Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Read the Ares link. They say 12 billion dollars. Not 35

Please read my entire post, please, the various costs of the Rafale line etc would have ended up being close to 35 !!!

 

[smestarz]

Ha.........ha.
That is why Dassault doesn't want to take the responsability of the Rafales produced by HAL.


What will India do if the deal isn't signed ?
Buy more MKIs ? Tejas ? Focus on T-50?

Precisely, its common sense

 

[cobra commando]

MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions

French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters. A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to "the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault's competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them". A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015. Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to 'stick to the RFP'.
MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions

 

[smestarz]

It seems that either Dassault people did not know to read and understand the RFP (as they now claim that the clause where by Dassault should be responsible for all 126 planes was not there) else guess they did feel that the contract would be signed by the earlier "ponzi" govt and they could still have it their way all in the name of Defence.

 

[smestarz]

MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions

French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters. A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to "the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault's competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them". A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015. Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to 'stick to the RFP'.

Unnamed source?? hahaha, that is Dassault trying to keep Rafale still in play. The information from unnamed sources is not reliable till confirmed by official sources

 

[Punya Pratap]

It is hilarious to see the Indian and French Govt playing the ball game..... thrust and parry in diplomatic parlance!!

Point is that since both the Govt's are sniping in the media the picture does nt look rosy for the Rafale!!

Errr.... I do understand that my french friends here are trying to add to the melee by saying if Rafale deal does nt go through then we are stuck!!

 

[NavneethSharma]

I dont have much experience in this subject much.
But what i think is why to waste money in upgrading SU-30MKI or increasing its number of squadrons????
Total order for SU-30MKI is around 272 i think.
Still induction of all 272 hasnt completed and now itself goin to invest much on it for upgradation will increase the life cost of plane.
First of all it has many issues of engine,automatic ejection of seat etc etc.
Going for repair of all those may be needed than upgrade of it.
So instead of upgrading SU-30MKI to near next generation why not to go to 5th generation plane directly????
I mean the T-50.....
Induction of T-50 starts from this year for RAF.
Scrap Rafale and start negotiations with Russia.
I think atleast within this year if we complete negotiations from next year onwards we can start building them on our own in HAL.
Anyhow HAL loves to build planes which are on TOT, make them happy.
Take time in R&D of Pak fgfa and start building it.
I think then it resembles same like SU-30.
First India bought SU-30 later on upgraded them to MKI and modified the remaining order of 30 to MKI.


According to wiki T-50's cost is 50+million.
Even if we take it as 60 million we will get 100 T-50 for half of rafale deal.
Investing nearly half and getting next generation plane is not a bad idea i think.
Spending double the amount and getting just 26 planes in excess which is also of 4/4++ generation plane, it is not a good idea i believe.

 

[sgarg]

@NavneethSharma, India has manufacturing facilities for Su-30, LCA Tejas, and Jaguar. So the additions to air force will be these three planes for the short term.

The PAK-FA or FGFA program is in R&D phase. The plane has to complete its development phase before its production will be established in India. Most likely first planes will come from Russia; if concurrent manufacturing is not done locally. As we see not much progress in setting up production at HAL, the first plane to roll out from HAL can be set in 2022 at the earliest. The first plane from Russia can be obtained earliest in 2018. So FGFA cannot be used to ramp up numbers in the short term.

The most viable option is to increase LCA Tejas numbers for which production facilities have already been established. These production facilities can be ramped up.

Next in line is AMCA which may take up to 10 years to materialize. So this plane has no impact on IAF numbers in the foreseeable future.

 

[sgarg]

I see Su-30 production continuing at 15 per year which will add 150 Su-30 to 190+ already in inventory in the next 10 years. So we can see Su-30 numbers increasing beyond 272.
LCA ramp up is very likely. The current committed numbers for Mark-1 are 40 for IAF; 6 for Navy; and 16 two seat trainers. This totals 62 Mark-1 LCA Tejas aircraft. I have a feeling that the numbers for Navy will go up as Navy has different requirements compared to Air Force. The Mark-1 naval Tejas is good enough for Naval role. It makes perfect sense to ramp up LCA Tejas from 8 to 12 and then 16 per year; so that 80 aircrafts can be rolled out before Mark-2 development is complete.

 

[salute]

I see Su-30 production continuing at 15 per year

since when,

hal recently handed first su-30 to IAF,

if hal were producing su-30, 15 per year we would never have to worry about pakis getting edge over IAF,

even there maybe no need of mmrca.

 

[NavneethSharma]

@sgarg
PAK-Fa is Russian and FGFA is Indian version i think.
So i am talking about buying Russian version in place of Rafale.
Let Indian version FGFA take its own time.
But yes as u said setting up facility is a big challenge.

According to this news from 2016 they ll wtart rolling out the fighters.
And i m just telling all these just based on this news.

I m not allowed to post link.
just type this in google search tool.
U ll get first link of some site rbth.
"First series of T-50 aircrafts has entered the Russian airforce"
Search this and let me know wer i m goin wrong.

 

[Defencearts]

@sgarg
PAK-Fa is Russian and FGFA is Indian version i think.
So i am talking about buying Russian version in place of Rafale.
Let Indian version FGFA take its own time.
But yes as u said setting up facility is a big challenge.

According to this news from 2016 they ll wtart rolling out the fighters.
And i m just telling all these just based on this news.

I m not allowed to post link.
just type this in google search tool.
U ll get first link of some site rbth.
"First series of T-50 aircrafts has entered the Russian airforce"
Search this and let me know wer i m goin wrong.

But that is their plan, isn't it? (About getting PAK-FA instead of FGFA for now)

Rafale is something else.

I remember they said it was too expensive and time consuming to get a complete order with 2 seater FGFA. So they reduced the order for FGFA and getting the rest of the order with 1 seater PAK-FA.

 

[sgarg]

The MMRCA numbers will be filled by extra Su-30 and PAK-FA from Russia.
The Jaguar up-engining project will be approved.
The rest will be filled by LCA Tejas variants.

 

[Abhishek Shrivastava]

Does Anyone have Idea how much money had spent till date on MMRCA deal selection and finalization process. I hope it must be 100s of corors of Hard earned money of taxpayers.
Either go for it or drop it now.

 

[akshay m]

it seems that IAF has not yet bondoned its attempt to save the Rafale

 

[Punya Pratap]

Monday, 16 February 2015

Rafale proposal "effectively dead" as Dassault bid not cheapest



By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th Feb 15

Even as three Rafale fighters line up in Bengaluru for eye-popping aerobatics displays at the Aero India 2015 exhibition this week, senior ministry of defence (MoD) sources say the proposal to buy the French fighter is "effectively dead".

The reason: During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called "contract negotiation committee" (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault's bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.

Dassault had submitted a sketchy commercial bid, and when the CNC obtained details from the French company to arrive at the actual cost of the Rafale, the figures added up to significantly more than had originally been estimated.

This confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with "life cycle costing" (LCC). The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the MoD was awarding a contract based on LCC. This meant the winner would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

"An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated," says an official in the CNC.

Contacted for comments, the MoD has not responded.

The MoD has been backing away from the Rafale for two months now. On December 30, 2014, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted for the first time there were "complications" in the negotiations with Dassault, and outlined the IAF's alternatives.

"The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs", said Parrikar.

Last week the prime minister was pointedly distanced from the Rafale. On Saturday, an unusual MoD press release denied a newspaper report that the PM would fly in the Rafale during the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore this week.

"It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts", stated the MoD.

This is the second time the MoD has gone wrong in LCC evaluations. As Business Standard reported on Saturday ("Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer", February 14) an internal MoD noting last month sharply questioned the award of a contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft to Swiss company, Pilatus. There too, the LCC was calculated incorrectly.

Significantly, that noting, signed by AR Sule, the MoD's "Finance Manager (Air)", who handles financial aspects of military aircraft purchases, alerts the defence minister to issues with LCC evaluation in the MMRCA tender.

Sule writes: "The issue (with LCC calculations) may be brought to the notice of the RM (Raksha Mantri) as two high value cases of IAF based on LCC model are at CFA (competent financial authority) approval stage."

Dassault's impending loss, however, will not be the Eurofighter Typhoon's gain. Eurofighter GmbH has maintained an expensive presence in Delhi for the last three years, just in case Dassault's bid encounters trouble. But Parrikar has made it clear that procurement procedures do not permit the second-placed vendor, i.e. Eurofighter GmbH, to be awarded the contract in place of the "preferred vendor", i.e. Dassault.

Dassault was adjudged winner of the MMRCA tender through a two-stage process. In the first stage the IAF ruled out on April 27, 2011 four of the six competing fighters. Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper; Saab's Gripen NG, and the Russian MiG-35 were adjudged not to have met the IAF's performance requirements.

In the second stage, the commercial bids of the remaining two vendors --- Dassault's Rafale, and the Eurofighter Typhoon --- were compared on a "life cycle basis" to select the lower bidder. On January 31, 2012, the Rafale was chosen as the cheaper of the two options, a decision that the MoD is now walking away from.

A senior official familiar with the Rafale contract negotiations says, "Given the value of this contract, it was always going to be scrutinised in detail. No MoD official is willing to endorse a Rs 100,000 crore contract with Dassault when it seems as if Rafale is not even the cheapest option".

This means the IAF would have to look elsewhere for fighters to increase its depleted squadrons from the current 35 to the authorized 45 (with 18 fighters in each squadron).

Besides enlarging its Sukhoi-30MKI fleet from the 272 fighters HAL will build by 2018, the IAF could order more indigenous Tejas Mark I fighters, over and above the 40 now on order from HAL. The IAF could also intensify its co-development of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Sukhoi.

For Dassault, an Indian cancellation would be a serious blow. The French air force and navy, dogged by budget cutbacks, have reduced their planned Rafale numbers from 310 to just 180. On Friday, Egypt announced it would buy 24 Rafale fighters, becoming the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault.

"India will take longer than Egypt," said Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault on Friday.

 

[Punya Pratap]

A long time ago I was having another flaming row with a non absent member here regarding the Rafale deal on the economical merits ( I have reservations about the technical as well as all the other factors too) I had categorically said that India does not have a proper system of evaluation when it comes to calculating L1 based on life cycle costs (LCC) I had even then predicted that the valuation of the Rafale deal was flawed and it was not the L1 if you take the LCC in considerations.

Even this Egypt deal is French ruse .... The French banks will be financing a deal to a country whose economy is in doldrums. Any which way the French need to keep the production line alive by having a minimum output of 11 Rafales per year! Either the French banks have suddenly stumbled upon spare funds to finance the Egyptian deal or this is a ploy by the French to force India's hand!!

I would have thought that the Scorpene deal would have showed us about how French work! And on the side note I wonder what IAF's role is coz they are the ones who pushed the Pilatus deal with the ex COAS NAK Brown even shooting a letter to MOD saying the Pilatus is cheaper than anything HAL can give!! Secondly Rafale was been touted as the ONLY option by the very same IAF. We all know UPA Govt awarded NAK Brown with Ambassadorship and Pilatus got the deal even as now the details suggest it is anything but cheap (Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer | Business Standard News)

I have said it over and over... IAF needs to be told to think Swedishi and act Swedeshi and that is the only sure fire way of becoming strong!

 

[sgarg]

All Congressi deals are mired in corruption. MMRCA is not the only one. However corruption that involves foreign suppliers is very difficult to prosecute. The reason is obvious: Indian govt. authority does not run over foreign companies and foreign banks.

While Pilatus contract is under execution and will continue; Rafale is practically dead. The added problem is Govt will have to cancel the tender rather than call L2 for negotiations. Cancelling the tender is the only viable option.

Cancelling tenders is a bad precedent of course, and will impact future acquisitions. However there is no option. The Govt will have to place emphasis on local manufacturing which will definitely put heavy focus on LCA Tejas. IAF cannot sail against the wind too long. The Chiefs of DRDO and HAL are replaced. The next in line is IAF.

 

[mans.randhawa]

All Congressi deals are mired in corruption. MMRCA is not the only one. However corruption that involves foreign suppliers is very difficult to prosecute. The reason is obvious: Indian govt. authority does not run over foreign companies and foreign banks.

While Pilatus contract is under execution and will continue; Rafale is practically dead. The added problem is Govt will have to cancel the tender rather than call L2 for negotiations. Cancelling the tender is the only viable option.

Cancelling tenders is a bad precedent of course, and will impact future acquisitions. However there is no option. The Govt will have to place emphasis on local manufacturing which will definitely put heavy focus on LCA Tejas. IAF cannot sail against the wind too long. The Chiefs of DRDO and HAL are replaced. The next in line is IAF.

LCA is not even 1 tenth of a fighter jet compared to rafale . I would rather have one Rafale then 4 LCA as LCA is at best mig 21++.
And regarding other option being floated su 30 mki which is a mantainence nightmare for IAF and way too big plane with huge RCS still inferior to rafale.

 

[Compersion]

if we were to get out of rafael it would come at a cost.

can we stick with rafael and make it a win win situation.

obviously we will try and squeeze out the best deal possible and that is fair and the french would appreciate that as long as both sides come out winning.