full TOT and as soon as we got TOT we must have integrated that technologies into out Tejas MK1, 2, and even in AMCA that way we would be able to have common spares in planes which would affect positively for our air force in maintenance and cost way. Moreover I am not confident that Rafale acquisition will happen after looking at Modi style of working.

 

[guru-dutt]

Rafle deal is on and it might get OK signal at 8 billion but i guess since USA is ready we should from day one should have taken land based version of F/A 18 Advanced super hornet as there is nothing owt there as potent and fighting fit as a advanced super hornet 6 squads of advanced super hornets and two squads of its growler series would make chinkies and porkies cream there pants forget challenging india whats more its naval version has prooved its self beyond any doughts in almost every theater and would make a great complement for INS Vishal

 

[Harinath]

Rafle deal is on and it might get OK signal at 8 billion but i guess since USA is ready we should from day one should have taken land based version of F/A 18 Advanced super hornet as there is nothing owt there as potent and fighting fit as a advanced super hornet 6 squads of advanced super hornets and two squads of its growler series would make chinkies and porkies cream there pants forget challenging india whats more its naval version has prooved its self beyond any doughts in almost every theater and would make a great complement for INS Vishal

I think doing such serious business with US is unsafe, if we go to war and US does not like that, it may stop supply of spares at that time. They are not ready do any serious TOT. Moreover F/A 18 is very old platform, would it be as good as recently developed planes?.

 

[guru-dutt]

I think doing such serious business with US is unsafe, if we go to war and US does not like that, it may stop supply of spares at that time. They are not ready do any serious TOT. Moreover F/A 18 is very old platform, would it be as good as recently developed planes?.

well US wants to retain control of asia pacific and the olny way it can do is to do what it was always reluctant and that was giving india its due role in this theater or it knows its china all the way hence it wont do any thing stupid this time as it dose not have plan B,C or XYZ as for old platform well thats just another rumour by IAF and arms lobby there is no machine as good and leathel as F18 right now ... in short rafale is sexy while hornet is Fit & leathel

 

[punjab47]

Engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri by 10%. let's blow whole budget on it.

 

[Harinath]

well US wants to retain control of asia pacific and the olny way it can do is to do what it was always reluctant and that was giving india its due role in this theater or it knows its china all the way hence it wont do any thing stupid this time as it dose not have plan B,C or XYZ as for old platform well thats just another rumour by IAF and arms lobby there is no machine as good and leathel as F18 right now ... in short rafale is sexy while hornet is Fit & leathel

Sexy, let others take it, We want to be fit and lethal, after all sexiy will fall for fit and lethal
What I mean to say is we need fit and lethal but homemade, that is awesome

36 Rafael at whooping 10 billions dont know what impact it has on IAF but what impact would that 10 billions would have in next 10 years if spent on R&D?

 

[Harinath]

Engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri by 10%. let's blow whole budget on it.

do you mean 10% worse by power?

 

[punjab47]

do you mean 10% worse by power?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

Yes, 50/75 Vs 55/81kn

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

My thoughts

The decision of the Indian government to buy 36 Rafales will cost between $7 billion to $11 billion. Estimating the service life of rafale to be 20 years and estimating he cost of maintenance to be 3 times the cost of acquisition, lets assume the cost of total acquisition and maintenance to be $35 Billion. This aquisition will wipe out half the fleet of the Tejas, like the acquisition of F-22 has decreased the numbers of fighter planes in the USAF. Rafale has a twin engined fighter will cost more for a hour of flight, so the running costs for the rafale will also be high.This will affect pilot training as funds are fungible and IAF will cut the cost on training and acquisition of other assets. Rafale will also spend more time in maintenance due to twin engines.Funds needed for endogenous fighter will aslo get affected. Rafale overall will be verybad for the IAF.

All your assumptions are incorrect and therefore the inferences which you have drawn from those assumptions are even more wrong.

Firstly, it's not just planes that we are buying, it has been repeatedly mentioned, that there is some sort of a package deal whereby they will also provide armaments (MBDA, MICA, google it), they will also provide assembly line and the whole maintenance kit, they will provide training to people who will do the maintenance, they will provide some ToT, plus there are some geostrategic concessions that France will make. You should account all of that when you are considering what we are getting, especially the concessions.

Secondly, Tejas already has 240 orders as per Wikipedia. I don't see how 36 planes will wipe out 240 orders that have already been placed and paid for? Don't cook up your own facts. Maintenance of French fighters has also been exponentially less than Russian parts. Not to mention, they have provided proper kits so that we could maintain Mirage 2000 very well, unlike Russia which deliberately blocked spares supply.

Thirdly, not all training happens on Rafales, there are trainer jets, each pilot goes through 3 types of jet trainers, plus there are simulators. The twin engine config might cost more but it also delivers more on the battle field, it will allow us to strike high value targets deep inside enemy territory and the cost of operation is minimal compared to the billions of $ worth of damage that it will cause in war. Not to mention, our economy will be ~6 Trillion in 10 years. We can afford this. Don't apply your street jugad math to military financial matters. 2 engines are costly than one engine, really? that's your logic?

This 36 Rafale deal is the best possible compromise between price, lethality and our dreams of indigenous production. This is a stop gap solution which will give us some breathing time to get our indigenous project back on their legs. By the time the last Rafale is inducted, our Tejas and AMCa will have reached FOC status.

 

[guru-dutt]

Sexy, let others take it, We want to be fit and lethal, after all sexiy will fall for fit and lethal
What I mean to say is we need fit and lethal but homemade, that is awesome

36 Rafael at whooping 10 billions dont know what impact it has on IAF but what impact would that 10 billions would have in next 10 years if spent on R&D?

well that is what MP & NaMo have said to IAF and MOD as frenchies dont want to give any relevent technology though if they play fair there is at least 126 requirement for air force and 54 for navy but looks like frenchies have got way to greedy after egypt and qutar gave order for rafales the plan sold by Namo to air force was 36 french built and at least 126 made in india under MII programme but frenchies now want eiother the ammount they asked or all rafales made in france only rest keep speculationg looks like this deal just might go the MRCA deal way and we just might go for Mig35 with new engines and a Israeli AESA & weapons + all the latest russian as if we do that russians just might sweeten the deal for PAKFA & FGFA & S400

 

[Bornubus]

Rafale (if we are buying with AESA) armed with Ramjet BVR Meteor will outclass every 4++ aircraft in Asia and 36 alone would reduced the gap between PLAF and IAF to a great extent.36 Rafale is enough for small skirmish in Arunanchal.

But Russian would surely lean towards Pakis and if PAK FA deal wouldn't materialise then we can kiss goodbye to S 400 and Russians ends up giving SU - 35 to Pak, which every paki pray with their 5 time Namaz.

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale (if we are buying with AESA) armed with Ramjet BVR Meteor will outclass every 4++ aircraft in Asia and 36 alone would reduced the gap between PLAF and IAF to a great extent.36 Rafale is enough for small skirmish in Arunanchal.

But Russian would surely lean towards Pakis and if PAK FA deal wouldn't materialise then we can kiss goodbye to S 400 and Russians ends up giving SU - 35 to Pak, which every paki pray with their 5 time Namaz.

Rafale's bill alone is sending ripples everywhere, let's not add Meteor to it, Meteor per unit will cost upwards of over 2-3 million euros. Rafale if it actually is acquired will be armed with MICA-RF/IR ( we have enough stock) for now and then integrated with Astra MK-2 as this is a requirement. Meteor won't come in the Indian context.

S-400 deal will go through, so will PAKFA. 36 Rafale won't get you jack against China, even in the French AF Rafale availability is around 60%, so we can expect the same in India i.e only around 22 aircraft will be available at given time, good enough for some deep strikes but Tibet is no cake walk, the area is littered with low level SAMs, VSHORADS, AA guns etc.

Instead of wasting 11 billion on this deal, just buy another 3-4 Sqds of Super MKI, order the rest as LCA MK-1As.