Know Your 'Rafale'

[karn]

When war breaks out, strikes are important but more important is air dominance, once there is complete air dominance, there is no real need for terrain hugging plane.

Jaguars and MiG-27 are way outdated, Jaguars can handle strikes but the battlefield is changing and the way fighting is done is changing too.
I would not be able to explain my concept to you, but few details remain.

If you understand the basic of combat, armies use to shell each other, a bomber in a way is extended range shell, and now Missles are extended ranged bombs of a plane. In my view, Su-30 MKI + Brahmos A and later Brahmos M versions can do the jobs of deep strike as required and that is what its developed for. Brahmos is supersonic cruise missle. Further there is more work being done on Subsonic Terrrain hugging Nirbhay missile for air force.

Do you know if we take Rafale, the entire package of Rafale (with TOT) + the weapons that it would require would be crossing US$ 40 billion by my estimate, It makes better sense to develop AMCA and also go for the FGFA/PAKFA which are way better than Rafale.

Buying an older 4th Gen plane is not the answer to our problem, what we end up doing is purchase a plane at the end of its development life and hence in half a decade it would be like Mirage 2000 which not be capable to handle the air planes of our neighbours

So buying rafale is waste of our time, resources and also in a way would kill of our ability to develop our own. Remember, we developed our own missiles after we were denied critical technology. So if we have a self imposed ban on import of products we shall develop our own. but the moment there are options, our imported air force is going to go for options only.

BTW, strike missions flow are far less than air superiority missions.

BTW, the Russian Ambassador did convey that Chinese Su-30 will shoot down Rafale like flies, further what you say is "universally know" is just the crap spread by Rafale fan boys. trying to pi*p the plane.

When you say universally acknowledged. are you aware that Su-30 MKI will be able to detect Rafale first and able to target using its long range missiles well before the Su-30 MKI is even in the range of Rafale missiles? Please do some more reasearch then do come up with such statements.

Further during Red Flag excercises in USA. the French Rafale were chasing Indian Su-30 MKI trying to get more information and details of electronic emissions. So based as per that Dassault or France in that matter are not aware of the capability of the avionics of Su-30 MKI, so what are you basing your "universal facts" on?

Further, if it was as you said, why did IAF not allow Su-30 MKI be part of the RFP? If Rafale was so good and Su-30 MKI was inferior, it would have gone out in the first round. Are you going to say that if Su-30MKI went out at the first round, it would undermine our indian defence? That is already being done by our IAF top brass.

All of this is just your opinion and you are entitled to it nobody is obliged to agree with you.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Tu 22 is a overkill. The airforce already deemed it maintenance intensive and fuel hungry . But an updated version of it can be made for the navy then we would not need aircraft carriers .

That's what I said. It is redundant. Anyway, it made sense especially for SFC.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Brahmos M program exists, and will be there right on time

And exactly who said it does not exist ?

Smaller version of BrahMos missile being developed for IAF | Zee News

The only project underway is Su30 modification for Brahmos. No similar program for Mig or Rafale. Is it too complicated to understand ?

 

[SajeevJino]

And exactly who said it does not exist ?
The only project underway is Su30 modification for Brahmos. No similar program for Mig or Rafale. Is it too complicated to understand ?

I'm taking about

Work is also underway on a modified lighter and smaller-diameter version of the BrahMos for deployment on the Indian navy's MiG-29K and, potentially, the Dassault Rafale

not a airframe modifications in Mig's or Rafale

 

[tejas warrior]

$ 20-40 billion is a complete waste of money on Rafale which is going to be outdated when China/Paki stats inducting Fifth Generation fighters.
Also, India is not going to attack any country. It only needs to defend it, and there Air Superiority is most important.

Mirag-2000 would not have been able to operate safely if they were not provided cover with Mig-29 from F-16s. I am 100% sure, even with investment of $10, Mig29s & SuMKI can do all land support jobs.

Rest of money can be utilize for LCA/AMCA and UAVa development.

So, simply not worth it.

 

[SajeevJino]

$ 20-40 billion is a complete waste of money on Rafale which is going to be outdated when China/Paki stats inducting Fifth Generation fighters.
Also, India is not going to attack any country. It only needs to defend it, and there Air Superiority is most important.

Mirag-2000 would not have been able to operate safely if they were not provided cover with Mig-29 from F-16s. I am 100% sure, even with investment of $10, Mig29s & SuMKI can do all land support jobs.

Rest of money can be utilize for LCA/AMCA and UAVa development.

So, simply not worth it.

welcome to the MMRCA Thread

 

[sgarg]

The french claim that the cost of the contract has not increased at all an the total cost remains at 13billion USD.
Do not forget all the help the french have given us from rocket engines to most the avionics for out tanks and aircraft.

I do not think Rafale was declared L1 at 13 billion USD.
The HAL portion debate is actually about prices rather than "responsibility". If we pay the French what they are asking for, they will happily take responsibility for the HAL part.

No government source has talked against the French beyond the contract itself. The issue of damaging the bilateral relationship etc. is too far-fetched.
And if bilateral relationship is so dependent on a military contract, then there is very serious problem with the relationship.

 

[SajeevJino]

I do not think Rafale was declared L1 at 13 billion USD.

It's a Fact that IAF said Rafale is the L 1

 

[sgarg]

India's biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

dna exclusive: 100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

 

[sgarg]

The above linked news item is from 26 January, 2014; when UPA was in power.

The price appreciation was the reason UPA could not sign the contract despite declaring Rafale L1.

It is illogical for NDA government to sign the contract if UPA could not do it.

This is what I have been saying, DM will not sign the contract unless Dassault can supply based on tender terms; which Dassault does not agree now.

There is NO ARGUMENT here. Rafale deal is dead.

 

[karn]

I do not think Rafale was declared L1 at 13 billion USD.
The HAL portion debate is actually about prices rather than "responsibility". If we pay the French what they are asking for, they will happily take responsibility for the HAL part.

No government source has talked against the French beyond the contract itself. The issue of damaging the bilateral relationship etc. is too far-fetched.
And if bilateral relationship is so dependent on a military contract, then there is very serious problem with the relationship.

I think I linked the "responsibility" clause in the RFP . It states that dassault is fully responsible where it is found to be their fault . The second clause is that the Rafale built by HAL has to match the performance of the Rafales built by Dassault themselves ... this is a responsibility of Dassault.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca-283.html
The question of cost is itself strange .. how much does the entire SU 30 infrastructure cost ? How much was spent on spares and maintenance or setting up the production facility the overhaul facility ? ... actually more money now needs to shelled out to create more warehouses to buy and stock the spares to increase the SU 30 availability rates.. The same goes for tejas

dna exclusive: 100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
This link is the usual filled with the same " un named "sources with nothing official . Today the Euro has fallen to the same rate as 3 years ago there should be little or no price escalation .
I don't care either way for the rafale but I think we should wait for the actual cost to come out of the RMs mouth .. Such costs are of public record .. we can see how much the CCS approves every month or so.

 

[smestarz]

All of this is just your opinion and you are entitled to it nobody is obliged to agree with you.

YES, everyone should have their opinion and nobody is obliged to agree with me, and nobody is obliged to agree with your opinion too

 

[smestarz]

The above linked news item is from 26 January, 2014; when UPA was in power.

The price appreciation was the reason UPA could not sign the contract despite declaring Rafale L1.

It is illogical for NDA government to sign the contract if UPA could not do it.

This is what I have been saying, DM will not sign the contract unless Dassault can supply based on tender terms; which Dassault does not agree now.

There is NO ARGUMENT here. Rafale deal is dead.

It is not only the price escalation, but many other things. What the new Govt is looking for getting the REAL cutting edge technology and not just assembling kits. As of now we are assembling kits.
The basic of the delays or failure is the lack of proper infrastructure like Wind tunnel and other equipments that are deemed necessary to develop cutting edge technology and planes. Having to use one in foreign country is expensive and there are few other issues related to secrecy etc.

What the GoI needs to do is go in for Design infrastructure that can last for long period and look ahead.

 

[smestarz]

Where did you get this ? Only 2 Su-'s have been modified for carrying Brahmos.

40 would be modified later.

& Not a single Su has been converted to Super Su-standard.

Just 1 MKI has been upgraded from HAL factory recently & that is not Super Su-standard. Clearly, you are a time-traveller.

Only partially correct fact in your post is: Upgraded Su-30's would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos-M.

It would be 3 Brahmos at the maximum. Not at least 3 Brahmos.

It is almost universally acknowledged that Rafale as of now is vastly superior to Su-30 MKI (in its current form), when it comes to dedicated-strike or omni-role ( & it is just not marketing twist).

The Su-30 MKI that IAF has is not capable to use Brahmos A correct? And, hence this capability of modifiying the plane to be also be able to carry and launch 1 Brahmos A was part of Super Sukhoi upgrade. if you had visited Aero India you will notice that there is Sukhoi Su-30 MKI sporting a solitary Brahmos A missile on centreline pylon.

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI will be able to carry 3 Brahmos M as per the present plans, but I feel there is possibility to improve that, hence I said AT LEAST where 3 is confirmed number.

 

[smestarz]

Do you have the RFP. did you read it

The RFP is now available in public domian.
What Dassault had entered the fray was with its then modern F3 standard, but the present upgrades are F3R standards.
The Dassault team had jacked up the price during 2014 citing cost inflation and reported to be about 100% and hence GoI was reluctant to sign the deal. Now the French are pushing India to agree for F3R which is going to be much higher than the bid at which they had been declared L1.
And Dassault is reluctant to give F3 standard because it seems that they have matters set for F3R standard and they may not be able to take a step down.

 

[smestarz]

The RAfale are not F3R as part of them will be withdrawn from french procurement planes within 6 months. And you forget there was a qhole set of weapons in the deal : Torpedoes, Aster, Scalp, AASM, Mica...
Btw Collet Billon etc. Officially denied F3-R standard. It will be something like F3-I with the modifications India asked for.

And how much is it going to cost, did you notice that the recent deal with egypt the cost is coming to US$ 170-196 million per plane,
Egypt is bitiing a bit more than it can chew, and India had experienced this in the past when our Govt went all crazy on purchase of defence products and got India almost to bankruptcy.
Egypt is walking the same path it seems. but hope the Egypt leader is more visionary.

 

[SajeevJino]

The RFP is now available in public domian.

Eager to read the RFP

Can you please post the link

 

[sgarg]

I think I linked the "responsibility" clause in the RFP . It states that dassault is fully responsible where it is found to be their fault . The second clause is that the Rafale built by HAL has to match the performance of the Rafales built by Dassault themselves ... this is a responsibility of Dassault.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca-283.html
The question of cost is itself strange .. how much does the entire SU 30 infrastructure cost ? How much was spent on spares and maintenance or setting up the production facility the overhaul facility ? ... actually more money now needs to shelled out to create more warehouses to buy and stock the spares to increase the SU 30 availability rates.. The same goes for tejas

dna exclusive: 100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
This link is the usual filled with the same " un named "sources with nothing official . Today the Euro has fallen to the same rate as 3 years ago there should be little or no price escalation .
I don't care either way for the rafale but I think we should wait for the actual cost to come out of the RMs mouth .. Such costs are of public record .. we can see how much the CCS approves every month or so.

The Euro-dollar rate is NOT a parameter to the calculation. As I stated before, all parties quoted in US dollars. The restated prices are in US dollar too.

Yes, Dassault can revise the price but whatever exchange rate Dassault chooses is an internal issue. I think it is impossible for GOI to choose a plane by factoring in daily exchange rate fluctuations.

I have no idea, may be Dassault is asking 13 billion USD now for the planes. However no such negotiation should drag 3+ years. Two parties not agreeing to commercial terms after declaring a winner is very strange even by Indian standards.

You seem to be an optimist for Rafale and I appreciate that. However it is better to be a realist.

 

[sgarg]

It is not only the price escalation, but many other things. What the new Govt is looking for getting the REAL cutting edge technology and not just assembling kits. As of now we are assembling kits.
The basic of the delays or failure is the lack of proper infrastructure like Wind tunnel and other equipments that are deemed necessary to develop cutting edge technology and planes. Having to use one in foreign country is expensive and there are few other issues related to secrecy etc.

What the GoI needs to do is go in for Design infrastructure that can last for long period and look ahead.

A decision on Rafale will be strictly under the terms of RFP. There is no link to any other issue like desire of GOI to get cutting edge technology etc.

 

[karn]

The Euro-dollar rate is NOT a parameter to the calculation. As I stated before, all parties quoted in US dollars. The restated prices are in US dollar too.

Yes, Dassault can revise the price but whatever exchange rate Dassault chooses is an internal issue. I think it is impossible for GOI to choose a plane by factoring in daily exchange rate fluctuations.

I have no idea, may be Dassault is asking 13 billion USD now for the planes. However no such negotiation should drag 3+ years. Two parties not agreeing to commercial terms after declaring a winner is very strange even by Indian standards.

You seem to be an optimist for Rafale and I appreciate that. However it is better to be a realist.

Currency fluctuations matter a lot . Just look at what happened with the kolkata class destroyers .. Now the US is openly telling the government to sign on the dotted line for the apaches and chinooks or the price will go up . Costs are pegged to prevent currency fluctuation from causing too many problems but the cost is revised periodically. The cost is frozen only after ink has dried on the contract (but renegotiation can happen if there is extreme fluctuation ). The fact that the cost is written in terms of dollars in the media is meaningless if you read french newspapers the cost is quoted in euros .
I am not optimistic on Rafale I am just pointing out why it is needed so badly and why it will probably go through you know since the AMCA is so far away .