Know Your 'Rafale'

[Lions Of Punjab]

Pm modi may fly in rafale at air show

PM Modi may fly in Rafale at air show | The Asian Age

Prime Minister Narendra Modi could be the first Indian Prime Minister to fly in a fighter jet. Hectic talks are under way between the ministry of defence, the Prime Minister's Office and makers of French Dassault Rafale, which is the major contender for the long-awaited Multi Medium Role Combat Aircraft deal worth over 82,000 crore.

With the presence of french minister for foreign affairs and international development Laurent Fabius in New Delhi, Dassault Rafale has offered Mr Modi a trip during the upcoming Aero India in Bengaluru, which will be inaugurated by the Prime Minister February 18, sources said.

"We are looking at the possibility of Mr Modi flying in a fighter jet. There are talks under way and it will be confirmed in a week," government sources said.

Aviation experts have been demanding that the aircraft deal should be signed at the earliest to ensure right training for Indian Air Force pilots. Rafale was chosen to fill the gap between the indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and Sukhoi Su-30MKI. The MMRCA deal has been delayed as the Indian government is worried about the escalating costs and some issues with the transfer of technology.

Dassault Rafale was chosen by the government and Indian Air Force after testing at least half-a-dozen fighter jets from the USA, Russia and Sweden.

In 2011, the government reduced the bidders to two fighters Euro fighter aircraft Typhoon and Dassault Rafale. In early 2012, the government announced that Dassault Rafale had won the contest because of its lower cost.

"But today, the cost has become a major hurdle in sealing the deal. Contract negotiations are still under way and the French government is keen to clinch the deal," an aviation expert said.

This is not the first time that a VIP is flying on a fighter jet. Industrialists like Ratan Tata and Bollywood stars like Shahid Kapoor have flown in the US-made F-16s during the previous Aero India events. In 2009, former Presidents of India A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and Pratibha Patil made history by flying in Sukhoi Su-30MKIs.

 

[Free Karma]

News is false.

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[rahulrds1]

self delete

 

[ersakthivel]

.

Rafale deal by March end, say sources​

Airbus team coming, Rafale deal by March end, say sources | Business Line


Deal should be sealed before this FY ..otherwise No Rafale

which "sources?"

 

[DivineHeretic]

lain Ruello @AlainRuello · 4h4 hours ago
#Rafale : Dassault ne prendra pas la responsabilité globale du contrat en Inde (Collet-Billon DGA)

Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the contract in India

His position roughly translates to the Director General (or General Director) for Armaments.

What we are looking at might be the first official signal from the French that the deal is near collapse. Strange it's not making the headlines.
@ersakthivel, @Kunal

 

[Gabriel92]

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares

 

[abingdonboy]

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares

Not good for the Rafale's prospects in India, not good at all.

 

[smestarz]

Not good for the Rafale's prospects in India, not good at all.

The prospects of Rafale were good during the earlier govt but the then Defence Minister did not want to get into any sort of scam (wonder what made him worry about it, unless there was something to it) After the General election and election of new Govt, Rafale was already on the way out, and that is why the French were sending team after team to convince the new govt that the deal is good for India. The cost touted to be about 15 Billion dollars would have ended up being US$ 35 billion plus considering how the contract was supposed to be made. India would be paying for the jigs and the line that would be set up in India by Reliance, thus India pays the Dassault for the line, which Dassault gives to its Indian partner Reliance. So what is reliance involvement? Just the land that they have procured near Hyderabad. Reliance has no experience in defence and specially planes and they have not many attempts to do so. Hence Dassault would be making more than twice the price for each plane and inspite of that such arrogance.
Dassault have nothing to worry about, they have their confirmed nos from France and they can build it. the problem is that the French MoD wants to cut costs and they cannot further cut the nos. So Dassault is producing for the French ADlA and France has to buy the minimum nos whether it likes or not, and the only way out is that IF THERE IS CUSTOMER FOR RAFALE and in which case France will tell Dassault to give the planes to the new customer and hence get out of its commitment. Thus its win win situation for French Govt and Dassault, but more stronger win for French govt. But as of now all the French govt hopes are on Egypt which seems to have been interested in Rafale.

 

[grampiguy]

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares

So it seems that the collapse of the deal has begun, officially. Negotiation positions are hardening, Deal with Egypt is being given prominence in media (paid or not) and the emphasis is on the fact that Dassault can survive even without the Indian order. Which is good in a way, for Indian negotiators in MoD, as they can now focus upon fifth generation fighters and compel Indian Air Force to relook at its aircraft acquisition future.

 

[ersakthivel]

lain Ruello @AlainRuello · 4h4 hours ago
#Rafale : Dassault ne prendra pas la responsabilité globale du contrat en Inde (Collet-Billon DGA)

Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the contract in India

His position roughly translates to the Director General (or General Director) for Armaments.

What we are looking at might be the first official signal from the French that the deal is near collapse. Strange it's not making the headlines.
@ersakthivel, @Kunal

The possibility of the deal being clinched will recede if this statement is true. It will be very hard for the new govt to renege on the dassault guarantee for HAL built clause set by the previous govt. Especially so since the Delhi election result puts BJP in a delicate position. DIluting the clause will lead to a bevy of corruption charges. After dilution of liability clause in N deal with US the govt wont let itself be exposed to these charges.

 

[halloweene]

So it seems that the collapse of the deal has begun, officially. Negotiation positions are hardening, Deal with Egypt is being given prominence in media (paid or not) and the emphasis is on the fact that Dassault can survive even without the Indian order. Which is good in a way, for Indian negotiators in MoD, as they can now focus upon fifth generation fighters and compel Indian Air Force to relook at its aircraft acquisition future.

Collet Billon also specified that liability clause was not in RFP.

Le Monde today declared that Al Sissi accepted the purchase monday night. And it is definitively NOT a "pro" Dassault diary so i wouldn't call them "paid"
L'Egypte approuve le contrat Rafale, officialisation prévue dans les jours à venir

 

[halloweene]

The prospects of Rafale were good during the earlier govt but the then Defence Minister did not want to get into any sort of scam (wonder what made him worry about it, unless there was something to it) After the General election and election of new Govt, Rafale was already on the way out, and that is why the French were sending team after team to convince the new govt that the deal is good for India. The cost touted to be about 15 Billion dollars would have ended up being US$ 35 billion plus considering how the contract was supposed to be made. India would be paying for the jigs and the line that would be set up in India by Reliance, thus India pays the Dassault for the line, which Dassault gives to its Indian partner Reliance. So what is reliance involvement? Just the land that they have procured near Hyderabad. Reliance has no experience in defence and specially planes and they have not many attempts to do so. Hence Dassault would be making more than twice the price for each plane and inspite of that such arrogance.
Dassault have nothing to worry about, they have their confirmed nos from France and they can build it. the problem is that the French MoD wants to cut costs and they cannot further cut the nos. So Dassault is producing for the French ADlA and France has to buy the minimum nos whether it likes or not, and the only way out is that IF THERE IS CUSTOMER FOR RAFALE and in which case France will tell Dassault to give the planes to the new customer and hence get out of its commitment. Thus its win win situation for French Govt and Dassault, but more stronger win for French govt. But as of now all the French govt hopes are on Egypt which seems to have been interested in Rafale.

Read the Ares link. They say 12 billion dollars. Not 35

 

[akshay m]

even @p2prada says that the deal most likely to be cancelled ,and knowing his past support that's something:shocked::thumb:

The Rafale deal will most likely be cancelled. The French side do not plan on adhering to the RFP and DPP clauses.

It is not official yet.

 

[grampiguy]

Collet Billon also specified that liability clause was not in RFP.

Le Monde today declared that Al Sissi accepted the purchase monday night. And it is definitively NOT a "pro" Dassault diary so i wouldn't call them "paid"
L'Egypte approuve le contrat Rafale, officialisation prévue dans les jours à venir

It may not be in the Le Monde but the language of other publications definitely put them in doubt. Nevertheless, that's not the point of discussion.

It is visible now that both parties are gradually moving out of the negotiating process and the Rafale deal, for all practically purposes, is not going to happen. Dassault would not agree to the quality control over HAL produced Rafales as these clauses were not in the RFP but push for Rafale F3R induction which was also not in the RFP. It can also double the contract value which was also not in the RFP. Even though, it was the cost that became the final deciding factor between Rafale and Eurofighter so Dassault can use or abuse RFP as and when it can. India would not let the quality control go away because one, its a huge amount of money (especially foreign exchange) going down the French drain without any ToT or substantial knowledge gain. In addition, French track record from Scorpene submarine deal doesn't inspire confidence in French negotiation practices, which Dassault has so far proved to be correct. Finally, Rafale deal had become possible because of Nicholas Sarkozy's personal guarantee that he will ensure all ToT, in the face of the rejection of American fighters. Hollande doesn't have enough guts to carry the deal, especially when he is so horribly unpopular in his own country.

So bye bye Rafale. India can now focus on Sukhoi T-50 and AMCA and be happy, especially when Americans have decided to help it through DTTI.

 

[karn]

Collet Billon also specified that liability clause was not in RFP.

Le Monde today declared that Al Sissi accepted the purchase monday night. And it is definitively NOT a "pro" Dassault diary so i wouldn't call them "paid"
L'Egypte approuve le contrat Rafale, officialisation prévue dans les jours à venir

Press Information Bureau English Releases

 

[sgarg]

It was I who first posted the possibility of Rafale deal cancellation on this message board and the reasons as well.

I ran into huge resistance here and now everybody singing the same tune.

 

[Gabriel92]

Ha.........ha.
That is why Dassault doesn't want to take the responsability of the Rafales produced by HAL.

As per the initial plans, the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 "fly-away" aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer's track record, however, suggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.

ANALYSIS: India's fighters battle for relevance - 2/9/2015 - Flight Global

What will India do if the deal isn't signed ?
Buy more MKIs ? Tejas ? Focus on T-50?

 

[Punya Pratap]

even @p2prada says that the deal most likely to be cancelled ,and knowing his past support that's something:shocked::thumb:

@akshay m where and when did he say that ??

 

[Punya Pratap]

The logic behind holding Dassault responsible for delivery scheduling of HAL made Rafale is the experience of MoD on delays caused by deliveries of critical components on projects such as MKI's (I Know Russia is to be blamed) and even Scorpene saga (French !!) The second logic is that it shall ensure complete ToT as promised since Dassault is liable to face actions if the Rafale deliveries by HAL are held up due to non transfer of ToT or untimely transfer of ToT.

Till date every OEM which has promised ToT has taken us for a ride... be it the T 90 tanks or for this down the drain Rafale deal. Dassault never intended to transfer ToT and the official statement Mr Collet-Billon has put the unsaid in plain sight!!

I have had huge arguments against MMRCA and had flaming rows with a lot many posters who are nt seen here these days but I dont wish to say "I told you so" All I wish to say again is that we will be strong only when we are self reliant....no one is going to give us the critical techs that took billions of dollars and decades to develop !!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

By the time these fighter get into IAF, They would need up gradation to match 5th generation capabilities ..

If this deal was to be done, It was a long time back, Now its all senseless utter expensive purchase ..

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The same amount can be useful for National development of Arms such as AMCA and tejas MK2 which will be enhancing our own scientific studies and knowledge about Aircraft design and manufacturing ..

Instead of Rafale, Its the AMCA which now suits future needs and Tejas MK2 in near future needs ..