Know Your 'Rafale'

guru-dutt

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Rafale (if we are buying with AESA) armed with Ramjet BVR Meteor will outclass every 4++ aircraft in Asia and 36 alone would reduced the gap between PLAF and IAF to a great extent.36 Rafale is enough for small skirmish in Arunanchal.

But Russian would surely lean towards Pakis and if PAK FA deal wouldn't materialise then we can kiss goodbye to S 400 and Russians ends up giving SU - 35 to Pak, which every paki pray with their 5 time Namaz.
Thing is IAF shot itself in the foot by going for 40 million $$s uprade per plane on M2K and dassault knows IAF wants rafale at any cost hence they are asking more than twice the price and thats not gonna happen no matter how much IAF cries as no matter how good is rafale its still a 4.5+ gen fighter jet and for that price we can have 5 Mig35s or 3 FA-18EF tell me is rafle still a good deal ... looks more like a dead deal as french presisdednt himself had said
 

Bornubus

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Rafale's bill alone is sending ripples everywhere, let's not add Meteor to it, Meteor per unit will cost upwards of over 2-3 million euros. Rafale if it actually is acquired will be armed with MICA-RF/IR ( we have enough stock) for now and then integrated with Astra MK-2 as this is a requirement. Meteor won't come in the Indian context.

S-400 deal will go through, so will PAKFA. 36 Rafale won't get you jack against China, even in the French AF Rafale availability is around 60%, so we can expect the same in India i.e only around 22 aircraft will be available at given time, good enough for some deep strikes but Tibet is no cake walk, the area is littered with low level SAMs, VSHORADS, AA guns etc.

Instead of wasting 11 billion on this deal, just buy another 3-4 Sqds of Super MKI, order the rest as LCA MK-1As.
What's is the point of buy 36 Rafale if it's not coming it with best weapon Package, a toothless $10 ~ billion tiger !

Rafale is coming, there is no going back now, it would be better if IAF gets the best package on par with France, we already leg behind in BVR arena Meteor can't be compared with anything in service with PLAF although their SD 10A is said to have a range 70 - 100 km.Tell us why Meteor is is unfit for Indian context ?

As for PAK FA and S 400 is only a pipe dream as of now even if the deal materialise the 1st PAK FA won't be inducted before 2022 and S 400 before 2020.
 
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Bornubus

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Thing is IAF shot itself in the foot by going for 40 million $$s uprade per plane on M2K and dassault knows IAF wants rafale at any cost hence they are asking more than twice the price and thats not gonna happen no matter how much IAF cries as no matter how good is rafale its still a 4.5+ gen fighter jet and for that price we can have 5 Mig35s or 3 FA-18EF tell me is rafle still a good deal ... looks more like a dead deal as french presisdednt himself had said
Mig 35 with AESA would've been a better alternative than a Rafale,i think govt selected Rafale just to give a signal to Russians and diversify and reduce the dependence on Russians.

Also this Rafale deal will successfully ends the Paki dream of buying French avionics.
 

Bahamut

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Mig 35 with AESA would've been a better alternative than a Rafale,i think govt selected Rafale just to give a signal to Russians and diversify and reduce the dependence on Russians.

Also this Rafale deal will successfully ends the Paki dream of buying French avionics.
F 16 would have been a good choice also with full TOT, but IAF wanted the best jet not the most effective jet .IAF should know that nation pocket are not that deep.Like in the cost of Mirage upgrade we can get new jet like gripen .The budget must better manage in the MOD.
 

Bornubus

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F 16 would have been a good choice also with full TOT, but IAF wanted the best jet not the most effective jet .IAF should know that nation pocket are not that deep.Like in the cost of Mirage upgrade we can get new jet like gripen .The budget must better manage in the MOD.
I've heard some where that the reason for not selecting F 16 being a 3 decade old air craft with a limited upgrade capability in future compared with MMRCA (Rafale) will serve in IAF for 2040 or beyond.

Secondly Pak already operating F 16 would know all about it.If we had selected Mig 35, we would've have AESA and 50 aircraft ready by 2020 including S 400.
 

aliyah

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there are 1000 things in any deal some are disclosed in public some are not......e.g Russian attached s400 with fgfa. so stop thinking that govt is idiot n ur the only smartest person in country
 

Harinath

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I dont understand why is so serious about getting Rafael, does't IAF have confidence in our MKI, what is the actual edge of Rafael on MKI? :confused1:

Purchasing that plane would just be lots and lots of money..... Why not more MKIs or put more money on R&D or buy some key technologies from other countries like complete TOT of engine or any other tech which we dont have.

In my opinion we should go for Sweden's offer for Make In India Gripen with full control. We can moreover make a joint development of Gripen stealth with sweden which would be another great Idea, with that dont know when AMCA will be flying but Stealth Gripen would be ready flying by the time we even make AMCA prototype looking at the trend of our indigenous weapons making program.

This way we will be able to know building a complete 4th or 4+ gen plane and that knowledege can be used in making MK2 and AMCA which will push the program ahead for years.
 

Rushil51

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Gessler

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@Gessler Just curious about your opinion, should we go ahead with this with deal costing $250million a piece?
First of all, what price are we talking about? Flyaway cost of each plane which is like $81 million? (AdlA cost)

Or the combined price of licensing contracts, weapons, spares, training, etc.? And don't forget offsets clause which ensures that a percentage of the contract value is re-invested back into the Indian defence industry.

Any data regarding the exact price of the IAF Rafale deal (per unit flyaway cost or otherwise) at this point is just vivid media speculations. The price has not been officially revealed yet, it will be in a couple weeks' time.

The IGA has already been signed which means negotiations are going to India's satisfaction. Please wait & see.

Rafale is well worth it - I know it, IAF knows it, MoD knows it, and soon you will also. In case you did not already.
 

Bahamut

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I've heard some where that the reason for not selecting F 16 being a 3 decade old air craft with a limited upgrade capability in future compared with MMRCA (Rafale) will serve in IAF for 2040 or beyond.

Secondly Pak already operating F 16 would know all about it.If we had selected Mig 35, we would've have AESA and 50 aircraft ready by 2020 including S 400.
If we buy F 16 then no F 16 for Pak ,plus the jet offered India had IRST ,newer AESA ,plus changes in engine.It is a different plane.Even pak has C 130 but we have C 130J and they are miles apart. F 16 is easier to maintain and if its full TOT and full localized production ( both being offered ) then we get a good deal over all.
Cancel the M2K and Mig 29 upgrade and take Mig 35 for them with full ToT and localized production .Plus we can stop sale of RD 93 for Junk fighter ,leaving pak to use the Chinese engine.
With all the ToT means more tech for AMCA .There should a longer insight in the deal.It should be more then buying the best jet at all cost.
 

Rushil51

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First of all, what price are we talking about? Flyaway cost of each plane which is like $81 million? (AdlA cost)

Or the combined price of licensing contracts, weapons, spares, training, etc.? And don't forget offsets clause which ensures that a percentage of the contract value is re-invested back into the Indian defence industry.

Any data regarding the exact price of the IAF Rafale deal (per unit flyaway cost or otherwise) at this point is just vivid media speculations. The price has not been officially revealed yet, it will be in a couple weeks' time.

The IGA has already been signed which means negotiations are going to India's satisfaction. Please wait & see.

Rafale is well worth it - I know it, IAF knows it, MoD knows it, and soon you will also. In case you did not already.

Yes I truly believe in Rafale capabilities and reading your previous posts on this thread as only strengthened my confidence in Rafale. But can I ask you how do you know so much about the aircrafts? Did you read some book?
 

Gessler

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Yes I truly believe in Rafale capabilities and reading your previous posts on this thread as only strengthened my confidence in Rafale. But can I ask you how do you know so much about the aircrafts? Did you read some book?
I do read many books regarding aircraft but about the Rafale, 90% of what I know about it comes from the internet - while debating with/learning from forum discussions, articles & analysis. On other forums, I've been in touch with French professionals (ex-Dassault and AdlA) and several other well-informed people. It is on these discussions & related reading that my knowledge is based on.
 

Rushil51

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What other forums? Also can you recommend me
I do read many books regarding aircraft but about the Rafale, 90% of what I know about it comes from the internet - while debating with/learning from forum discussions, articles & analysis. On other forums, I've been in touch with French professionals (ex-Dassault and AdlA) and several other well-informed people. It is on these discussions & related reading that my knowledge is based on.
What other forums? Also can you recommend me few books regarding basics of fighter jets?
 

Gessler

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What other forums? Also can you recommend me


What other forums? Also can you recommend me few books regarding basics of fighter jets?
I do not know if I'm supposed to mention names of other forums or not...check out IDF and Keypublishing Aviation Forums. But in order to understand the aspects being discussed, it helps to be initiated in the field first.

Well, one of the first books I read about combat aircraft would be Fighter by Ralf Leinburger.

http://www.amazon.in/Fighter-Technology-History-Ralf-Leinburger/dp/1405495758

I think I was like ~14 when I started off with such books, didn't understand many of the concepts explained in these publications right away, a handy Internet connection is a must! I would suggest you do much online reading first...once initiated, buy some books (you can torrent some of them if you want, but reading a proper book is an experience in itself) about the specific fields that interest you.

For example, when I got interested in the subject of radars, I bought this -




But specialized subjects should only be taken if you're genuinely interested & wish to know more. Concerning this, Introduction to Radar Systems as well as other books in the series by Merrill I. Skolnik (including even more specialized subjects) is a GREAT read for anyone wishing to learn more about the concepts of radar tech, stealth, beamforming, clutter etc.
 

Immanuel

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What's is the point of buy 36 Rafale if it's not coming it with best weapon Package, a toothless $10 ~ billion tiger !

Rafale is coming, there is no going back now, it would be better if IAF gets the best package on par with France, we already leg behind in BVR arena Meteor can't be compared with anything in service with PLAF although their SD 10A is said to have a range 70 - 100 km.Tell us why Meteor is is unfit for Indian context ?

As for PAK FA and S 400 is only a pipe dream as of now even if the deal materialise the 1st PAK FA won't be inducted before 2022 and S 400 before 2020.
Meteor isnt coming for India, you can be sure of that, its far too expensive to be acquired in numbers. Astra will be deployed on the Rafale as that is the reason for extra costs. S-400 deal is massive and once signed will come around end of decade, there is no stopping it, its a strategic buy. Indian PAKFA will take time, but IAF can always choose to get its head out of its ass and order RuAF spec vanilla versions for delivery starting 2020. These PAKFA would still be a better buy than the Rafale.
 

SajeevJino

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.

Lets see how much each Rafale costs

1. Rafale - $100 million
2. MICA EM - 4 missiles - $6 million
3. MICA IR - 4 missiles - $6 million
4. Meteor - 4 missile - $8 million
5. SCALP - 4 missile - $3 million
6. AASM/PGM- 10 bombs - $2 million
7. AASM/LGM - 10 bombs - $2 million


8. Damocles - $2 million
9. RBE 2 AESA - one additional Radar - $5 million
10. M88 Engine - 2 additional engine for each Rafale - $20 million

11. one hour flying cost - $16,000, per year- $5 million per year- 300 flying hour per year- for twenty years - $100 million

12. Base set up, Engineers training, Support - $10 million



As simple each Rafale costs more than $250 millions, those missile numbers can only increases ..

That's the above value for Rafale for twenty years
 

SajeevJino

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I do not know if I'm supposed to mention names of other forums or not...check out IDF and Keypublishing Aviation Forums. But in order to understand the aspects being discussed, it helps to be initiated in the field first.
.
you can quote anything from another forums, except those Pakistani Run IDF and PeeDF
 

WARREN SS

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Unfortunately it's also impossible for enemy to see Rafale at long ranges without emitting. And some sources (like IR) cannot be masked anyway.



Yes, that works as a disadvantage. But still it does not make them useless, nor does it make 5th gen strike planes able to replace 4.5 gen fighters with greater emphasis on A2A than F35, as these planes can still have equal/superior offensive capabilities thanks to modern technology combined with their inherent aerodynamic performance.

For example a BVRAAM launched by Su-35 can be fired from a much higher altitude, while flying at much higher speeds than F35 - that gives the said missile a lot farther range.

These two types can at best compliment each other. For example RAF will use Typhoons for air cover while F35 attacks ground targets.



Rafale radar+SPECTRA sensors would detect J-20 at the same or even longer ranges than F35's radar+sensors. Rafale has placed a much greater emphasis on passive detection techniques than F35 or any other fighter, save for except PAK-FA.



That is extremely relative. Even the most basic RF transmitters on Rafale are based on AESA architecture and are set to receive a GaN upgrade.



That's just one job of Spectra. Plus a system that can mimic & re-transmit your signals with enough accuracy to make it seem as if the target you're looking at has a much smaller RCS than what it really has - means this system has placed a great emphasis on signal-processing power beyond that of most EW suites.

Can the same Active Cancellation techniques be put on, say Tejas EW suite, without changing up the whole architecture, adding new sensor arrays? I don't think so.





I don't think 80km is a poor range. Atleast for a target with little to no IR-suppression methods like flat nozzles. J-20 doesn't have any. In tail-chase that range is 130km. Future upgrades will enhance the range further.

As I said, when Rafale wants to see a target that does not want to be seen, no one sensor will work alone - the IRST will be in conjunction with the radar, EW sensors and even the TV sensor (to ID the target if it's actually that close). IRST only needs to notice spikes in IR signature at those ranges (~80km) and then the radar is told to pick up scan rates in that sector while interferometry sensors also listen to waves from there.

Same is true for other sensors. If EW picks up suspicions transmissions from a sector, radar+IRST can focus there with enhanced range capability. SPECTRA does everything possible to provide best chances of tracking the enemy actively+passively.



That's right the techniques are the same. But it's the emphasis placed on these techniques in the Rafale that makes it better/unique. For example F35 would never give such importance to active cancellation because it has a stealthy airframe to begin with. But Rafale does, because it wants to obtain the advantages of electronically-reducing RCS without sacrificing aerodynamics by going for a stealthy airframe.

Besides, even the Spectra transmitters are going to get GaN at the same time as the radar does.



Sir, working in a datalinked group only increases your chances of detection. That's why aircraft with a full-on emphasis on stealth like F-117/F-22 were originally designed to work without data-link.

Besides Rafales too will be operating in groups.



But still it's likely that PAK-FA's RCS will be bigger than F35's on a clean load. By the equation you have given, F35 will be better than PAK-FA at air combat because it has lesser RCS. It doesn't work like that unfortunately. PAK-FA will still dominate any F35, F22, J20 at air combat, at any ranges.



Please refer to the Swiss evaluation reports. I suppose they were discussed on this forum also?
Hi Gessler Its Treat to read your Posts
 

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