Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kay]

After de-linking Snecma-Kaveri JV from MMRCA, there is simply not much value for money in the deal. Rafale is a good plane, but prohibitively expensive for a stop-gap 4.5 generation plane. It is unreasonable to expect Dassault to guarantee air-crafts manufactured by HAL (even if it was in the original RFP - which may or may not be true). After Sarkozy, the French did show bad faith (Snecma pullout, jacking of costs of "miscellaneous" items and trying to rope in Reliance) - though the blame for the first two lie with MoD and IAF's ineptitude/ implicit consent. MoD should not have allowed Dassault to dictate terms. The Reliance proposal was insulting, laughable and simply obnoxious. (Everyone is aware of Reliance's reputation even if we ignore its aerospace capabilities).

Our IAF needs planes, but it does have enough now (less than 60% of MKIs are getting utilized). There is no reason for IAF to panic right now other than serving vested interests. They have the option to order more Tejas MK1s to replace Mig-21s instead of waiting for Mk2s. But eventually more planes will be needed.

So, a win-win for everyone (GOI, IAF and Dassault) would be to buy fewer planes (40-80), instead of cancelling or accepting the whole deal, or going for second vendor.
Deal should include all source codes and ToT promised and amount should not exceed $12 billion. The rest of the money can be pumped into FGFA and AMCA.

 

[SajeevJino]

Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief​

Amidst swirling speculation that India's M-MRCA jet deal with Rafale is shuddering through final lap turbulence, and suggestions (including by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar himself) that the India could buy more Su-30 MKI jets if the Rafale deal didn't work out, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha today publicly declared that the Rafale and Su-30 were different aircraft and that one couldn't replace the other.

"There's M-MRCA and there's Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other," Raha said at his press conference at the Aero India show in Bengaluru.

Making clear the IAF's own thoughts on open suggestions that 'other options' existed in the event of a deal collapse, Raha said, "No, we don't have a Plan-B as of now. We are only working on Plan-A."

The IAF chief also stated, in what could be perceived as a sense of resignation over the turbulence negotiations have seen over the last 18 months, "Rafale has been selected as L1. It is a replacement. It is important that we have the MMRCA, I would not say Rafale. But we need to have it in the quickest possible time because the draw-down is true. Everyone is aware of the draw-down of combat squadrons of the IAF. Every air force faces this in its cycle of operations. It is not new or specific to IAF."

LIVEFIST: Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief

 

[karn]

RIP Indian moron media . If this news is true then hopefully they will sign it soon .

The budget is in 9 days . I expect announcements in march/april .

 

[smestarz]

It is hilarious to see the Indian and French Govt playing the ball game..... thrust and parry in diplomatic parlance!!

Point is that since both the Govt's are sniping in the media the picture does nt look rosy for the Rafale!!

Errr.... I do understand that my french friends here are trying to add to the melee by saying if Rafale deal does nt go through then we are stuck!!

It is like a friendly match and there is no scoreboard

 

[smestarz]

Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief​

Amidst swirling speculation that India's M-MRCA jet deal with Rafale is shuddering through final lap turbulence, and suggestions (including by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar himself) that the India could buy more Su-30 MKI jets if the Rafale deal didn't work out, Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha today publicly declared that the Rafale and Su-30 were different aircraft and that one couldn't replace the other.

"There's M-MRCA and there's Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other," Raha said at his press conference at the Aero India show in Bengaluru.

Making clear the IAF's own thoughts on open suggestions that 'other options' existed in the event of a deal collapse, Raha said, "No, we don't have a Plan-B as of now. We are only working on Plan-A."

The IAF chief also stated, in what could be perceived as a sense of resignation over the turbulence negotiations have seen over the last 18 months, "Rafale has been selected as L1. It is a replacement. It is important that we have the MMRCA, I would not say Rafale. But we need to have it in the quickest possible time because the draw-down is true. Everyone is aware of the draw-down of combat squadrons of the IAF. Every air force faces this in its cycle of operations. It is not new or specific to IAF."

LIVEFIST: Rafale & Sukhoi Can't Replace Each Other: IAF Chief

There is how an IAF chief opens his mouth at the wrong time and trying to undermine what the MoD is doing.
Best option scrap MMRCA

 

[SajeevJino]

There is how an IAF chief opens his mouth at the wrong time and trying to undermine what the MoD is doing.
Best option scrap MMRCA

I know most of the DFIans are More Intelligent than the Cheif of Air Staff India

 

[Punya Pratap]

I know most of the DFIans are More Intelligent than the Cheif of Air Staff India

Dear Sajeev, I have said it before and I say it again, you do not force your own Government's hands when it is trying to negotiate the best deal it can from a FOREIGN OEM by saying the things the respected COAS has said. NAK Browne had also made a more sweeping pronouncements for the DIRE NEED of Rafale.... the good part is at least Arun Raha's stand shows that IAF is also willing to let go of its fixation for Rafale and can work with any Medium Multi Role Fighter! This in itself says a lot about where Rafale deal is heading since the day Rafale was shortlisted!!

 

[sob]

Euro is down by more than 12% against the Rupee. Good news for the Govt.

 

[sgarg]

Euro is down by more than 12% against the Rupee. Good news for the Govt.

Not a significant factor. I think the price in tender is in US dollar.

 

[Punya Pratap]

After de-linking Snecma-Kaveri JV from MMRCA, there is simply not much value for money in the deal. Rafale is a good plane, but prohibitively expensive for a stop-gap 4.5 generation plane. It is unreasonable to expect Dassault to guarantee air-crafts manufactured by HAL (even if it was in the original RFP - which may or may not be true). After Sarkozy, the French did show bad faith (Snecma pullout, jacking of costs of "miscellaneous" items and trying to rope in Reliance) - though the blame for the first two lie with MoD and IAF's ineptitude/ implicit consent. MoD should not have allowed Dassault to dictate terms. The Reliance proposal was insulting, laughable and simply obnoxious. (Everyone is aware of Reliance's reputation even if we ignore its aerospace capabilities).

Our IAF needs planes, but it does have enough now (less than 60% of MKIs are getting utilized). There is no reason for IAF to panic right now other than serving vested interests. They have the option to order more Tejas MK1s to replace Mig-21s instead of waiting for Mk2s. But eventually more planes will be needed.

So, a win-win for everyone (GOI, IAF and Dassault) would be to buy fewer planes (40-80), instead of cancelling or accepting the whole deal, or going for second vendor.
Deal should include all source codes and ToT promised and amount should not exceed $12 billion. The rest of the money can be pumped into FGFA and AMCA.

An excellent point Kay, I have been crying hoarse trying to drive this logic in everyone's thinking process that why do we need to spend a bomb for buying a 4.5 gen MMRCA which does nt give you cutting edge over your adversaries. Bearing in mind that with in a decade your bullying neighbour (China) shall be flying 2 5th Gen fighters!! 4.5 Gen Tech is becoming passe every day that this deal is extended....we needed MMRCA about 5-10 years back but now we need 5th Gen planes in the next 10 years...not some extraordinarily expensive planes like Rafale....its like buying a Battleship when the entire world has shifted to Guided Missile Destroyers!!

I have posted this earlier also.... you really need to take into account what is the operational requirement looking at the soon t be retired fighters from IAF's fleet.

Mig 21 BIS/Bison 240 + Interceptor / Fighter /CAS
Mig 27 Bahadur 86 Strike / Ground Attack
Jaguars 140 + Deep penetration Strike / Ground Attack (Scheduled for Upgrades - re engined / radars and avionics suite)

It is clear that out of the above three, the replacement of Mig 21 & Mig 27 are the first priority since both of them are long over due. The ideal and logical replacement is Tejas Mk1/Mk2 for the Mig 21 and for Mig 27's you should look at an MMRCA with excellent Ground Attack/Stike Role capability!! AMCA is in turn the perfect replacement for the Jags and should be ready when the Jags go for retirement (ideally 2022/2025)

 

[ersakthivel]

I know most of the DFIans are More Intelligent than the Cheif of Air Staff India

If only the Air chief is bringing the 20 plus billion dollars needed for this just 126 plane non stealth 4.5th gen two decades old Rafale airframe buy,

from selling his grandfather's property We at DFI will support this deal wholeheartedly.

Our Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has openly said that upgraded SU-30 MKI is an alternative if rafale deal fails to go through, then why so many airchiefs are claiming that "there is no alternative for Rafale deal".

Now the present Air chief has climbed down from his predecessor's no alternative claim and has clearly said that ,"IAF needs MMRCA type fighter".

Obviously our DM manohar parrikar thinks that SU-30 MKI upgraded is also a MMRCA type fighter.

May be IAF chiefs have no plan B if rafale deal falls through, but GOI has a plan B in SU-30 MKI and tejas combo . So we need not worry much.Even IAf chief has said that Rafale and SU-30 MI are only slightly different , not vastly different.

And why should so many Indian Air force guys come out in the open to say there is no alternative to rafale?

The world has so many airforces, Is there no alternative to all of these if tomorrow Dassault closes its factory?

Certainly the air forces f England, and so many EU countries along with russian and chinese Airforces are not going to operate rafale.

So what will these countries field in place of rafale in IAF?

Those guys making those statement that there is no alternative to rafale are only strengthening the hand of Dassault in negotiations and weakening the country's bargaining power in the deal.

And after Rafale won the deal china has flown two 5th gen stealths , doesn't that change the ground situation in India's neighborhood? No one from IAF has ever spoken about this, Why?

this is one for the key reasons why many are arguing that IAF's future strength must be invested in FGFA and AMCA to take that into account. In the meantime IAf could do with SU-30 MKI-tejas mk1 and mk2 in the meanwhile.

 

[dastan]

Good for French, if the deal goes through, they'll get more than enough dolls to fund their next gen fighter projects

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear Ersakthivel, the funny and horrifying part is that if IAF is saying there is no PLAN B in a procurement then how do they manage to evolve strategies in a battle scenario when everything is extremely fluid. I was extremely concerned when IAF was loosing their jets to something as basic as a Stinger during Kargil!! I wonder what shall happen when they come face to face with a capable adversary like the PLAAF who have more than just Stingers!!

Rafale certainly does nt give you an edge over PLAAF as we all know by the time we start rolling our HAL made Rafale the PLAAF should start inducting not 1 but 2 Stealthy 5th Gen jets!!

Now I wonder why IAF is willing to sacrifice even the FGFA for Rafale!!

And since you have mentioned the previous COAS, I wonder what should be made of his letter to MoD where he has put it on record saying that the Pilatus is cheaper than the HAL's trainer besides his stubborn insistence that Rafale is the only option !! I should think CAG will have a field day the same way UPA 2's Coal Block auctioning if they go through the MMRCA deal where LCC is surely going to make the Rafale anything but the L1!!

 

[SajeevJino]

Dear Ersakthivel, the funny and horrifying part is that if IAF is saying there is no PLAN B in a procurement then how do they manage to evolve strategies in a battle scenario when everything is extremely fluid.

Yes sir .. even you too know that . But the Largest Airforce, fought in some major wars and conflicts didn't know that..!!! good good

I was extremely concerned when IAF was loosing their jets to something as basic as a Stinger during Kargil!! I wonder what shall happen when they come face to face with a capable adversary like the PLAAF who have more than just Stingers!!

did you noticed why those Mirages comes with Remora EW pods. why those Fighters flew above 6000 ft.. after the shoot down of Mig 23 and Mig 21

Rafale certainly does nt give you an edge over PLAAF as we all know by the time we start rolling our HAL made Rafale the PLAAF should start inducting not 1 but 2 Stealthy 5th Gen jets!!

yes we too have two fifth gen projects, three kind of 5th gen fighters, PAK FA, FGFA, AMCA. but time frame may vary

Now I wonder why IAF is willing to sacrifice even the FGFA for Rafale!!

Ajay Shukla exactly ..!!!

And since you have mentioned the previous COAS, I wonder what should be made of his letter to MoD where he has put it on record saying that the Pilatus is cheaper than the HAL's trainer besides his stubborn insistence that Rafale is the only option !! I should think CAG will have a field day the same way UPA 2's Coal Block auctioning if they go through the MMRCA deal where LCC is surely going to make the Rafale anything but the L1!!

operating costs are only $4000 bigger compared to the Su 30 MKI run ..!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Dear Ersakthivel, the funny and horrifying part is that if IAF is saying there is no PLAN B in a procurement then how do they manage to evolve strategies in a battle scenario when everything is extremely fluid. I was extremely concerned when IAF was loosing their jets to something as basic as a Stinger during Kargil!! I wonder what shall happen when they come face to face with a capable adversary like the PLAAF who have more than just Stingers!!

Rafale certainly does nt give you an edge over PLAAF as we all know by the time we start rolling our HAL made Rafale the PLAAF should start inducting not 1 but 2 Stealthy 5th Gen jets!!

Now I wonder why IAF is willing to sacrifice even the FGFA for Rafale!!

And since you have mentioned the previous COAS, I wonder what should be made of his letter to MoD where he has put it on record saying that the Pilatus is cheaper than the HAL's trainer besides his stubborn insistence that Rafale is the only option !! I should think CAG will have a field day the same way UPA 2's Coal Block auctioning if they go through the MMRCA deal where LCC is surely going to make the Rafale anything but the L1!!

Well, Our DM Parrikar thinks there is an alternative to rafale and boldly stated it as being upgraded SU-30 MKI.

After this "there is no alternative to Rafale' claim from IAF has softened a bit. And now we are seeing Dassault chief claiming that they will stick to original L1 price .

So the new govt is taking a right approach by clearly sending out feelers that they will not buy rafale at any exorbitant price ,

and no bending of the original RFP rules , which needs Dassault's guarantees for HAL produced rafale at the L1 price.

SO if everything goes right and Rafale is procured with a justifiable Lifecycle cost it is good for IAF. But still there are some issues in lifecycle cost calculation as well. This needs to be sorted out soon .

Now every one understand two facts, that is ,

1.there is an alternative to Rafale and GOI will go for that in case negotiations fail whatever IAF chiefs say.

2. If Dassault is serious it needs to sort out all pending issues as per RFP and get the deal signed.

Because the new govt is not ready to face a barage of corruption claims , if origianl L1 price , lifecycle cost criterian or Dassalut guarantee is tinkered with, unlike the previous UPA which had a habit of brazening out any corruption charges and rushing through with 2G and coal scams because it believes it has an ASEA equipped upgraded SU-30 MKI option to fall back upon.

SO this clears all the smoke and fire over the deal. And now lets see how things proceed.

 

[Punya Pratap]

SajeevJino;1007138]Yes sir .. even you too know that . But the Largest Airforce, fought in some major wars and conflicts didn't know that..!!! good good

Dear Sajeev, IAF is not the largest Air Force (Defence News - 10 Strongest Air Forces of the World)

did you noticed why those Mirages comes with Remora EW pods. why those Fighters flew above 6000 ft.. after the shoot down of Mig 23 and Mig 21

Let me sum up the turn of events for you during the Kargil War besides pointing out that we did lost a MIG 21 & a MIG 27 instead of a MIG 23 as you have wrongly put

11th May - A Canberra on Recce is shot and damaged by MANPADS and returns back on one engine
25th May - GoI allows only choppers but IAF argues for fighters and gets permission on the 26th of May
27th May - 1 Mig 27 and 1 Mig 21 are shot down by Stingers
28th May - 1 Mi - 17 chopper is shot down

ONLY ON THE 30th of MAY DOES IAF CALL IN THE MIRAGES ARMED WITH ISRAELI LGB's AND REMORA EW PODS !!

Now do you need me to summarize more for you.... well here goes :

The IAF should have realised that the insurgents had MANPADS on the 11th of May itself when the Canbberra got shot at..... The IAF should have known on the 27th of May itself that a Chopper is extremely vulnerable after loosing 2 fighters (Mig 27 & Mig 21) but no they operated a Mi-17 which was shot down on the next day i.e. the 28th of May!! Tell me what chances does a Chopper have when you have already lost 2 fighters the PREVIOUS day!!

You have to assess the enemies resources before you pit in your resources..... the damaged Canberra on the 11th of May should have made the IAF realise that they need fighters which can jam a Stinger instead they lost 3 more assets!! They should have called in the Mirages on the first day instead of throwing in a pure fighter/interceptor like Mig 21!! I wonder had it been an WAR with the entire PAF attacking how many assets we would have lost before IAF started seeing the obvious facts.

So in a nut shell the IAF needs to asses the enemies resources and then also make an informed judgement as to what it wants!! So a PLAAF with 2 - 5th Gen Fighters in next 10 years should force the IAF to reassess as to what it need!!

yes we too have two fifth gen projects, three kind of 5th gen fighters, PAK FA, FGFA, AMCA. but time frame may vary

Time frame will vary as long as IAF stops hankering for a 4 + Fighter that shall bust our resources and empty the purse when it comes to purchasing the FGFA or developing the AMCA!

Ajay Shukla exactly ..!!!

Shoot Ajay Shukla... the above facts are available and undeniable!!

operating costs are only $4000 bigger compared to the Su 30 MKI run ..!!!

You still dont understand!!! We paid through the nose for upgrading the Mirage coz it was the only fighter that saved IAF's reputation in the Kargil War and they are infatuated enough to shell out 3 Billion for upgrading 51 Mirages!! A price that could have got us more than 3 brand new squads of MKI!! The same drama will unfold when the Rafale's come in for upgrades...CNC is scratching its brains now since there are 61 EXTRAS that were not quoted and that shall make the LCC higher than the L2 for this deal!

I had said a long time back that we do not have the expertise/where withalls of computing the prices and all the suppliers be it the Russinas (GOrky) or French (Scorepene) have used as a milking cow time and again!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Well, Our DM Parrikar thinks there is an alternative to rafale and boldly stated it as being upgraded SU-30 MKI.

After this "there is no alternative to Rafale' claim from IAF has softened a bit. And now we are seeing Dassault chief claiming that they will stick to original L1 price .

So the new govt is taking a right approach by clearly sending out feelers that they will not buy rafale at any exorbitant price ,

and no bending of the original RFP rules , which needs Dassault's guarantees for HAL produced rafale at the L1 price.

SO if everything goes right and Rafale is procured with a justifiable Lifecycle cost it is good for IAF. But still there are some issues in lifecycle cost calculation as well. This needs to be sorted out soon .

Now every one understand two facts, that is ,

1.there is an alternative to Rafale and GOI will go for that in case negotiations fail whatever IAF chiefs say.

2. If Dassault is serious it needs to sort out all pending issues as per RFP and get the deal signed.

Because the new govt is not ready to face a barage of corruption claims , if origianl L1 price , lifecycle cost criterian or Dassalut guarantee is tinkered with, unlike the previous UPA which had a habit of brazening out any corruption charges and rushing through with 2G and coal scams because it believes it has an ASEA equipped upgraded SU-30 MKI option to fall back upon.

SO this clears all the smoke and fire over the deal. And now lets see how things proceed.

The reason why the IAF is now willing to go for any fighter instead of Rafale is coz of the recent revelation by the CNC which has flagged the costing disparity not only in MMCA but also in Pilatus!! Both sticking points for IAF which is suddenly changing its stance!

 

[SajeevJino]

Dear Sajeev, IAF is not the largest Air Force (Defence News - 10 Strongest Air Forces of the World)

Let me sum up the turn of events for you during the Kargil War besides pointing out that we did lost a MIG 21 & a MIG 27 instead of a MIG 23 as you have wrongly put

'

oh sorry It's MiG 27 ...!!

11th May - A Canberra on Recce is shot and damaged by MANPADS and returns back on one engine
25th May - GoI allows only choppers but IAF argues for fighters and gets permission on the 26th of May
27th May - 1 Mig 27 and 1 Mig 21 are shot down by Stingers
28th May - 1 Mi - 17 chopper is shot down

ONLY ON THE 30th of MAY DOES IAF CALL IN THE MIRAGES ARMED WITH ISRAELI LGB's AND REMORA EW PODS !!

After that how many Kills ..!!!

Now do you need me to summarize more for you.... well here goes :

The IAF should have realised that the insurgents had MANPADS on the 11th of May itself when the Canbberra got shot at..... The IAF should have known on the 27th of May itself that a Chopper is extremely vulnerable after loosing 2 fighters (Mig 27 & Mig 21) but no they operated a Mi-17 which was shot down on the next day i.e. the 28th of May!! Tell me what chances does a Chopper have when you have already lost 2 fighters the PREVIOUS day!!

You have to assess the enemies resources before you pit in your resources..... the damaged Canberra on the 11th of May should have made the IAF realise that they need fighters which can jam a Stinger instead they lost 3 more assets!! They should have called in the Mirages on the first day instead of throwing in a pure fighter/interceptor like Mig 21!! I wonder had it been an WAR with the entire PAF attacking how many assets we would have lost before IAF started seeing the obvious facts.

okay blah blah blah

Time frame will vary as long as IAF stops hankering for a 4 + Fighter that shall bust our resources and empty the purse when it comes to purchasing the FGFA or developing the AMCA!

sir, sanctioned squad by 2030 is 45 . If keeps 42 by 2027

Shoot Ajay Shukla... the above facts are available and undeniable!!

He is a Colonel... Pay the respect

operating costs are only $4000 bigger compared to the Su 30 MKI run ..!!!

You still dont understand!!! We paid through the nose for upgrading the Mirage coz it was the only fighter that saved IAF's reputation in the Kargil War and they are infatuated enough to shell out 3 Billion for upgrading 51 Mirages!! A price that could have got us more than 3 brand new squads of MKI!! The same drama will unfold when the Rafale's come in for upgrades...CNC is scratching its brains now since there are 61 EXTRAS that were not quoted and that shall make the LCC higher than the L2 for this deal!

IAF has two chance Go and buy the Qatari Mirages or Upgrade your Fleet to latest Standard. we went for the Upgrading

I had said a long time back that we do not have the expertise/where withalls of computing the prices and all the suppliers be it the Russinas (GOrky) or French (Scorepene) have used as a milking cow time and again!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

=SajeevJino;1007155]

'

oh sorry It's MiG 27 ...!!



After that how many Kills ..!!!


What kills are you talking about??? A Kill for an Air Force is an enemy Air Force's Jet!! Pounding ground forces is not called a kill!!
As I said, if PAF had taken an active part we would have lost a few more coz the IAF were slow to come up with appropriate war plans!!

okay blah blah blah

Sajeev, do you know how much your Blah, Blah, Blah costed??? Forget the Jets and the Chopper loss but do you remember the personnel who died in the chopper??? Now go and say your Blah Blah Blah to their families!! I am shocked that you take such a cavalier attitude towards the unnecessary sacrifice of those brave men!

You should know that each and every battle plan is scrutinised by your enemy and I am sure they know that IAF was found wanting operationally during the Kargil war... they dint react on time and with a proper method!

sir, sanctioned squad by 2030 is 45 . If keeps 42 by 2027

Well I keep my fingers crossed.... unless IAF starts backing Tejas Mk 1 & Mk 2 in numbers it will not reach the sanctioned strength!

He is a Colonel... Pay the respect

I respect the RETIRED Colonel Shukla but my reply was to your constant habit of throwing Col. Shukla's name for anything anyone says!!

IAF has two chance Go and buy the Qatari Mirages or Upgrade your Fleet to latest Standard. we went for the Upgrading

IAF is a spoilt brat that has got into a habit of throwing tantrums and getting away with the most expensive expenditures!

Look at the IN ... they are extremely short of Subs but have you heard any IN High Brass throwing his weight behind any Subs available in the market?? They backed and developed the ATV project which is the equallent of IAF backing an indigenous 5th Gen fighter...which they have not done till date with even the Tejas!!

 

[SajeevJino]

.
@Punya Pratap Totally worth it


Bye