Know Your 'Rafale'

SajeevJino

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I do not object to a strike airplane that can effectively pound enemy ground positions and replaces the Jags and Mig 27's but I do object to an obscene amount of money being demanded for it!

I even have proposed the Mig 35 as an option or am willing to propose anything that has a decent strike capability!
Sir., Money is the no problem in India when comes to Defence, The Forces always select the best and don't care about money. If two are best Lowest bidder won. You may look at the MRTT Program

Mig 35 failed to meet our requirements, that's why we didn't go for it
 

SajeevJino

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Read again please

below article from Moscow Times.... as a saying goes in our part of the country when two cats fight the monkey runs away with the bread
The same saying it quoted Indian Media

Indian newspaper Business Standard reported on Monday that India's defense ministry now considers the contract "essentially dead."
also Mr. Shulka loves the F 35 he can argue anything to bring the F 35. here most of them know about him
 

sgarg

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Sir., Money is the no problem in India when comes to Defence, The Forces always select the best and don't care about money. If two are best Lowest bidder won. You may look at the MRTT Program

Mig 35 failed to meet our requirements, that's why we didn't go for it
Interesting observation; thats why India's military needs deep reforms.

In a country where 50% population is on the financial brink, this attitude MUST go.

Money is VERY IMPORTANT.
 

sgarg

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People are not getting what I said way back in October. It IS NOT ABOUT Rafale.

It is about mismanaged MMRCA tender. The L1 has been declared without proper calculations. Now there is nobody to own the mistakes.

If it was some other country, heads would roll. In India the shameless are the ones keeping their heads high and honest hang their heads in shame.

There would be no Rafale for IAF. Better IAF makes peace with this fact.
 

Punya Pratap

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You know in all this MMRCA Drama I have only one thing to add among various other objections : Historically and Technically there never was any Medium Class Jets in IAF!!

I had asked it a while back to some of the most ardent Rafale fanboys .... operationally has IAF ever had a Medium Class Jet?? Answers a NO!!

Does the best of the best Air Forces in world with proven combat experience operate a Medium Class Jet be it the USAF or Israeli Air Force?? Answer again is a NO!!

The fundamental fact that people who propose the MMRCA forget is that these days every fighter is capable of Multi Role/Swing Role/Omni Role!!

I dont understand why IAF cannot see the writing on the wall..... the best and most advanced Air Force i.e. the USAF is going to have only 2 Class i.e. the F 35 (Light) & F 22 (Heavy)
 

Punya Pratap

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Read again please



The same saying it quoted Indian Media



also Mr. Shulka loves the F 35 he can argue anything to bring the F 35. here most of them know about him
I know Mr Shukla's past penchant for F 35 since I have followed the MMRCA for a while!! Having said that what do we understand if our own Defense Minister says Su 30 MKI is good and capable enough to take care of the MMRCA!!
 

karn

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You know in all this MMRCA Drama I have only one thing to add among various other objections : Historically and Technically there never was any Medium Class Jets in IAF!!

I had asked it a while back to some of the most ardent Rafale fanboys .... operationally has IAF ever had a Medium Class Jet?? Answers a NO!!

Does the best of the best Air Forces in world with proven combat experience operate a Medium Class Jet be it the USAF or Israeli Air Force?? Answer again is a NO!!

The fundamental fact that people who propose the MMRCA forget is that these days every fighter is capable of Multi Role/Swing Role/Omni Role!!

I dont understand why IAF cannot see the writing on the wall..... the best and most advanced Air Force i.e. the USAF is going to have only 2 Class i.e. the F 35 (Light) & F 22 (Heavy)
So what will the IAF use as a strike fighter ?
 

Ashok mourya

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Why would India buy the Rafael combat aircraft rejected by every other interested country—Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, and even the cash-rich but not particularly discriminating Saudi Arabia and Morocco?

Consider the monies at stake. Let's take the example of Brazil, our BRICS partner. For 36 Rafales the acquisition cost, according to Brazilian media, was $8.2 billion plus an additional $4 billion for short-period maintenance contracts, amounting to nearly $340 million per aircraft in this package and roughly $209 million as the price tag for a single Rafale without maintenance support. Brazil insisted on transfer of technology (ToT) and was told it had to pay a whole lot extra for it, as also for the weapons for its Rafales. But the Brazilian air force had doubts about the quality of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling the aircraft to switch quickly from air-to-air to air-to-ground mode in flight, and about the helmet-mounted heads-up-display. Too high a price and too many problems convinced the government of president Dilma Rousseff that the Rafale was not worth the trouble or the money and junked the deal, opting for the Swedish Gripen NG instead
.The prohibitive cost of the French aircraft supposedly made finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley apprehensive. He did the right thing, as is rumoured, of revising the order downwards from 126 aircraft to 80 or so Raffles. The IAF headquarters pre-preemptively acquiesced in the decision to save the deal. However, if this change was affected in the hope of proportionately reducing the cost, it will be belied. Because in contracts involving high-value combat aircraft, the size of the order does not much affect the unit price, the cost of spares and service support, and of ToT! This is evident from the rough estimates of the per aircraft cost to Brazil of $209 million for 36 Rafales compared with the $238 million for 126 of the same aircraft to India!
ideally to Su-30s, the indigenous Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence, Tejas Mk-II as MMRCA, and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth-generation fighter. Nor will the department of defence production officials disclose to Jaitley that the ToT provisions in arms contracts are a fraudulent farce because, while the foreign suppliers pocket billions of dollars, no core technologies, such as source codes (millions of lines of software) and flight control laws, are ever transferred. And that the local defense industry monopolized by defense public sector units (DPSUs) is incapable of absorbing and innovating even such technology as is, in fact, relayed to it because it only assembles aircraft from imported kits.
Terminating the Rafale deal will be disruptive but sending the message to the military, the DPSUs, the defence ministry bureaucracy, and foreign companies salivating for rich, one-sided, contracts that the Narendra Modi government is determined to make a new start and conduct defense business differently, is more important.
 

Compersion

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somehow i believe that the below news items has a connection with our Rafael deal:

France Could Deliver Mistral Warship To Russia By March After Ukraine Ceasefire Agreement, Report Says

Failure To Deliver Mistral Ships To Russia Could Cost French Taxpayers Millions A Month: Report

not only about the delivery being met by france and contract enforcement. but also about the relations between russia and france (a reason why it was a smooth fit for us). the americans will say they delivery ahead of schedule and their curtailment of options are not related to what others think and sometimes rightly.
 

sgarg

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somehow i believe that the below news items has a connection with our Rafael deal:

not only about the delivery being met by france and contract enforcement. but also about the relations between russia and france (a reason why it was a smooth fit for us). the americans will say they delivery ahead of schedule and their curtailment of options are not related to what others think and sometimes rightly.
There is NO connection to Mistral. The only problem is there are too big holes in MMRCA procurement files.

In fact some other procurement are also being scrutinized at this time.

I have already told the proper due diligence has not been followed in MMRCA tender. Rafale was declared L1 through manipulation.

Why would any BJP minister put his reputation on the line for misdeeds of UPA government??

There is no minister available for signing this deal in the current form and shape.

If IAF chief has the financial authority, he can go ahead on his own.
 

karn

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The chance of the Rafale deal going through is more than 50 % . The reason is that there is nothing in production that can replace the mig 27 and jaguar in the strike role . A new competition will take another 5 years to reach induction .
 

Punya Pratap

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The chance of the Rafale deal going through is more than 50 % . The reason is that there is nothing in production that can replace the mig 27 and jaguar in the strike role . A new competition will take another 5 years to reach induction .
Dear Karn, please note the pressing need right now is replacement for Mig 21 Bis/Bison..... Next online will be replacement for Mig 27 where as Jags are relatively new!

Tejas Mk 1/Mk 2 are capable enough of replacing the Mig 21's and if IAF supports Tejas the numbers could go upto 252 (14 Squadrons as replacement for Mig 21s)

We have about 86 Bahadurs which is the immediate and necessary replacement needed hence the suggestion for MMRCA !!

The IAF is playing a shrewd game..... not only they want to replace Mig 21 & Mig 27 with Rafale ....they are also willing to sacrifice FGFA for it!! This is something that I have severe objection to coz they want to kill Tejas and FGFA!!
 

karn

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Dear Karn, please note the pressing need right now is replacement for Mig 21 Bis/Bison..... Next online will be replacement for Mig 27 where as Jags are relatively new!

Tejas Mk 1/Mk 2 are capable enough of replacing the Mig 21's and if IAF supports Tejas the numbers could go upto 252 (14 Squadrons as replacement for Mig 21s)

We have about 86 Bahadurs which is the immediate and necessary replacement needed hence the suggestion for MMRCA !!

The IAF is playing a shrewd game..... not only they want to replace Mig 21 & Mig 27 with Rafale ....they are also willing to sacrifice FGFA for it!! This is something that I have severe objection to coz they want to kill Tejas and FGFA!!
So your answer is evil IAF .. With no solutions to problem of the imminent retirement of the mig 27 at all.
Oh wait you are going by Ajai Shuklas idiotic articles that is understandable. Please ignore such yellow journalism.
 
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Compersion

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There is NO connection to Mistral. The only problem is there are too big holes in MMRCA procurement files.

In fact some other procurement are also being scrutinized at this time.

I have already told the proper due diligence has not been followed in MMRCA tender. Rafale was declared L1 through manipulation.

Why would any BJP minister put his reputation on the line for misdeeds of UPA government??

There is no minister available for signing this deal in the current form and shape.

If IAF chief has the financial authority, he can go ahead on his own.
The connection would be for the sense that france and russia had relations that was amenable for india. thats why i mention the mistral (russia and france relations). we also needed to deal with USA reaction and our ambition to also get close with them thats why i feel france was a good choice out of all the choices available.

i am not looking it from the point of view of financial parameters only but also geo-political reasons.

also to get full TOT (if not above 75%) will not be cheap. like with Sukhoi MKI we can pay more if it brings benefits in the long-term. like in financial engineering there is a time decay and time element that has a subjective value sometimes and needs to be correlated with the effort and cost if one did it through indigestion and by our own (alone). there is also the character of the deal joining france and india together in the military and strategic space for long-term - we are not only buying a weapon system but a close relationship. i feel from geo-political and strategic reason the france choice was best. france needs to learn that we are also making them increase their stature it works both ways and needs to be win-win for all.
 
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grampiguy

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Dear Karn, please note the pressing need right now is replacement for Mig 21 Bis/Bison..... Next online will be replacement for Mig 27 where as Jags are relatively new!

Tejas Mk 1/Mk 2 are capable enough of replacing the Mig 21's and if IAF supports Tejas the numbers could go upto 252 (14 Squadrons as replacement for Mig 21s)

We have about 86 Bahadurs which is the immediate and necessary replacement needed hence the suggestion for MMRCA !!

The IAF is playing a shrewd game..... not only they want to replace Mig 21 & Mig 27 with Rafale ....they are also willing to sacrifice FGFA for it!! This is something that I have severe objection to coz they want to kill Tejas and FGFA!!
There could be a different approach. IAF knows that Rafale purchase needs to be pushed now because justification for their purchase is quite weak. In contrast, future purchase of FGFA or any stealth fighter will become an urgent necessity once PLA AF inducts its J-20 and J-31. Then, IAF will not even have to tell the political leadership why FGFA is necessary. So its a long range cunning planning, similar to Pilatus purchase.
 

akshay m

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[tweet]568333967474057216[/tweet]

@ersakthivel
,sir what will happen now,
why don't they just induct more LCA mk1
why are they still saying they need another mmrca?:frusty:


now which wild goose chase do they want t go on?????????
 
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ersakthivel

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[tweet]568333967474057216[/tweet]

@ersakthivel
,sir what will happen now,
why don't they just induct more LCA mk1
why are they still saying they need another mmrca?:frusty:


now which wild goose chase do they want t go on?????????
As our Defence Minister manohar parrikar has already outlined SU-30 MKI and tejas mk1+mk2 combo will do.

No need for despondence.
 
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TrueSpirit1

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While Rafale is undoubtedly a proven, versatile, highly evolved/matured, easy-to-fly & clearly the best 4+ Gen. platform available to IAF (for the role of defending Indians skies against a combined onslaught of Sino-Paki forces), it is late by a few years in 2015.

In the emerging politico-military situation: 1) MKI program's gel-ing with Make-in-India initiative, 2) free-falling rouble, 3) FGFA supposedly becoming a reality within a decade, 4) LCA MK2 on anvil within nearly the same timeframe 5) Mistral saga 6) Option of Super Sukhoi's & SU-35's, the case for Rafale is becoming weaker by the day.

Especially when the economics of Rafale acquisition has the potential to derail & potentially hamstring indigenous programs of LCA/AMCA & 5th-Gen FGFA stealth program, it is only wise to reconsider the whole deal.

Those who fly aircrafts (IAF) love off-the shelf, proven platforms like Rafale, while the group that prefers technology transfer, manufacturing jobs & strategic autonomy gives precedence to homegrown ventures, even if they are immature platforms. These two groups never like each other & are at each other's neck, which is again totally fair.
 
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