Know Your 'Rafale'

PaliwalWarrior

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came to know that

one track of negotiation in MMRCA is headed towards a downsized 2sqdn direct purchase from france order

AND THE FINAL OPTION IS ALWAYS THERE

Cancel the deal
 

Shirman

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I would say instead of extra Su-30 Mki go for Mig-35 with new AESA they showcased in Maks 2013 currently offered to both India and China but if they go for Migs our intelligent cum idiot media will say they make flying coffin planes which killed hundred of our pilots..........DRDO /private player should invite Russians / Phazotron just like IAI Israeli invited /co-operated with the Americans for their El/m-2052 Aesa radar
 
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RAM

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Ditching Rafale

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France's past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft's local assembly, has been reported. There's, however, an untold back-story revealing France's intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to "double dip", meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France's appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass' penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government's tendency eventually to cave into the military's demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better "F-3R" version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India's future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the "F-4R" and "F-5R" configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, "fly-by-light" technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan's antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of "diversity of suppliers") as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar's welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the "super Sukhoi-30", costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with "incalculable" savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France's extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF's request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France's reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France's or even America's liking. Except, heeding Washington's directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What's the guarantee Paris won't sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France's record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research and blogs at Security Wise | Bharat Karnad – India's Foremost Conservative Strategist
Ditching Rafale | idrw.org
 

Lions Of Punjab

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Ditching Rafale

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France's past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft's local assembly, has been reported. There's, however, an untold back-story revealing France's intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to "double dip", meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France's appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass' penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government's tendency eventually to cave into the military's demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better "F-3R" version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India's future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the "F-4R" and "F-5R" configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, "fly-by-light" technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan's antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of "diversity of suppliers") as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar's welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the "super Sukhoi-30", costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with "incalculable" savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France's extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF's request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France's reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France's or even America's liking. Except, heeding Washington's directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What's the guarantee Paris won't sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France's record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

Security Wise | Bharat Karnad – India's Foremost Conservative Strategist
 
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ersakthivel

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real time datalink is not unique to rafale

even Su30MKI gave those capability way back in 2004

capability to detecet human/vehicles is again dependent on sensor suite - cna be addeed to any aircraft
Only difference is SU-30 MKI has got it for years and rafale is only getting it now.
 

ersakthivel

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Lol you want information read this

The Rafale can carry more ordnance than any of its competitors, hands down. The Air Force variants (B and C) have 14, and the Navy (M) variant, 13 hardpoints. By contrast, the F-35 can carry only 4 munitions (e.g. missiles) while in its stealthy mode; the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-16 can carry only 11, and the Su-35 twelve.

rafale also costs more per unitthan any of the 4.5th gen fighter and this is the reason why it had found no takers yet. And this is the reason why MMRCA deal is going dead with exasperated manohar saying a loud public NO to Dassault negotiating tactic of breaking the crucial clauses of original RFP and trying to work its way around HAL to bring a no experience Reliance as JV partner to dodge TOT clause as well.It's refusal to tand guarantee to HAL produced rafale is going to be a deal breaker. IAF is not looking for the costliest bomb truck in rafale deal. It is looking for a fighter which has the capability to justify its cost as well.

Also it is stupid to compare the stealthy mode F-35 load carrying capability to non stealthy mode rafale carrying capability. It is like saying since F-15 can carry more weapons in non stealthy mode than the F-22 in stealthy mode, the F-15 is the better than F-22!!!!
For air-to-air combat, the Rafale's two principal missiles are the MBDA's MICA (Missile d'Interception, de Combat et d'Autodefense) and Meteor. The MICA is intended for short and medium range combat, with a nominal range of 80 kms, and has both electromagnetic and infrared seekers. The Meteor, with a 160 km range, is a radar-guided long-range (Beyond Visual Range) ramjet-powered missile similar to the American AIM-120D AMRAAM. The principal difference, of course, is the Meteor's ramjet engine. The French MOD has already ordered 200 such missiles.
When IAF was evaluating rafale for MMRCA it did not even set its eyes on meteor . All it saw was MICA only. SO other than your word where is the proof for IAF about meteor's 160 Km range?Meteor can be separately bought and added to any fighter in IAF if IAF pays the price. So it is not the ultimate clinching criteria to buy rafale. And what rafel does not have is the deadly close combat R-73 E (primary close combat weapon of SU-30 MKI and mig-29) which is visually cued by HMDS and jam proof. Eve th yet to be FOC certified tejas mk1 has demoed this .Iaf trusts this missile for close combat.Dassualt has not demoed any visually cued high off bore sight missile like R-73 E for dog fight. SO IAF has asked dassualt to integrate this missile for rafale .
This diversity of missiles and seekers will allow a Rafale pilot to saturate his opponent in combat with a salvo of 3 different missiles at once (and remember, the Rafale can carry 13-14 missiles in total). This means his opponent, forced to duck one of the missiles, would be detected by another missile's seeker, and thus be shot down.
Once again the diversity of missile seekers can be had for any fighter if the price is to be paid. It alone won't justify 20 billion dollar fighter buy.SU-30 MKI too can carry 13-14 missiles with various seeker combos to saturate enemy fighter.
Furthermore, the Rafale has the biggest gun on the market (ex aequo with Sukhoi aircraft): a hefty 30mm GIAT gun firing incendiary rounds. This makes the Rafale an excellent choice for both air to air and air to ground combat, as its 30mm rounds would provide excellent support for troops on the ground. 30mm is the caliber of the guns of most APCs and IFVs.
that is the job of IAF jaguar not the 20 billion dollar rafale .
For air to ground combat, the Rafale can carry the GBU-12 and GBU-49 Paveway II, the GBU-24 Paveway III, the Sagem AASM bomb (with a range of 55 meters and a CEP of less than 1 meter, designed to attack both static and mobile targets), the MBDA Apache and Scalp-EG cruise missiles (designed for attacking targets such as the runways of heavily defended airfields from a distance outside the range of their air defense systems), the Exocet AM39 anti-ship transonic cruise missile, and the forementioned ASMP and ASMP-A stealthy nuclear-armed cruise missiles.
most of IAF fighters are going to carry an air launched brahmos(like SU-30MKI) or brahmos mini, which has no equal in rafale armament palate for the deadly unstoppable impact it has.
In short, the Rafale can carry a wide range of weapons, and perform air to air, air to ground, and air to sea combat well.
No one disputes that. Pretty much every other IAf fighter can carry such armament if they were also integrated with these off the shelf weapons.
In particular, its Exocet missiles would, in any anti-ship battle, prove very deadly, as they did when launched by Argentine A-4 Skyhawks against British warships during the 1982 Falklands War. The warships of virtually all navies of the world are currently poorly prepared for the ASCM threat.
What is more deadly for anti ship operations? Excocet or Brhmos? IAF will say brahmos without any doubt.
The Rafale's two principal sensors are the Thales RBE2 ESA radar and the Thales/SAGEM OSF (Optronique Spherique Frontal) infrared search and tracking system (IRST system).
They are dwarfed by SU-30 MKI's about to be introduced ASEA radar size. Once again IRST pods are available off the shelf and can be integrated with any fighter.
The Dassault Rafale is a relatively small, light airplane. Therefore, it isn't surprising that its wing loading ratio (the ratio of its weight compared to its wingspace) is just 306 kg/sq m, the second lowest ratio on the market after the JAS-39 Gripen. Its combat radius is also impressive – 1,852 kilometers, again, the second-best in the market trailing only the F-15C/D. The Rafale also has an excellent rate of climb – 304 m/s, i.e. 60,000 ft/min. This means the plane can climb to its service ceiling (55,000 ft) in a minute.
rafale was selected for medium category by IAF. You are saying it is light!!! rafale has huge maintenance and life cycle costs . SO there is no point in saying it is light!!!!Tejas has even lower wing loading than gripen and rafale!!!. tejas leads in lowe wing loading specs, followed by gripen and rafale is the right way to put it.
The plane's two SNECMA MM-2 turbofan engines provide a dry thrust of 50.4 kN each, or 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each on afterburner. This gives the plane a very good thrust/weight ratio of 0.988:1 in full combat load – unheard of for a modern fighter, and fully competitive even with 5th generation American, Russian, and Chinese fighters.
Once again there is no point in comparing a 4th gen non stealth fighter with 5th gen fighter. With 98 Kn GE-414 evem tejas mk2 will get closer to such power to weight ratio. And SU-30 MKIs can also be upgraded with the higher poweres AL engines of Su-35 or the to be produced PAKFA engines to get such a TWR. And SU-30 MKI has a thrust vectoring capacity as a bonus. SO in a not far away MLU SU-30 MKI can be upgraded with all the goodies that will be present in the yet to be produced latest rafale with meteor and all that you mentiones at a fractio of the cost. SInce most of the flanker production is indigenised , total life cycle cost too will be far lower.
The one thing that somewhat lets the Rafale down – other than its 55,000 ft ceiling – is its speed of Mach 1.8, compared to Mach 2 or more for most other fighters. However, its principal competitor, the F-35, is worse at just Mach 1.61 and 43,000 ft. Moreover, it is not a mechanical flaw, but rather the product of a deliberate design aimed to optimise the Rafale for the by far predominant.
Wrong once again. Speed is no let down. Even the SU-30 MKI has almost the same top speed of 1970s era mig-21. No one cribs about lack of improvement in that department. Top speeds are esoteric specs which have no relevance in air combat .
I am just talking about advantages of rafale you s*uc*e*

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk
SO your supreme self has not listed out any advantage that is ground breaking for the 20 billion plus price , french tantrums against HAL ,and mind boggling operational and MLU costs(if mirage-2000 is any indicator!!) .

SO please avoid calling the other guy,s*uc*e*. Every one here knows all those "ground breaking techs" you listed for rafale and some more for eons. So no purpose is served by admonishing the other guy.

The moot question in rafale acquisition is not whether it is needed or not. IAF has already selected it even without having a look at its ASEA , Meteor combo disregarding the topspeed handicap you listed above, and the mouse sized ASEA radar for a 20 billion fighter plane.

The debate is whether it is worth to have it at that mind boggling price ?

And the fear of God in every DM. what will happen tomorrow , if he allows dassault to break all the original rules of RFP of MMRCA tender (dassault refusal to stand guarantee to HAL produced rafales and insistence on doubling the price after 2012 ).

If a DM overlooks all these and if some one tomorrow files a PIL in indian court stating the flagrant violation of original MMRCA RFP rules, then he and the government of the day are in deep sh!t. Specially so since it brings no ground breaking tech to justify its 20 billion dollar price and wont match 5th gen stealths(being introduced all over the world at the same time) even in the remotest imagination of any body
 
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PaliwalWarrior

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Cancel the MMRCA go for

60 more Su30MKI
80 Su34 MKI

order 70 more LCA Mk1

so total

110 LCA Mk1 20+20+70
60 Super Su30MKI
80 Su34 MKI

total 250 -
remember that Su30MKi costs 50% of rafale as per Def Min
and LCA Mk1 in 100 nos will cost close to 30 million

so we can acquire

250 plane within Rafale budget with money to spare how ?

estimated deal size with rafale is in 18 billion dollar range including the mfg plant & machinary

now consider this

for Su30MKI we will not need mfg line
for Su34/ faster producion of Su30MKI we will need the mfg line
for LCA we will need another mfg line

100 LCA costs 3 billion dollars
150 Su30 / Su34 mix 9.75 billion dollars (65 million each / should be less)
2 mfg line (lca/su each) 1 billion (for both - rs 6300 crore for 2 mfg line)

we will be done for 250 planes in 14 billion dollars

operationally

LCA will be sortie generators, interceptors, ligth short multiroles, point defence etc - will replace mig21 ebing retired

Super Su30MKI / SU30MKI - dominance / superiority

Su34MKI will be fighter bombers - while going for strike roles they will not need fighter (su30) cover they will be able to fend for themselves
not only that but by outfitting 50% of Su34 in strike mission with Air to Air / SEAD /ECM load they can even lead the rest of Su34/Jag/Mig27 into thier strike missions while providing air to air / ECM /EWF package
\so jags/Mig 27 Mirage while on strike mission can be groupd with Su34 and will not block Su30 for air cover 50% su34 can do the job


anyway we are not going to get rafale even from france before mid 2018 even if we order in mid 2015 -36 months 18 rafale

then rest will come out from HAL from 3years onwards what is expectation 12 / year ?

now Su30 / Su34 we can get 25% delivered in fully made condiiton from Russia also ask them to deploy from thier active service in mean time

Su30 production can go up immideately

it wont take much time to setup a mfg line for su30 /Su34 due to familiarity and existing setup

if we can get 16 LCA from 2017 onwards we can definitely setup another 16 unit line paralle to it so that i comes up by 2017

also the slow production steup in intial years is due to iron out process kinks initially not due to defficieny


while suggesting my figures & aircraft

i have kept a few things in mind

sqdn required in 2040 - 60 sqdn with 21 / 25 aircraft /sqdn = 1260 / 1500

short term 2025 -2035 50 sqdn with 21/25 aircraft / sqdn = 1050 /1250

so lets take a range from 1200 - 1500 aircraft over medium to long term

now long term twin engine aircraft to comprise 35-40% of total fleet

single engine to comprise the rest 60-65 %


So

twin engine - 40% @ 1200 = 480 twin engine
@ 1500 = 600 twin engine

rest single engine

but right now we really dont have any choice in single engine planes till 2018 - 2020 so twin engine will be on higher side

now in 2018 consider - 270 total Su30MKI
40 Su30 MKI delivered out of 60 more proposed
20 Su34 MKI delivered out of 80 proposed
330 total fleet of twin engine fighters

so by 2018 60 flankers +40 Lca will be delivered thus raising the sqdn strenght by 5 sqdns

by 2020 twin engine fleet will be 390 flankers

by 2022 twin engine fleet will be 420 flankers

but 2020-2022 will also eb the period where LCA mk1 nos + Mk2 Nos will kick in thus the proportion of single engine fighters will start increasing in the fleet and the nos of twin engine will start reaching peak and the proportion of twin engine in total fleet will start falling

This 2022 -2025 is also the period where we will be inducting FGFA (2022) and AMCA (2027) so they will be added at the rate of 8 each / year = 16/year?

but agaisnt those induction Su30 bought during 1998-2005 will be on thier last legs or being retired by 2030 or being put in reserves so the twin engine will not increse beyond the 35%-40% of fleet mark after 2022 and stay within the 480-600 & 35-40% range



but then what after LCA mk2 / 2022 in single engine ?

either
foregin / indian single engine stealth LCA mk3
or
with our own downrated twin engine stealth LCA mk4

and of course by 2022/2025 UCAVs like rustom 2/3 will add to the effective fleet with low costs

so with these calculation i had proposed the flanker fleet addition plan
 

ersakthivel

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You are right.I have acted to rudely.
I have just got angry because he told me the only thing i know about rafale is its pilot ejection seat.May be because he/she (i dont know he is a boy or girl or both) thinks he knows everything.:p:p:mad::confused:

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk
It is too irksome to have 11 post wonders like you "getting angry" at the drop of the hat.

I hope MODs put in strict rules to discipline ,"such easy to get angry people",
If you Browse the T 90 ADA Tejas Thread you can find Lot of Fighting between members ...

But We just want a Decent Post with Good Points Like you Posted in #966

I always loves to read post like that ..Keep the Good work and Keep your Presence Around DFI
Please post your impressions on who are the decent guys like Jaci07 , in ADA tejas and T-90 threads, who posted most impressive posts with technical points and authentic sources and the other guys who dragged it down the ditch with fiery fights , posting motivated personal opinions.

Decent posts from the guy who calls the other su*ke*, that too with out even making a single worthwhile posts???

You have to look elsewhere.

You are yet to answer about the famed 3000 Km range of rafales ,(which did not show up in a flight from france to Reunion islands, a 10000 km flight which needed a total of six fuel loads!!!)

I am looking forward to your "good posts filled with accurate technical explanation" in the above flight regime.
 
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sgarg

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Just three months ago I declared that Rafale will not happen for India on this very forum. I was openly ridiculed and decried by the paid Rafale propagandists on this website.

Now Rafale saga is fast hurtling towards a close as GOI realizes the need to cut diplomatic fallout and scrap the tender.

Dassault thinks India has no options (as the Generals say so loudly and openly), and GOI is clearly miffed as Dassault wants to change the tender price and refuses to take responsibility for Indian manufactured planes.
 

sgarg

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The government will push the AMCA program after cancelling MMRCA. The LCA numbers will be ramped up. Su-30 number may increase. Some Mig-29 may be bought as replacements for attrition.
 

sgarg

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The Mig-21 fleet needs to be replaced with LCA Tejas, not some uberly expensive plane. It is possible to build 25-30 LCA Tejas aircrafts every year if one more line is established in private sector in addition to existing line in HAL.
India needs a low end fighter that can fill the airbases, something that can be fielded in numbers like earlier Mig-21 (at least 15 squadrons). That plane which is cheap to build and maintain is LCA Tejas.

LCA Tejas (15 sq) along with Su-30 (another 14 sq) can form the backbone of IAF.
 

Kyubi

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@sgarg Fast hurtling you say, do you forsee GOI really scrapping the deal without taking cognisance of IAF requirement's , who clearly want Rafael
 
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PaliwalWarrior

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@sgarg Fast hurtling you say, do you forsee GOI really scrapping the deal without taking cognisance of IAF requirement's , who clearly want Rafael

IAF has been asked by MoD to be advisors on what specificatins / Capabilites should be there in products they NEED and what roles they should be able to perform

they have been specifically asked not to advise on which products they WANT

means they have been asked to not be pushy that - WE WANT RAFALE

they have been asked to adivse the govt on - what should be Payload, what should be radar what shuld be flying ceiling STR

and stick to these only

the search selection and finalisation and purchase of the system will be decided and done by GOI

earlier we used to see the IAF chief mentioning we need the rafale deal urgently almost every week

since last 2 months not even once teh IAF cheif nor any of its top brass has mentioned MMRCA let alone Rafale specifically ever wonder why ?
 
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Kyubi

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@sgarg good observation indeed I haven't seen IAF chief speaking about Rafael deal, may be cause he is not interacting with media as much as earlier... But with respect to selecting aircrafts do u think GoI has the technical and user specific know-how to decide on the system !!!!
 
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sgarg

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@sgarg good observation indeed I haven't seen IAF chief speaking about Rafael deal, may be cause he is not interacting with media as much as earlier... But with respect to selecting aircrafts do u think GoI has the technical and user specific know-how to decide on the system !!!!
The user is always involved. User is involved in LCA Tejas too. User was involved in the selection of basic trainer where the specs were heavily toned down for an import. This has been regularly happening that quality and price parameters are regularly relaxed for imports.

The government is flexible on Pilatus as HAL HTT40 is not ready. Also it is a much smaller requirement. GOI has to think hard when committing 30 billion on Rafale. 30 billion for five squadrons is no laughing matter.

GOI must have definitely asked the IAF why this 30 billion can not be spent in a better manner. I am sure IAF would have given some reply.
 
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halloweene

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Bharat Karnad paper. A clown. Full of factual errors so i'd take with all the oceans salt...
Lets say for example : F4R and F5R do not exist...
AESA was indeed included in RFP. And tests. And submission...
PESA isn't anymore built etc.
In fact the most difficult part in Karnad's "analysis" is to find one true thing.
 
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