Know Your 'Rafale'

[Khagesh]

And you believe what St.Anthony has to say now. Why the hell did he not speak earlier.

He is trying to muddy the waters at this stage.

No, he is not in fact he was the only one who cautioned Congessis that the 36 is still not a signed deal. In any case whatever side, good / bad / ugly, Anthony takes, he uses the rulebook to promote that side. That is his style.

Anthony was always at sea balancing between the prescribed rulebook and his masterni's voice.

If he says that he had reservations on the L1 status because the french were lying. And if that same premise is used by Modi also, then there is sufficient circumstantial evidence that the french are in the habit of lying when it comes to selling there wares.

I don't mind the french in this case. There job is to sell their wares. What I do mind is, IAF honchos, behaving like Jahangir handing out trading rights, that is not for them to give.

A bunch of people who 'learnt' the life-cycle costing from the swiss and french manufacturers and then under their watch, both the swiss and french renege on the L-1 conditions. For me that raises suspicion on if these IAF people have actually learnt anything at all, unless you want to raise the even damning suspicion that they are hand in glove with the swiss/frenchies.

Even in the Pilatus deal these same IAF honchos were blackmailing Anthony despite the fact that the MoF and elements of MoD were on the same page on several issues. How is Rafale L-1 different from Pilatus L-1 case. They both are the creation of a pompous brigade that claims that a BRD will make an MMRCA – if this is not blackmail then what is it?

Even for the Pilatus these IAF honchos बड़ी बड़ी बातैं लिखते थे न MoD को. सबसे पहले तो Parrikar को यह सब पत्राचार out करना चाहिए, alongwith the full rulebook, so the citizen of this country can study the two first hand. All correspondence ever signed by any ACM should be outed, wherever they have mentioned anything about costs and contract negotiations. IAF has RTI privileges only in cases where they are serving their primary job. This privilege should not be extended carte-blanche to all areas of final acquisition. If an ACM believes he will get credit for managing a BRD to a level where he thinks a BRD can make an MMRCA then such an ACM must be questioned on how, at what 'expense', under what mandate and to what purpose, this capability was created.

We have to remember this is the same IAF that created the drama of having their senior experienced pilot fly a plane that was killing junior graduating pilots, in order to quell their voices, but will not order one of the safest planes to fly – the LCA Mk-1. A plane declared safe by the prime test pilots the country had.

Digging up the mention of these IAF honchos I have been getting round to the belief that a major part of the blamed heaped on Anthony is actually the one that should go these honchos, deliberately compromising the IAF capabilities to eventually use the erosion of these capabilities to compromise the stands of the government of the day.

 

[Pulkit]

I think I have heard that one before.

Here something for you mate.

This is not some stock photo. I was thirteen and very exited that day and I am 27 and very indifferent today to the fate of Tejas.

I was a DRDO/HAL groupie long before it was cool. But over the time I realized that defence PSU employees are as smart and as dedicated as any other "Sarkari naukar" like your municipal corporation employees or your govt. school teacher.

So please forgive me if I am not interested in discussing the FOC of Tejas after 14 years of rock solid disappointment, day after day, year after year.

Thank you.

I was not discussing it at all...
You questioned something and I replied to you on same lines.

I understand the frustration but that anger shud be for the IAF DRDO ADA HAL and not for Tejas .
I have not given up on Tejas I am a little younger to you but trust me for last 14 years I have been waiting for it to join IAF.

I was in Bangalore in 2001 with family when I first came to know about this bird.
I have been waiting patiently ever since.

 

[blueblood]

I was not discussing it at all...
You questioned something and I replied to you on same lines.

1) Armed forces should get the best equipment possible.

2) If the said "best equipment" is/can be made available by a PSU on time, under budget then Allah bless them all. Perfect example is LCH.

3) If not armed forces should buy it from whomever they can.

4) PSU people who go to a 9 to 5 job should not bitch and moan about the said purchase. They won't loose their jobs or their reputation.

5) Every major nation attempts to make something, fails and move on. We don't. We are too stupid to do that.

These are my points. You can agree or disagree with them but discussing them further is futile.

I understand the frustration but that anger shud be for the IAF DRDO ADA HAL and not for Tejas .
I have not given up on Tejas I am a little younger to you but trust me for last 14 years I have been waiting for it to join IAF.

I was in Bangalore in 2001 with family when I first came to know about this bird.
I have been waiting patiently ever since.

But I also blame IAF and MOD for this nonsense. I don't get paid for not cursing them.

As for the patience mate, all I can say is

You're a better man than I am

 

[Pulkit]

1) Armed forces should get the best equipment possible.

2) If the said "best equipment" is/can be made available by a PSU on time, under budget then Allah bless them all. Perfect example is LCH.

3) If not armed forces should buy it from whomever they can.

4) PSU people who go to a 9 to 5 job should not bitch and moan about the said purchase. They won't loose their jobs or their reputation.

5) Every major nation attempts to make something, fails and move on. We don't. We are too stupid to do that.

These are my points. You can agree or disagree with them but discussing them further is futile.



But I also blame IAF and MOD for this nonsense. I don't get paid for not cursing them.

As for the patience mate, all I can say is

Thanks for your response I agree more or less with you.

 

[tejas warrior]

I remember.. think I was in class 8 or something when saw DD showing news of Indian LCA making its first flight and PM Atal B Bajpayee naming it Tejas !! I was thrilled.
I had purchased a special edition of India Today magazine.. and read the complete report multiple times

 

[SajeevJino]

An excellent piece from Admiral Rakesh sir posted in BRF

------------------------------------------

If anyone thinks only 36 aircraft are coming, then I would humbly suggest you take a walk along the yellow brick road with Dorothy, Scarecrow, Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion from the Wizard of the Oz. I do not think it is going to be 90 additional aircraft, but perhaps another squadron or two more. And yes I realise you are quoting Manohar Parrikar, but things do change. None of us can predict the future, not even the honorable Raksha Mantri himself.


-------------------------------------

 

[Pulkit]

An excellent piece from Admiral Rakesh sir posted in BRF
------------------------------------------
If anyone thinks only 36 aircraft are coming, then I would humbly suggest you take a walk along the yellow brick road with Dorothy, Scarecrow, Tin Man and the Cowardly Lion from the Wizard of the Oz. I do not think it is going to be 90 additional aircraft, but perhaps another squadron or two more. And yes I realise you are quoting Manohar Parrikar, but things do change. None of us can predict the future, not even the honorable Raksha Mantri himself.
-------------------------------------

Having expectations is good and even I was thinking that one more might coming on the same lines of mirage.
But as you said that is the view of our present Defense Minister and just in case Tejas MK2 gets delayed beyond 2018-19 to get complete Defense ministry will have two options to increase SU MKI or Rafale.
By 2019 all orders of Su and Rafale will be complete and ready for further orders .
In my view there are more chances of SU getting further orders as suggested by Manohar sir and being produced locally.

I have full faith in Tejas in the current state and in future state and if we get them on time we can easily have 42 squad by 2030 with FGFA and AMCA aswell.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

PARRIKAR VOLTE-FACE OPENS DOOR FOR MORE RAFALE FIGHTERS

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, in a television interview on Tuesday evening, did not rule out buying more Rafale fighters, over and above the 36 that Prime Minister Narendra Modi requested the French government for during his visit to Paris in April.
On Thursday, Parrikar had declared that buying 90 less Rafale fighter than the 126 that was earlier planned, would save him money to buy more Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
"I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar had said in New Delhi.
Yet, on Tuesday, the defence minister backed off from that statement, declining to clarify whether the Rafale purchase would be capped at 36 fighters.

"I'm not saying we will buy more Rafale; I'm not saying we will not buy more," said Parrikar.

All that he confirmed is that French vendors would have to discharge offsets worth 50 per cent of the contract value; and that the final price for the Rafale would be cheaper than what Dassault had quoted for 18 ready-built fighters in its commercial bid in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender.
"In the MMRCA tender, Dassault was to supply 18 Rafales in flyaway condition, and also build 90 fighters in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Now Dassault is freed of the responsibility to 'Make in India'. The price they now supply the Rafale at should not just be lower, but at least 30-35 per cent lower than the price which included 'Make in India," says Pushpinder Singh, aerospace industry expert.
Parrikar says negotiations with France will start next week. On Monday, he had told Indian Express that the contract would be finalized in 2-3 months and the first Rafales would be supplied to the IAF within one year.

Parrikar also did a volte-face on the mountain strike corps (MSC), repudiating an earlier statement that it was being cut down by half to one-third.


On April 13, Parrikar had told Doordarshan: "I think we'll have to work out the size of it properly. It cannot be the size initially approved. It has to be slightly trimmed down." Soon after that, his ministry said that, instead of raising a 70,000-person corps for Rs 88,000 crore, the new corps would have half that number and cost Rs 38,000 crore over next eight years.
On Tuesday Parrikar said the MSC was being pared down only as a temporary measure because of a funding shortfall. When funds became available, the MSC would be built up to the strength planned by the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government, he clarified.
The defence minister also created another deadline for himself, promising on Tuesday that his ministry would finalise a proposal for a "chief of defence staff," or CDS, and send it up for cabinet sanction by end-June.
In the interview, Parrikar appeared slightly confused about whether the tri-service chief would be a five-star "chief of defence staff," as recommended by a Group of Minister in 2001; or a four-star "permanent chairman of the chiefs of staff committee" recommended by the Naresh Chandra Committee in 2012.
"What does a name matter?" he responded to a query by the interviewer. He added the new post would be significantly more powerful than the current three-star "chief of integrated defence staff" that coordinates tri-service planning.
Questioned on "one rank, one pension" (OROP), on which the government has slipped several deadlines, Parrikar stated it would be cleared in a "reasonable" time frame. The proposal was with the finance ministry, he said, and since they had not come back to him with any queries, he assumed it would be cleared. In January, Parrikar had stated that OROP would be implemented by July, within a year of it being publicly accepted by the new government. Parrikar reassured ex-servicemen that OROP would be implemented in full; and that arrears would be paid from April 2014.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-for-more-rafale-fighters-115052700033_1.html

 

[bose]

I do not understand where is the confusion with what Perrikar says, why close all the option if there be any need in future to buy more Rafales...

 

[sob]

I would not say that this is a volte face by the RM, but a very pragmatic step keeping in view the budgetary constraints. He is keeping all options open, which in my view is the correct approach.

People generally see that X amount has been returned to the budget as unused, but they should compare the actual usage amount year on year.This gives a better picture.

 

[Compersion]

when are negations with the french to be concluded per the "intention to buy statement" ...

the way RM is talking and behaving sometimes feel this ought to have been done years ago ... the present government seems to be on steroids (good) !!

 

[sob]

The German Defence minister is in town. French will be quite worried.

However the negotiation meeting is slated to be in June.

 

[Compersion]

Getting feeling that the main player that will dictate is the Americans ... they have a chance to score massive with Tejas if they play it properly (The Russians have engines in Pakis planes).

And if the French dont understand that would be funny and they would have been seen to be the biggest looser in this and it would not be a good image of their government administration and we dont need to deal with such people in their present formation frankly.

The Americans will replace the French in seconds. Already we are seeing the momentum building.

But the complexity is:

if the French understand that and agree -hence the sudden (American stimulated) Arab deals for compensation perhaps - we need to make it explicit and clear and guaranteed full TOT with Americans with the GE Engine and that needs to be linked. The French need to wish us good and we have to deal with the reality.

The French are giving up a long term industrial and strategic union and merger and we need to hear it from their mouth why they are doing that and if they are doing it.

If it Is because India cannot handle massive military TOT equipment absorption (history says otherwise) that would be unreasonable and if it is because of price (only). Denial of TOT is there.

Sometimes I really feel the French will not give up and still feel there is much more to come from the French (viva la France < - > cest la vie) and their history with Israel is significant and they dont need to create another anti-Jewish angle (India supports Israel one can say also <-> America dominance over France military industry <-> The people of India see France (un)supportive action like Israel did and preference to Arabs).

The way Dassult talks about India and our closness with France (after Pokhram and even Mirages use during Kargil) is in the background.

The beauty it now it seems the British also the "others" are saying they are comfortable with HAL

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...r-hawk-mk132-upgrade/articleshow/47429223.cms

There is a lot more and beauty that meets the eye.

This Rafael deal is going to set and place a lot of strings for the future.

and we must not forget the Russians. Because they dont announce does not mean they are stupid. The Sukhoi/HAL FGFA is the Ace of Spades that Americans, French and others will have to overcome (and hence the dealings).

I feel ideal would be 150+ Rafael, 150 - 300+ Tejas and rest Russians SU 30MKI and FGFA. The Americans will get in with the Tejas but the French will be there. This is best for all parties at this moment and past 10 years has not change the dynamics. We dont know the future.

This would fit the transmission and transformation in the long-term if there is any. We ought to get it like that and see what occurs in the future. The current situation is factually we are in a transition. The French need to tell us if they want to be part of the future.

It would be a gentle reminder and open challenge to Russia that there are competitors and they need to keep advancing and we will support them. We will not abandon them but we see the picture.

We want to be in a position if they loose their edge and importance it is only fair we protect ourselves. Afterall we will in a way share such position and advancement with them anyway.

We dont backstab and we are not backstabbing and are being open and i am sure that is appreciate and we are not disabling and throwing away our strategic relationships. We are not making anyone suffer (i.e Russia) on purpose (unlike others and their neighbors in the past and present).

Sure we are a big market and important and growing nation that will be a important player for region and global affairs and others need not feel we are making them suffer and doing it on purpose we need to advance and our advancement is actually good for them.

Another feeling is that the previous government might not able to comprehend the implications of the deal and thankfully for the IFS that hedged such naivety for 10 years.

When the IFS and RM get in tune it is a beauty to the ears and eyes.

Any deal if it is Zero - 36 - 150 + Rafeal that is with India has strategic implications.

 

[Compersion]

I heard somewhere that the RM has said negotiations for Rafael under the terms that they be better compared to the MRCA tender have started already and he does not want to prejudice them.

(Love it)

 

[Pulkit]

I do not understand where is the confusion with what Perrikar says, why close all the option if there be any need in future to buy more Rafales...

Even if there is intention to buy any more then also in the next decade we will not be having enough funds to buy them.
We have few in line:
1)Tejas MK1
2)Tejas MK2
3)FGFA
4)AMCA
5)Helis
6)Unammaned aircrafts

These are lined up for next decade which will need almost all the funds for the IAF.
The same has been said by current DM aswell.

 

[bose]

Even if there is intention to buy any more then also in the next decade we will not be having enough funds to buy them.
We have few in line:
1)Tejas MK1
2)Tejas MK2
3)FGFA
4)AMCA
5)Helis
6)Unammaned aircrafts

These are lined up for next decade which will need almost all the funds for the IAF.
The same has been said by current DM aswell.

yes you are right, bro...

I personally doubt that we will be beyond 36 rafale, the emphasis will be on Tejas MK2 & AMCA...

I see the 36 Rafale purchase as a means to exit the MMRCA fiasco by giving something to French...

 

[Armand2REP]

"I'm not saying we will buy more Rafale; I'm not saying we will not buy more," said Parrikar.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-for-more-rafale-fighters-115052700033_1.html

 

[rotormagic]

The RM is trying to keep options open. It is just too difficult to forecast going forward on our future needs. Taking a call on whether our planned acquisitions will meet desired timelines (FGFA, LCA Mk2, AMCA) all under development is the challenge. Additionally, our military imports will also reflect how our neighbours on the East (primarily) and West start scaling up their military abilities.

Hence, ruling out more Rafales will not be prudent. Presently we are OK with 36 and if all else falls in place we will not need more of these.

We have also not finalised the Air component of INS Vishal, so why shut the door on Rafale?

What is certain is that the MMRCA deal as envisaged is dead.

 

[mahesh]

well when will be this 36 Rafale be delivered to IAF ?

 

[SajeevJino]

well when will be this 36 Rafale be delivered to IAF ?

Still they were in Discussion
next Finance clearance
Third Agreement
fourth Delivery