Know Your 'Rafale'

[cannonfodder]

Support Tejas Mk1 and put the same money in Mk2 to develop home capability which can be as good as Rafael.

We should have some faith in our capabilities.

You can't buy Typhoon since it is built by Finmeccanica too and you banned it for the AW-101 deal. Same with the NH-90 deal(for which i'm quite curious how competitive it has been having only one bidder )

 

[halloweene]

Support Tejas Mk1 and put the same money in Mk2 to develop home capability which can be as good as Rafael.

We should have some faith in our capabilities.

Different planes, ranges, loadouts.

Comparing apples and oranges.

IAF doctrina is to have heavy/medium/light fighters.

 

[cannonfodder]

IAF can clearly operate without medium fighters; why spend hard earned foreign reserves and keep relying on foreign countries when there are ingenious projects being developed(Mk2 will clearly wont be light weight fighter). I don't want to suggest MK2 and Rafael will be same here.

Most likely if this deals materializes; IAF will have this excuse that MK2 is no longer light combat fighter by the time it is ready for FOC ... Rafael will be already present to support medium fighter role. It will have the same fate as Arjun Mk2 MBT (excuses that it is overweight, logistics etc.. and no more order being placed.)
Another way forward is to force IAF responsible for success of projects by scrapping this deal, it will hopefully and automatically make IAF wanting LCA MK2 to succeed.
IA and IAF are also responsible for holding back our defense equipment producing capabilities. Let us make some economically correct decisions as well. What I want to say is ordering some 40-50 MK1 will not encourage any private investor to invest in this sector and we will remain under developed and reliant on foreign imports.

Different planes, ranges, loadouts.

Comparing apples and oranges.

IAF doctrina is to have heavy/medium/light fighters.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Different planes, ranges, loadouts.

Comparing apples and oranges.

IAF doctrina is to have heavy/medium/light fighters.

Dear Halloweene, please note historically IAF has always had a combination of Strikers/Bombers + Fighters..... Never has there been a Light/Medium/Heavy Mix ! There was and is no doctrine as such that says IAF has to have a Light/Medium/Heavy mix! The Mix is dictated by the role that is envisioned as per its operational requirements and to counter its adversaries (PAF/PLAAF) strengths!

From the Spitfires/Tempest Fighters and Dakota B 24 Liberator mix of the 1940's to the Jaguar and Mig 21's/23's of the 1980's historically IAF has stuck to the above points as a guiding principle for procurement!

Not only is this Light/Medium/Heavy mix an alien concept to IAF (historically speaking) but look up the best Air forces in the world (considering their Fighting record) ...be it USAF or Israel Air Force there is only Light/Heavy mix!! Even our adversaries like China/Pakistan have nothing to suggest that we need a Low/Medium/Heavy mix! Even French airforce doesn't have any Light/Medium/Heavy mix so I wonder why you are suggesting this... best to practice what you preach or preach what you need to sell!

So either IAF has had a brainwave that is contrary to its own historical operational knowledge or the wisdom of the best Fighter forces in the world or its adversaries fighter mix (Pakistan Air Force & PLAAF)

However I do understand IAF wishes to have something in its inventory that PLAAF cannot get its hands on (Flankers in their various avatars are there with IAF and PLAAF) but is 100 million + worth spending on a 4 ++ Fighter like Rafale ?? This is a very expensive deal that shall break the entire budget of all the armed forces with repercussions felt by Indian Army and Navy as well when both IA and Navy has a far more pressing needs such as Howitzers and Submarines to name a few.

My point is that if you pay 100 million plus to buy a 4 ++ Fighter than its a wastage since you have nt added any out of the ordinary capability to your fighting arm. I would NOT have objected if IAF had spent this obscene amount of money to get a 5 gen fighter as that would have given it an edge over its competition. To be very frank as our Defense Minister said we can induct more MKI's to bring up our squadron strength and I am pretty certain that MKI is the best there is. IT can also do a bombing truck role if that is what is required !

IAF are themselves to be blamed for this protracted fiasco called MMRCA ----- if your Air Force says there is no Plan B in place if this purchase fails than its not surprising Dassault is playing hard ball!! I wonder whether IAF realises that they have done the nation a disservice by saying this... as a party in negotiation they should have backed the Govt of India's negotiators to get the best deal from Dassault! But no they chose to strengthen the hand of the seller just like a spoiled brat does standing in a fancy toy store to force his parents to buy the most expensive toy by saying he wants just that one and none other! As a layman I am scarred to think our Air Force has no Plan B.... if they are so bankrupt in ideas how would they manage battle scenarios when everything is extremely fluid and you need to have a Plan from A to Z !!

This spoiled brat attitude has to be checked other wise India shall forever have an Imported Air Force instead of a self reliant force!

 

[Zebra]

Sad RFP isn't public...

Sir, btw this is my second post regarding RFP for MMRCA.

Do you remember my post number one?

Press Information Bureau English Releases

 

[Punya Pratap]

RFP deviation strengthen French negotiators on MMRCA
Published January 5, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWORK ( INN)



Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar is not easy person to deal with, Ex-CM of Goa has ability to go through contracts and draw out shortcomings, his technical educational background comes in handy many times said people who have worked with him when he was CM of Goa , French might be learning more of Sharp and active Parrikar lately .

Parrikar was amused how previous government allowed Dassault Aviation hijack whole MMRCA negotiation with India. Dassault not only dictated terms but also started diverting from original Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses issued by India.

Dassault Aviation selected Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) as its private sector partner to manufacture the Rafale Combat jets in India soon after Rafale was declared L1 bidder trying to bypass Hindustan Aeronautics Limited from start which was first deviation of RFP) clauses, since it was always clear that Government owned HAL will be Production House.

Then Dassault Aviation blamed that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited doesn't have proper infrastructure to build and absorb Transfer of Technology (TOT) fully aware that HAL was building Russian Sukhoi-30MKI in Country , while RIL had not even taken up any aviation Projects in the country let alone manufacturing of 4++ Generation fighter aircrafts .

Second deviation was guarantee clause which was part of RFP which had was placed so that HAL made jets covered Delivery schedules and meet Product quality. While many blamed HAL over the issue and argued how Dassault Aviation should be liable to Delivery schedules and meet Product quality when they were not manufacturing them?
Government had told that if delays happens due to HAL they won't be any penalties for Dassault Aviation, but they refused and prolonged negotiations.

While India soften its stand, Dassault Aviation was still not making any moves to break deadlocks. What might have started all out war in open was When Dassault Aviation asked HAL and India to provide documents and agreements which Russia and India had agreed on for TOT and manufacturing of Sukhoi-30MKI in India.

Some Expert believe that Dassault Aviation has been cleverly diverting from Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses to delay MMRCA deal to later seek a higher price, which agreed will be double from the Quoted price of 2012.

Parrikar's open support on purchasing of additional Su-30MKI and talks of likely collapse of the deal has shook French Dassault Aviation, who are coming back to India with better negotiation team . Dassault Aviation has failed to get Export customer for Rafale in last decade due to frequent flip-flops with negotiating customers , While many called off talks after few months , with India they kept the pot boiling for 3 years and its right time to turn off the fire

 

[Punya Pratap]

This article by IDRW (I know some will question IDRW as a source) is reflective of what I have said in m previous post.... a spoiled brat called IAF has done nothing but strengthen the hand of Dassault!!

Before people start trashing IDRW as a source I would like to request you to go through the article... a unbiased reading of the facts will impress only one thing.... Dassault has from the beginning played hard ball and repeatedly deviated from the RFP in the below mentioned points. It does nt take a Sherlock Holmes to confirm what IDRW is saying in this article are the facts...any body with simple common sense and who has followed MMRCA from the beginning will agree with the article!

1) HAL was and is the lead production/integrator than why this fiasco over Reliance when Reliance has no experience what so ever! Simply coz Dassault was looking to form a JV and earn a pretty penny by this JV produced fighters!

2) The indigenous content in MKI is increasing (IAF gets phase IV Su-30 MKI with indigenous content | Defenceradar News) IAF has started receiving Phase 4 MKI's which are being made from raw material instead of complete knocked down and semi knocked down units! I think it is not Dassault but Sukhoi which could claim that HAL will have difficulty absorbing the tech! Err by the same argument Dassault should be asked about Reliance Industry's ability to absorb the Hi-Tech processes while it has not even manufactured a Tyre till date for fighter jets!!

3) RFP clearly stated that Dassault will have to stand guarantee on the 108 jets manufactured by HAL than why is Dassault acting difficult over this..... This clause was always there in the RFP since the beginning so why is Dassault trying to renege this clause?

 

[Illusive]

Do you guys think if this deal doesn't come through buying EFT in limited no. of the shelf say 2 sq would be a good idea to give IAF the much needed capability instead of just buying more mki or maybe even consider limited no. of su35 or su34 as a dedicated bomber.

 

[karn]

I remember way back when the choice was between the Rafale and the Typhoon I was hoping that the airforce would go with the typhoon purely on the basis of how Dassault robbed the IAF over the mirage upgrades . It seems at this point it does not matter which empowered "person " comes from France . Its basically stick to the original RFP or no deal . At which point after delivering Rafales to Oman France will stop making fighter aircraft .

 

[Lone Ranger]

I remember way back when the choice was between the Rafale and the Typhoon I was hoping that the airforce would go with the typhoon purely on the basis of how Dassault robbed the IAF over the mirage upgrades . It seems at this point it does not matter which empowered "person " comes from France . Its basically stick to the original RFP or no deal . At which point after delivering Rafales to Oman France will stop making fighter aircraft .

has upgrade of mirage 2k of iaf finished ?

 

[Ray]

Different planes, ranges, loadouts.

Comparing apples and oranges.

IAF doctrina is to have heavy/medium/light fighters.

What exactly is a Light/Medium/Heavy Mix for the air forces of the world?

If I have understood right, then fighter aircraft are designed specifically for ground-attack, strike, interceptors, close-support et al.

Bombers, a staple of 20th century warfare, are largely obsolete in modern times, largely because of developments in ICBM and cruise missile technology.

And India has no expeditionary ambitions, as yet.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

there is a conspicious absence of the rafale lobby crowd here since last 2 months

am i the only one noticing it ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

as per unconfirmed tidbit from an insider on another forums the breaking news is that

Russia is ready for weapons for Food etc items deal with India just like older USSR deals and like argentina

and the offer is being seriously taken in Govt circles

 

[Punya Pratap]

as per unconfirmed tidbit from an insider on another forums the breaking news is that

Russia is ready for weapons for Food etc items deal with India just like older USSR deals and like argentina

and the offer is being seriously taken in Govt circles

Circle of life!! How the mighty have fallen!!

Well I think Russia deserves our friendship and support since they have always stood by us diplomatically and militarily for decades! I wonder whether we can get MIG 35 MKI'éd and now that the Russian Air Force is also procuring it than there is no reason to junk it like we did during the MMRCA run up saying Mig 35 was not going for productions or does nt have a functional AESA (Now with ZHUK - AE)

Egypt is also considering buying it (MiG-35: The plane that won't die | Russia & India Report) since it comes with a sticker price of 30/40 Million against the 100 million for a Rafale. I bet the Russians will be more than happy to transfer the entire production line lock, stock and barrel to India knowing they need the money to survive the international sanctions plus a viable medium fighter that guzzles less and flies more with increased thrust (RD 33 MK) We make it in India on joint production basis with

 

[Meriv90]

Do you guys think if this deal doesn't come through buying EFT in limited no. of the shelf say 2 sq would be a good idea to give IAF the much needed capability instead of just buying more mki or maybe even consider limited no. of su35 or su34 as a dedicated bomber.

You can't buy ETF anymore! as i wrote before after the banning of Finnmeccanica for the AW-101 deal India can only buy a Finmeccanica produced item only if there is no other contender and in this case it isn't so no ETF anymore, just like the naval tender where the only competitor were Sikorsky.

 

[ladder]

You can't buy ETF anymore! as i wrote before after the banning of Finnmeccanica for the AW-101 deal India can only buy a Finmeccanica produced item only if there is no other contender and in this case it isn't so no ETF anymore, just like the naval tender where the only competitor were Sikorsky.

Who made that rule? India. Who can change that rule, again India.

 

[arya]

still we are playing in dark , how smart we are we cant but a F plane in such long times....

what we are waiting for a war then we will buy ????

 

[halloweene]

First ones were delivered and fully compliant. If anyone has a photo i'd be very interested in a photo of retrofitted indian M2K, particularly the side of nose.

 

[ladder]

First ones were delivered and fully compliant. If anyone has a photo i'd be very interested in a photo of retrofitted indian M2K, particularly the side of nose.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GJEnIGwlx...35102_738602962820217_1052840411_n-738833.jpg

 

[Meriv90]

Who made that rule? India. Who can change that rule, again India.

That would be nice, but consider that you would be abrogating the law and in consequence all the rest of the banned companies would be able to bid again in all your tenders, immagine the situation that will result from it and how much you will delay all the other tenders plus taking in consideration that you are bringing in companies that are clear corrupt.

Plus you won't get the responsibility of indian built EFT on the EFT group(that would be suicidal as it is for Dassault)