Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

okay back from starting, Do you think i'm a idiot to explain again and again a simple thing. Read up the older posts they clearly mentioned the price

There is nothing to read "from the posts". $120M is the price that Dassault is asking now for basic plane. The weapons, TOT, support is extra.

You will know from official sources in a few months time.

 

[SajeevJino]

There is nothing to read "from the posts". $120M is the price that Dassault is asking now for basic plane. The weapons, TOT, support is extra.

You will know from official sources in a few months time.

Post a good source from either MoD or Dassault

 

[smestarz]

What Dassault had quoted in RFP is no longer valid as you know. it seems that dassault now wants to sell F3R which are twice the cost of planes offered in RFP.

Now recently one deal was signed with Egypt, for about US$ 5.6 billion for a FREMM frigate and 26 Rafales (which are F3R as I understand) now the cost of FREMM as per some source is about US$ 500 million, let us assume that the FREMM is say US$ 1 billion
then the cost of 26 Rafale will be 4.6 billion / 26 US$ 176 million, But however if FREMM cost is as reported US$ 500 million then its about US$ 196 million per plane, you can do the researching and see for yourself.

 

[sgarg]

Post a good source from either MoD or Dassault

Neither MOD nor Dassault will tell you detail of negotiations. Some detail are out through opinion pieces in papers. That is about what you will get at this time.

The Rafale is basically stuck at pricing. This has been so for past several months.

 

[grampiguy]

Our Special forces operating Deep Behind the Enemy lines pinned by Tanks and enemy's have SHORAD's, GoI Need to recapture it's lost territory somewhere in Aksai sin or Arunachal,

suddenly they too scramble fighters and helicopters to provide support, so IAF need a Good fighter to do the Mission

another,

Indian Army need Air support the enemies are hiding behind fortified Buildings, so they need a surgical STRIKE on the area, mean time they moving too, so they need to update the fighter about enemy positions.

these are all for CAS missions , you wanna more

I think (!!!) India also has nuclear weapons and lots of cruise and ballistic missiles. I maybe wrong but pray tell me, are these going to be sitting idle while our special forces are stuck behind enemy lines? I thought they were to be used in the first phase of operations to blind the enemy. Precision attack is what India bought them for so won't they be used? Are we a nuclear weapon state yet??

 

[halloweene]

What Dassault had quoted in RFP is no longer valid as you know. it seems that dassault now wants to sell F3R which are twice the cost of planes offered in RFP.

Now recently one deal was signed with Egypt, for about US$ 5.6 billion for a FREMM frigate and 26 Rafales (which are F3R as I understand) now the cost of FREMM as per some source is about US$ 500 million, let us assume that the FREMM is say US$ 1 billion
then the cost of 26 Rafale will be 4.6 billion / 26 US$ 176 million, But however if FREMM cost is as reported US$ 500 million then its about US$ 196 million per plane, you can do the researching and see for yourself.

The RAfale are not F3R as part of them will be withdrawn from french procurement planes within 6 months. And you forget there was a qhole set of weapons in the deal : Torpedoes, Aster, Scalp, AASM, Mica...
Btw Collet Billon etc. Officially denied F3-R standard. It will be something like F3-I with the modifications India asked for.

 

[SajeevJino]

I think (!!!) India also has nuclear weapons and lots of cruise and ballistic missiles. I maybe wrong but pray tell me, are these going to be sitting idle while our special forces are stuck behind enemy lines? I thought they were to be used in the first phase of operations to blind the enemy. Precision attack is what India bought them for so won't they be used? Are we a nuclear weapon state yet??

I'm saying about limited Conflicts, not a full fledged war. did our Cabinet can risk a Nuclear war if our forces pinned near Enemy Border.

they simply say pull back your Positions and give, leave alone them we have SAARC we have UN to clear the dispute

 

[SajeevJino]

What Dassault had quoted in RFP is no longer valid as you know. it seems that dassault now wants to sell F3R which are twice the cost of planes offered in RFP.

Do you have the RFP. did you read it

 

[karn]

Jaguar and Mirage 2000 in IAF will carry on till 2035 with upgrades. So, IAF should start looking at a platform to replace them in that period and AMCA fits well into it. About F-15 aircraft, wasn't it outsmarted by Su-27/30 series, several times in a row in last decade? Is it the same aircraft from Red Flag which created a ruckus in US Congress?

The mirage is an optimum fighter interceptor shoehorning it into the strike role is suboptimal especially considering the retirement of the mig 21 .
The F15s are loved in the US the have a 100 something kills with no losses . In red flag Our sukhois got beaten ...badly the the USAF .
It was only in cope India that the IAF had the upper hand .
It does not matter how you spin it if the Rafale deal in cancelled the alternative is another competition . Sure we can ask the Russian s to make a SU 30 "E" but it would be just one of the competitors .

 

[grampiguy]

The mirage is an optimum fighter interceptor shoehorning it into the strike role is suboptimal especially considering the retirement of the mig 21 .
The F15s are loved in the US the have a 100 something kills with no losses . In red flag Our sukhois got beaten ...badly the the USAF .
It was only in cope India that the IAF had the upper hand .
It does not matter how you spin it if the Rafale deal in cancelled the alternative is another competition . Sure we can ask the Russian s to make a SU 30 "E" but it would be just one of the competitors .

Look, being honest, the cancellation of the deal is something which makes me uncomfortable as well. IAF has invested 7-8 years in this deal. It cannot have heaps of Sukhoi-30MKIs and FGFA only which will make it top heavy with many air superiority aircraft but small FGA/LWF inventory. I would love to have at least 10 squadrons of this aircraft in MMRCA role in the IAF. But Dassault has made this contract a bottomless pit. The original contract was for everything costing near-about USD $15 billion. This one has now crossed USD $25-30 billion amount, just for the aircraft. Then, you will have to buy all weapons, missiles, and other support items from them and agree for MLUs several time in its lifetime. So we are looking at USD $40 -50 billion easily. What does India get in return, not even ToT for making an engine or AESA radar or SPECTRA or aerostructure ! There is a spin in everything that Dassault has promised. And I can tell you one thing on which you can keep arguing for a long time. No bureaucrat worth his salt will be able to sign on this deal without some CONCRETE deliverables.

Finally, I am sick of this ongoing French spin everywhere. Its like bunch of morons trying to set India's foreign policy and defence policy as if India was lacking it all these years and only by buying Rafale it will achieve everything overnight. So much GYAN coming from those who could not even stand before guerrillas in tiny Vietnam and bent over before Germans in World War II without any fight !!!! This snobbery is quite off putting.

 

[grampiguy]

The RAfale are not F3R as part of them will be withdrawn from french procurement planes within 6 months. And you forget there was a qhole set of weapons in the deal : Torpedoes, Aster, Scalp, AASM, Mica...
Btw Collet Billon etc. Officially denied F3-R standard. It will be something like F3-I with the modifications India asked for.

Honestly, I don't care whether it is Rafale F3R or F 3000RRRR, whichever you guys are promising to deliver. I am wondering whether whatever is produced in Indian HAL factory, will you guarantee that it will be flightworthy? Will it FLY? Or there is a spin even in this capability?

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Any modified Su 30 will need deep upgrades to be used as a strike fighter . There is a large difference between Su 30 and Su 34 which is the new dedicated strike aircraft for the VVS ,
Any negotiation for this upgraded Su 30 will take time (the modifications to the airframe and changes to avionics will be significant). There is a plan B you just have to ask the airfore to eat another delay.

ANyway the government will have the money after the budget it will become clear whether the government was stalling for want of money or what.

Su-34, if you have analyzed it, is an overkill for our needs. Pakis can be sorted out without that & IAF can never venture that deep into PRC. I have personally been a fan of Rafale since Charles de Gaul was first floated & I also like Su-34's for Ground Strike. But, Tu-22M3 would have made more sense for SFC, again even that if redundant now.

IAF chiefs may harp upon evolving into a strategic exo-atmospheric autonomous force, but actually they do not intend or have the wherewithal to venture beyond Air-Superiority over local skies & occasional ground support for the Army (if at all). Even for local ground support, IA would soon enough own Apache. The turf-war between IA-IAF is never going to cease one bit.

Needless to say, IAF has birds that keep flying out of sky for reasons they cannot do anything about. And, this needs no further elaboration.

For remediation of depleting squadron strength, LCA MK2, Super-Su's, FGFA & AMCA should be the priority. Everything else is an avoidable distraction now. The reason is simple: IAF should have acquired Rafale several years ago, when it was initially offered to us.

Given the invisible birds our adversary in the North is flying, Rafale is a case of too-little, too late. Super-Su's would do the hitting job & LCA MK2 would handle the economics aspect.

IAF would do better if imbibes a safety culture & handles unacceptable performance of its Maintenance wing.

 

[SajeevJino]

. This one has now crossed USD $25-30 billion amount, just for the aircraft. Then, you will have to buy all weapons, missiles, and other support items from them and agree for MLUs several time in its lifetime. So we are looking at USD $40 -50 billion easily. What does India get in return, not even ToT for making an engine or AESA radar or SPECTRA or aerostructure

well observation good..

by the end of March it will whooping some $100 billions .. yes

 

[SajeevJino]

Su-34, if you have analyzed it, is an overkill for our needs. Pakis can be sorted out without that & IAF can never venture that deep into PRC. I have personally been a fan of Rafale since Charles de Gaul was first floated & I also like Su-34's for Ground Strike. But, Tu-22M3 would have made more sense for SFC, again even that if redundant now.

The Su 34 is nothing but a Light Bomber with high speed with impressive mission profile. having longer range and all, but we don't require it since we are not going to bomb anywhere either in PRC or TTP controlled Bakistan. also Tu 22 M3 is also a good Strike Bomber. Having damn Cruise missiles with longer range also a bomb truck. A good addition for Maritime strike missions. since MCTR will not allow foreign missiles with nuke warheads.

IAF chiefs may harp upon evolving into a strategic exo-atmospheric autonomous force, but actually they do not intend or have the wherewithal to venture beyond Air-Superiority over local skies & occasional ground support for the Army (if at all). Even for local ground support, IA would soon enough own Apache. The turf-war between IA-IAF is never going to cease one bit.

Apache is a Good platform to provide CAS to the Army. but Range and endurance also favors to Rafale more range more payload and More Missiles. Apache is a good platform top provide CAS in sub conventional warfare

Needless to say, IAF has birds that keep flying out of sky for reasons they cannot do anything about. And, this needs no further elaboration.

do you think IAF has enough birds. to perform Missions.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Some of the Indian Su-30 MKI are having major upgrades and 40 of them have been now upgraded as Super Sukhoi class, these planes are now able to Carry Air launched Brahmos A. If ability to carry and fire Brahmos A is not a strike capability then what is?
Also it would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos M (the lighter and smaller air launched missile)

Where did you get this ? Only 2 Su-'s have been modified for carrying Brahmos.

40 would be modified later.

& Not a single Su has been converted to Super Su-standard.

Just 1 MKI has been upgraded from HAL factory recently & that is not Super Su-standard. Clearly, you are a time-traveller.

Only partially correct fact in your post is: Upgraded Su-30's would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos-M.

It would be 3 Brahmos at the maximum. Not at least 3 Brahmos.

It is almost universally acknowledged that Rafale as of now is vastly superior to Su-30 MKI (in its current form), when it comes to dedicated-strike or omni-role ( & it is just not marketing twist).

 

[SajeevJino]

Where did you get this ? Only 2 Su-'s have been modified for carrying Brahmos.

40 would be modified later.

& Not a single Su has been converted to Super Su-standard.

Just 1 MKI has been upgraded from HAL factory recently & that is not Super Su-standard. Clearly, you are a time-traveller.

Only partially correct fact in your post is: Upgraded Su-30's would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos-M.

It would be 3 Brahmos at the maximum. Not at least 3 Brahmos.

It is almost universally acknowledged that Rafale as of now is vastly superior to Su-30 MKI (in its current form), when it comes to dedicated-strike or omni-role ( & it is just not marketing twist).

some confusions about the Brahmos series

The BrahMos-A, a modified version of the Indo-Russian supersonic missile configured for air-to-ground delivery, will be test-fired for the first time in March this year from an Indian Air Force Su-30MKI.

ie, Brahmos A, the sukhoi can carry only one Brahmos A missile

another project Brahmos M or mini, the Sukhoi, MiG 29 and the Rafale can carry three missiles

 

[TrueSpirit1]

some confusions about the Brahmos series

ie, Brahmos A, the sukhoi can carry only one Brahmos A missile

another project Brahmos M or mini, the Sukhoi, MiG 29 and the Rafale can carry three missiles

Omit Mig 29 & Rafale from this list. It would only be Su-30's for now. No other programs exist now.

 

[smestarz]

Did you forget about the 80 something Mig 27s that will be retired in 2018 ? The number of Jaguars currently are not even close to the number the airforce needs and there is no way to get more Jaguars in any case . How long will the Jaguars themselves stick around ?

It is only while using a terrain hugging profile that an aircraft can avoid the early warning systems that the airdefence depends on .
. It was for this reason that the multinational coalition air-tasking authorities authorised the widespread use of RAF Tornado IDS as low-level interdictors against Iraq. And the IDF-AF's F-15Is too have always employed terrain-hugging flight-profiles whenever they have had to attack targets deep inside Syria. So why & how should the IAF be an exception . The IAF has a need for such strike aircraft it is their prerogative to define their force structure . Not me or you with our half baked knowledge.
If your argument is Brahmos A for the rest , you really have no right to complain about cost of the rafale .

When war breaks out, strikes are important but more important is air dominance, once there is complete air dominance, there is no real need for terrain hugging plane.

Jaguars and MiG-27 are way outdated, Jaguars can handle strikes but the battlefield is changing and the way fighting is done is changing too.
I would not be able to explain my concept to you, but few details remain.

If you understand the basic of combat, armies use to shell each other, a bomber in a way is extended range shell, and now Missles are extended ranged bombs of a plane. In my view, Su-30 MKI + Brahmos A and later Brahmos M versions can do the jobs of deep strike as required and that is what its developed for. Brahmos is supersonic cruise missle. Further there is more work being done on Subsonic Terrrain hugging Nirbhay missile for air force.

Do you know if we take Rafale, the entire package of Rafale (with TOT) + the weapons that it would require would be crossing US$ 40 billion by my estimate, It makes better sense to develop AMCA and also go for the FGFA/PAKFA which are way better than Rafale.

Buying an older 4th Gen plane is not the answer to our problem, what we end up doing is purchase a plane at the end of its development life and hence in half a decade it would be like Mirage 2000 which not be capable to handle the air planes of our neighbours

So buying rafale is waste of our time, resources and also in a way would kill of our ability to develop our own. Remember, we developed our own missiles after we were denied critical technology. So if we have a self imposed ban on import of products we shall develop our own. but the moment there are options, our imported air force is going to go for options only.

BTW, strike missions flow are far less than air superiority missions.

BTW, the Russian Ambassador did convey that Chinese Su-30 will shoot down Rafale like flies, further what you say is "universally know" is just the crap spread by Rafale fan boys. trying to pi*p the plane.

When you say universally acknowledged. are you aware that Su-30 MKI will be able to detect Rafale first and able to target using its long range missiles well before the Su-30 MKI is even in the range of Rafale missiles? Please do some more reasearch then do come up with such statements.

Further during Red Flag excercises in USA. the French Rafale were chasing Indian Su-30 MKI trying to get more information and details of electronic emissions. So based as per that Dassault or France in that matter are not aware of the capability of the avionics of Su-30 MKI, so what are you basing your "universal facts" on?

Further, if it was as you said, why did IAF not allow Su-30 MKI be part of the RFP? If Rafale was so good and Su-30 MKI was inferior, it would have gone out in the first round. Are you going to say that if Su-30MKI went out at the first round, it would undermine our indian defence? That is already being done by our IAF top brass.

 

[karn]

Look, being honest, the cancellation of the deal is something which makes me uncomfortable as well. IAF has invested 7-8 years in this deal. It cannot have heaps of Sukhoi-30MKIs and FGFA only which will make it top heavy with many air superiority aircraft but small FGA/LWF inventory. I would love to have at least 10 squadrons of this aircraft in MMRCA role in the IAF. But Dassault has made this contract a bottomless pit. The original contract was for everything costing near-about USD $15 billion. This one has now crossed USD $25-30 billion amount, just for the aircraft. Then, you will have to buy all weapons, missiles, and other support items from them and agree for MLUs several time in its lifetime. So we are looking at USD $40 -50 billion easily. What does India get in return, not even ToT for making an engine or AESA radar or SPECTRA or aerostructure ! There is a spin in everything that Dassault has promised. And I can tell you one thing on which you can keep arguing for a long time. No bureaucrat worth his salt will be able to sign on this deal without some CONCRETE deliverables.

Finally, I am sick of this ongoing French spin everywhere. Its like bunch of morons trying to set India's foreign policy and defence policy as if India was lacking it all these years and only by buying Rafale it will achieve everything overnight. So much GYAN coming from those who could not even stand before guerrillas in tiny Vietnam and bent over before Germans in World War II without any fight !!!! This snobbery is quite off putting.

I too have the ideal force structure for the IAF in my mind but reality does not co operate with my ideas . For the rest I wish there was some hypothetical 2 engine medium fighter design that was in the design phase along with tejas . The french claim that the cost of the contract has not increased at all an the total cost remains at 13billion USD . We will know the cost of the contract when Parrikar signs off on it . .
I am careful of insulting french military history read up on Verdun . Do not forget all the help the french have given us from rocket engines to most the avionics for out tanks and aircraft.

Su-34, if you have analyzed it, is an overkill for our needs. Pakis can be sorted out without that & IAF can never venture that deep into PRC. I have personally been a fan of Rafale since Charles de Gaul was first floated & I also like Su-34's for Ground Strike. But, Tu-22M3 would have made more sense for SFC, again even that if redundant now.

IAF chiefs may harp upon evolving into a strategic exo-atmospheric autonomous force, but actually they do not intend or have the wherewithal to venture beyond Air-Superiority over local skies & occasional ground support for the Army (if at all). Even for local ground support, IA would soon enough own Apache. The turf-war between IA-IAF is never going to cease one bit.

Needless to say, IAF has birds that keep flying out of sky for reasons they cannot do anything about. And, this needs no further elaboration.

For remediation of depleting squadron strength, LCA MK2, Super-Su's, FGFA & AMCA should be the priority. Everything else is an avoidable distraction now. The reason is simple: IAF should have acquired Rafale several years ago, when it was initially offered to us.

Given the invisible birds our adversary in the North is flying, Rafale is a case of too-little, too late. Super-Su's would do the hitting job & LCA MK2 would handle the economics aspect.

IAF would do better if imbibes a safety culture & handles unacceptable performance of its Maintenance wing.

Tu 22 is a overkill. The airforce already deemed it maintenance intensive and fuel hungry . But an updated version of it can be made for the navy then we would not need aircraft carriers .

 

[SajeevJino]

Omit Mig 29 & Rafale from this list. It would only be Su-30's for now. No other programs exist now.

Brahmos M program exists, and will be there right on time

Work is also underway on a modified lighter and smaller-diameter version of the BrahMos for deployment on the Indian navy's MiG-29K and, potentially, the Dassault Rafale, as part of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft acquisition, which is still under negotiation.

India Unveils Ambitious BrahMos Missile Expansion Plan | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Smaller version of BrahMos missile being developed for IAF - Economic Times

A new version of the missile is to be fitted on the frontline aircraft of Air Force including Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000 and the future inductions such as the 126 multirole combat aircraft, BrahMos officials said on Tuesday.

Smaller version of BrahMos missile being developed for IAF | Zee News