Know Your 'Rafale'

[Khagesh]

Wow this is hot. After 8+ years in Def Min this guy did have some tricks up his sleeves. I thought he was another MMS, who will turn the Rafale deal into a Sharm-al-Shiek. Thank god he had at least the sense to keep the L-1 into dispute.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ale-deal-with-france/articleshow/47399345.cms

Antony said he had told all concerned to continue with the negotiations, but not to take it with government for approval till the L-1 dispute is settled.
<snip>
The company was not ready to transfer technology as part of the agreement.

So there was no bloody deal from the beginning. This was all a show arranged for by pliant baboos, corrupt politicians, a few wanna be dalals in IAF, a few in the Radia-Media and a clutch of fanbois/50 cents on the net played about by the PRO of Dassault. The french never wanted to fulfil the RFP conditions and yet they entered the competition merely to hold IAF to ransom.

Defence Minister A K Anthony admits that the ToT was never agreed to by Dassault despite them having been told about the conditions beforehand.

All the while we were being told that the problem is with the interpretation of clauses and definition of a Weekly work hours. The french never wanted to fulfil the RFQ conditions.

Dassault knew bloody well that in 5-7 years of tests, negotiations and related circus the IAF would have lost/retired/obsolenced many more fighters and both the IAF and GoI will be forced to agree to their terms. And Dassault will then project itself as the saviour of the Indian Nation.

Somebody saw through that in the first few months. Mr. Prime Minister beg you to kill this bloody deal. The aircraft was good but we can easily get several options. This is not a make or break deal for either the IAF or the Defence of the Nation.

 

[Khagesh]

What DRDO/HAL fans think their products look like.
This is how the fanboi think phoren products are:

What they really look like.
This is how spineless whimps sold on phoren products think the DRDO products look:

But this is how DRDO product really are:

 

[sorcerer]

But this is how DRDO product really are:

YOu mean old concept in new packing?


Just kidding!
DRDO is good. They just need to shape up.

 

[avknight1408]

Not Janes per se but Janes India is ruining it's reputation world over. CAG report is outdated on several parameters. For more info, contact our resident DRDO wolves. Still MKI has a better crash rate than Rafale.

As for the further orders or "make in India", I don't have a problem with either. Because I ain't a DRDO/HAL/IOFB groupie.

What DRDO/HAL fans think their products look like.

What they really look like.

Come on buddy. Its easy to criticize someone. HAL / DRDO have had successes and failures. They are coming of age and improving. Look HAL as HAL not as boeing or lockheed martin. Hope for the best.

 

[Pulkit]

Only info i had from DA : do you remember when everyone predicted the Rafale to be abandoned in favour of more SU30? Don't worry.

Afterall its not like if Parrikar had never stepped backk (see M777)...

There is a small difference between two...
M777 and Rafale both were stuck due to price.
Now under GTG they are cheaper that solves half of the problem.
so these two deals went ahead .

In Rafale it has been categorically stated that no more Rafales will be bought and Tejas will be center of attraction for next 3-4 years and depending on its progress decision to buy more Su will be made(This is my view),but for M777 there is still not much details available. If you have please do share.

A desi alternative of M777 is also being looked upon Soon we will be having one of our own.

 

[sob]

And you believe what St.Anthony has to say now. Why the hell did he not speak earlier.

He is trying to muddy the waters at this stage.

 

[jackprince]

It is sad that the French has lost the ability to build beautiful planes, Mirages were stunning... this is plain ugly. I could never imagine Finnish Air Force to buy this kind of plane. If you have limited means, you should always aim for perfection.

Stunning? Ugly?

This is a fighter plane meant to KILL enemy fighters or DESTROY enemy targets. KILLING people is its role. Real Killing like blood and gore. It is not Miss World beauty pageant competition that Rafale needs to be Stunning looking.

Although it IS a good looking fighter. Heck it looks far better than Eurofighter or F-18, for that matter.

 

[jouni]

Stunning? Ugly?

This is a fighter plane meant to KILL enemy fighters or DESTROY enemy targets. KILLING people is its role. Real Killing like blood and gore. It is not Miss World beauty pageant competition that Rafale needs to be Stunning looking.

Although it IS a good looking fighter. Heck it looks far better than Eurofighter or F-18, for that matter.

It looks like our Hawk training fighter with it's strange proportions and too big cockpit. Also I wonder why France does not bring Rafales to Red Flag exercises where our Hornets got 18:1 kill ratio against other NATO fighters.

Still, I am happy for you and France for this deal. Try to make it work. Maybe some clever paintwork could hide some of the worst aspects of its design.

 

[The enlightened]

It looks like our Hawk training fighter with it's strange proportions and too big cockpit. Also I wonder why France does not bring Rafales to Red Flag exercises where our Hornets got 18:1 kill ratio against other NATO fighters.

Still, I am happy for you and France for this deal. Try to make it work. Maybe some clever paintwork could hide some of the worst aspects of its design.

Is this a joke. Rafale is easily the most beautiful of all fighters. Mirage is downright ugly.

 

[Zebra]

...this is plain ugly...

Is this a joke. Rafale is easily the most beautiful of all fighters. Mirage is downright ugly.

And may be that is why many countries bought them.....!

 

[blueblood]

But this is how DRDO product really are:

Wolf number two strikes this time.

You mean DRDO products have face of a bald 65 year old man and body of a 25 year old. You are way too imaginative mate, if only DRDO was too.

You are the kind of guy who will reject 100 F-22s or Aegis system today because DRDO told you that non existent AMCA will be inducted by 2025 and "indigenous Aegis" will be developed someday.

So please spare me the rhetoric and excuses. I have heard it all. This ain't my first rodeo.

accountability

The obligation of an individual or organization to account for its activities, accept responsibility for them, and to disclose the results in a transparent manner. It also includes the responsibility for money or other entrusted property.

 

[blueblood]

Come on buddy. Its easy to criticize someone. HAL / DRDO have had successes and failures. They are coming of age and improving. Look HAL as HAL not as boeing or lockheed martin. Hope for the best.

If I manically come running at you with a knife, will you wait and ponder over the knife being homemade or imported or will you run away or hit me back.

Pretty sure that the F-16s Pakis have is a superior machine to LCA and also carry superior weapon systems. It is a simple fact.

DRDO worshiping will get us nowhere, criticizing and accountability will most certainly help.

 

[blueblood]

It is sad that the French has lost the ability to build beautiful planes, Mirages were stunning... this is plain ugly. I could never imagine Finnish Air Force to buy this kind of plane. If you have limited means, you should always aim for perfection.

IMO Mirage 3 is the most beautiful western design. Still no where close to the Russian designs like Su-24, Mig-29 or MKI.

 

[pmaitra]

Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.

Personally, I think Mirage 2000 looks beautiful, but what is more important is that it is a good airplane.

 

[halloweene]

THAT is the most beautiful Mirage imo

 

[Pulkit]

If I manically come running at you with a knife, will you wait and ponder over the knife being homemade or imported or will you run away or hit me back.

Pretty sure that the F-16s Pakis have is a superior machine to LCA and also carry superior weapon systems. It is a simple fact.

DRDO worshiping will get us nowhere, criticizing and accountability will most certainly help.

I can agree that F-16s are superior to LCA Tejas MK1 on a simple fact that F16 are a proven base where as Tejas still needs to proove its ability but remember it is even older than our Tejas Programme.
On the case of Tejas Mk2 if all the configuration are met then it will be entirely a new scenario.

Not body is worshipping DRDO here but we need to appreciate them if something good is done.
They are criticized to max for not meeting the deadlines but mostly appreciated for the work they do.

They are slow but gaining pace consistently.

You can go and read post http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/lca-tejas-mk-2-vs-f-16-blk-60.48198/ for the comparison .

Regarding your knife example...

If someone is approaching you with a knife and u have nothing what will you do then ... RUN so its better to have a defense and Tejas MK1 and MK2 can be that defense.

Once the FOC is achieved by End of this year Tejas MK1 will have enough teeth to defend.

 

[sorcerer]

Does it matter beautiful / ugly in war where war fundamentals is at question.

Oh..i get it...my Finnish friend is talking in the lines of Femme Fatale...
oooh la laaaa

Heard that many Femme Fatale fighters are real fatale when it comes to maintenance and usability..kinda like that High maintenance cute curvy girl friends a few of us went through.

Hope you are not suffering from Mechanophilia.. if so..get well soon. Don't want you to get caught trousers down inside the turbine..
Ouch!

 

[jouni]

Does it matter beautiful / ugly in war where war fundamentals is at question.

Oh..i get it...my Finnish friend is talking in the lines of Femme Fatale...
oooh la laaaa

Heard that many Femme Fatale fighters are real fatale when it comes to maintenance and usability..kinda like that High maintenance cute curvy girl friends a few of us went through.

Hope you are not suffering from Mechanophilia.. if so..get well soon. Don't want you to get caught trousers down inside the turbine..
Ouch!

Yeah, maybe there is some nostalgia involved. Mostly it is the fact that in ingenious design you cannot separate beauty from "Technic". Ever heard of fibonacchi? If not, I suggest you study him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number

 

[sorcerer]

Yeah, maybe there is some nostalgia involved. Mostly it is the fact that in ingenious design you cannot separate beauty from "Technic". Ever heard of fibonacchi? If not, I suggest you study him.

From the levels of war and on practicality of the machine involved in the war was my point of the argument.
Not the Fibonacci or the looks of it.

You sure is an architect with an eye for details.

 

[blueblood]

Once the FOC is achieved by End of this year Tejas MK1 will have enough teeth to defend.

I think I have heard that one before.

Here something for you mate.

This is not some stock photo. I was thirteen and very exited that day and I am 27 and very indifferent today to the fate of Tejas.

I was a DRDO/HAL groupie long before it was cool. But over the time I realized that defence PSU employees are as smart and as dedicated as any other "Sarkari naukar" like your municipal corporation employees or your govt. school teacher.

So please forgive me if I am not interested in discussing the FOC of Tejas after 14 years of rock solid disappointment, day after day, year after year.

Thank you.