Know Your 'Rafale'

[Dhairya Yadav]

I won't say if Rafale failed or not
but i knoe Tejas can operate in leh

2013 Leh Winter Trials - Tejas - India's Light Combat Aircraft


@ersakthivel
Why and how can sm1 spread false news without thinking???? or am I wrong?

You are wrong. Rafale failed, tejas failed...1ST TIME. It doesnt mean they wont be able to operate there forever.

 

[Pulkit]

kindly do share your source of information for Failure of Tejas..official......
I m not concerned with Rafale....

You are wrong. Rafale failed, tejas failed...1ST TIME. It doesnt mean they wont be able to operate there forever.

"It doesnt mean they wont be able to operate there forever" I claimed nothing regarding this .....

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

kindly do share your source of information for Failure of Tejas..official......
I m not concerned with Rafale....



"It doesnt mean they wont be able to operate there forever" I claimed nothing regarding this .....

'LCA Tejas likely to be ready for operational service by 2015' | Business Standard News

 

[halloweene]

Could anyone link me a serious source about Rafale missing Leh trials please? Thank you.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The word 'fail' is not suited rather it should have been said ' enhanced ' , Of-course i talking about Tejas ..

 

[halloweene]

Will ask very soon. And i prefer my 417 to yours

 

[sgarg]

You are wrong. Rafale failed, tejas failed...1ST TIME. It doesnt mean they wont be able to operate there forever.

Dhairya, the good thing about indigenous design is that the plane can be fixed quickly. Compare this situation with even Su-30 where we are at the mercy of another country to change any design. We make make a plane under license but we cannot change it.

Even if Tejas had difficulty operating in Leh, that does not mean end of usefulness of Tejas. We need these small fighters in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat. Small fighters are more suitable for Pakistan border where flight times are very short.

 

[sgarg]

It is important to either have intellectual property rights or to purchase IPR outright.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Dhairya, the good thing about indigenous design is that the plane can be fixed quickly. Compare this situation with even Su-30 where we are at the mercy of another country to change any design. We make make a plane under license but we cannot change it.

Even if Tejas had difficulty operating in Leh, that does not mean end of usefulness of Tejas. We need these small fighters in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat. Small fighters are more suitable for Pakistan border where flight times are very short.

And whats your point? I never said that Tejas should be dropped !

 

[p2prada]

Dhairya, the good thing about indigenous design is that the plane can be fixed quickly. Compare this situation with even Su-30 where we are at the mercy of another country to change any design. We make make a plane under license but we cannot change it.

Why is this nonsense repeated again and again?

Check who is making changes to Su-30 to add Brahmos. It was a competition and Sukhoi lost to HAL. Go read up on real facts.

HAL has already made 64 modifications to the MKI since its induction in 2002.

Check why Su-30 is our aircraft test bed to test new weapons. Sudarshan was tested from MKI and so was Astra. In the future Brahmos will be tested and then Nirbhay also. None of this is possible without modifications.

 

[Zebra]

The only negative point of Rafale is the smaller radar, but not really a major drawback. Failing Leh trials is not a drawback.

You are looking for flaws which don't exist. Rafale's design considerations are only with respect to the other MRCA contenders. If you compare Rafale with SH, F-16, Typhoon, Gripen and Mig-35 then Rafale is flawless.

If you compare Rafale with Mig-31, FGFA, MKI, F-22, F-15 etc, then there are design limitations on Rafale that do not allow a fair comparison.

These are simple things understood by even simple people when they read it the first time. If all of this is going over your head, then I suggest a quick therapy consultation.

Tell me one more simple thing, why Rafale needs so many refuel in Mali operation.

I had said before also, Leh trials isn't a benchmark. It doesn't matter if it is LCA or Rafale. If something fails a trial you just ask them to repeat it.
Nobody is going to reject an aircraft just because it failed Leh trials.
LCA failed Leh trials too.

Does that LCA has any name?

You don't like facts. You may talk with your balls, but the IAF is a professional force. I don't see why they have to make MRCA evaluations public.

Dude, I love fact. That is why I asked for Indian MRCA evaluations, this is third time I am asking it.

Are there any thing to hide in it? Those "professional force" believe in any kind of transparency for such a huge 'mother of all fighter aircraft deal', they should come forward and inform people about their evaluations rather than hiding it.

Blah blah blah. Don't talk about things you don't understand. The F-35 is a $40+ Billion R&D program. The Advanced Super Hornet is barely even worth a Billion dollars. The Rafale is quite equivalent to the F-35 program in comparison. Boeing has to invest as much as others have invested in F-35 or Rafale just to be equal.
That's why the Su-35, mig-35, F-15SE, SH B3, F-16IN etc are not such impressive programs compared to F-35 or Rafale.
Boeing simply plans to spend little money, modify parts of the aircraft, add some new avionics and sell it cheap. It is in no way an equivalent to Rafale.
You are still getting into things you don't understand. This is typical gutter mentality. You have an opinion on something you don't understand at all, instead of just reading and getting to understand simple concepts.
LCA Mk2, Gripen E, SH B2, F-16B60, Su-35, such aircraft are all treated an new airframes because old aircraft cannot be modified to make it equal to the new.
That's the reason why the Swedish govt has authorized a new build for Gripen E. They were convinced that old Gripen C cannot be modified to Gripen E.
In the same way LCA Mk1 cannot become LCA Mk2. F-16 B15 cannot become F-16B30. F-15C cannot become F-15E. Su-27 cannot become Su-35. You can't simply upgrade like that, hence they are new.

If Rafale is so good and really in real world it is just be equal to F-35 then there should be a lot more export orders for it by now. Isn't it?


And you are blabbering here, not me. See the red color part in your post which I quoted here.

"Saab is to convert 60 of the SwAF's Gripen C platforms into the latest-variant Gripen E"

These are not my words, I copied it and pasted here from this link........Saab to offer Gripen C/D upgrades, pushes exports - IHS Jane's 360

(The same link tells us what is the cost per flight hour of Gripen C. It says it is $7500 per hour. That is news for me) :shocked:


What you gave list of modified aircrafts, they did some kind of changes to their products, they change engine or they add CWB or they did some kind of structural change to their product that is why they redesign or reinforced or restructured their existing airframe. Where as in ASH case, it doesn't need any of changes. They are using the same variant engine. For their CWB they don't need any airframe change. In such situation they don't need to redesign or anything to restructure or reinforce.

What they did is, they upgrade their aircraft with new next gen options. That is what all other companies will do by 2025. Boeing started it now.

SAAB already announced their MLU for Gripen E. Right now their aircraft doesn't stand near any 5th gen aircraft, after 2025 MLU they may get some where near it. All the new Gripen E which get rolled out before 2025 will go through that MLU, if their customer wants it.

One of the French poster had already posted it here for at-least two MLUs by that time line. I guess.

Before 2025 most of the countries who are waiting for 5th gen aircrafts today, will get it operational by that time, if all goes well. And all the 4+ aircrafts will get upgrade by that time. Again Boeing did it earlier. That is........Advanced Super Hornet - (ASH).

Now correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Zebra]

Could anyone link me a serious source about Rafale missing Leh trials please? Thank you.

Buddy, why don't you or the maker of Rafale request straight to IAF, to make the MRCA evaluations available to public and media.

It will be the most "serious source".

And I am serious. If there are nothing to hide then let it come out in public.

You guys are the best bet for us.

Please go for it.

And thanks in advance.

 

[p2prada]

Tell me one more simple thing, why Rafale needs so many refuel in Mali operation.

To stay in the air for 10 hours.

Dude, I love fact.

Now when it comes to IAF and MRCA.

Are there any thing to hide in it? Those "professional force" believe in any kind of transparency for such a huge 'mother of all fighter aircraft deal', they should come forward and inform people about their evaluations rather than hiding it.

Just wait 40 or more years. We don't have information about the Jaguar competition itself. IAF is a professional force.

If Rafale is so good and really in real world it is just be equal to F-35 then there should be a lot more export orders for it by now. Isn't it?

The French are yet to sell aircraft to their captive markets. That's India, UAE, Qatar etc. Maybe even Kuwait. And the aircraft itself is advanced enough to be expensive, that's why some air forces settled for cheaper aircraft. Brazil and Switzerland chose Gripen because it was cheaper to operate.

Does that LCA has any name?

You only need average IQ to know which plane I'm talking about. If you have less than average IQ then let me know and I will answer.

And you are blabbering here, not me. See the red color part in your post which I quoted here.

"Saab is to convert 60 of the SwAF's Gripen C platforms into the latest-variant Gripen E"

These are not my words, I copied it and pasted here from this link........Saab to offer Gripen C/D upgrades, pushes exports - IHS Jane's 360

Old news. Gripen C cannot be upgraded to E, so SAF will buy 60 jets.

What you gave list of modified aircrafts, they did some kind of changes to their products, they change engine or they add CWB or they did some kind of structural change to their product that is why they redesign or reinforced or restructured their existing airframe. Where as in ASH case, it doesn't need any of changes. They are using the same variant engine. For their CWB they don't need any airframe change. In such situation they don't need to redesign or anything to restructure or reinforce.

What they did is, they upgrade their aircraft with new next gen options. That is what all other companies will do by 2025. Boeing started it now.

SAAB already announced their MLU for Gripen E. Right now their aircraft doesn't stand near any 5th gen aircraft, after 2025 MLU they may get some where near it. All the new Gripen E which get rolled out before 2025 will go through that MLU, if their customer wants it.

One of the French poster had already posted it here for at-least two MLUs by that time line. I guess.

Before 2025 most of the countries who are waiting for 5th gen aircrafts today, will get it operational by that time, if all goes well. And all the 4+ aircrafts will get upgrade by that time. Again Boeing did it earlier. That is........Advanced Super Hornet - (ASH).

Now correct me if I am wrong.

Everything is wrong. What more do you want?

The Advanced Super Hornet is not even in design phase. It is not even on paper. It is just a concept that they say they will work on in case somebody buys it. If you look at Danish evaluation, it is nowhere near Rafale.

Out of all the MRCA contenders, Rafale is actually a generation ahead. Typhoon is only trying to catch up, the rest are just 4th gen aircraft with AESA. Maybe Gripen will also catch up in terms of technology, but it will still be less capable than Rafale in most of the roles. The Swedish evaluation already determined that.

For Boeing to catch up to Rafale they will have to spend more than $5 Billion just to get to Rafale's minimum capabilities. Even the engine technology is older. No way will they spend that much even if they get an order for 126 jets. Rafale's Spectra suite alone costed Billion to develop. Single parts in Rafale are more expensive to develop than the entire LCA program.

This is the reason why Su-30's upgrade has been linked with FGFA development. This way stuff that swallowed billions will go on Su-30 also.

Sweden is buying Gripen E outright. They are not modifying Gripen C to Gripen E.
This is from Janes too.
Swedish Gripen Es to be new-build rather than re-manufactured - IHS Jane's 360

This is why you have to keep up with news.

 

[Zebra]

1)

Prior to the Gripen, 4 out of the 5 aircraft had issues restarting their engines during trials conducted in Leh. Updated bids have been requested by the MOD on 28 April 2010, according to an MOD official. Meanwhile GRIPEN NG DEMO aircraft has passed its high altitude tests in Leh and also other hot weather tests. Now the process of down selecting will begin. European fighters have become 25% cheaper. CEO of Eurofighter consortorium says that he now has more than 50% chance in the competition.

Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com: Air Force MRCA Deal - Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Emerge Front Runners After Field Trials

 

[Zebra]

To stay in the air for 10 hours.

Elaborate that.

On top it name that LCA too, I want to know from you.

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Don't know if it was previously Shared

Classified information about Swiss Air Force evaluation back in 2008

files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

@p2prada @halloweene Sir

 

[Illusive]

.

Don't know if it was previously Shared

Classified information about Swiss Air Force evaluation back in 2008

files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

@p2prada @halloweene Sir

I think @Drsomnath999 had shared it, but thanks for the source.

It just becomes clear why rafale have the advantage not just in cost but in capabilities too.

 

[p2prada]

.

Don't know if it was previously Shared

Classified information about Swiss Air Force evaluation back in 2008

files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

@p2prada @halloweene Sir

Extremely old news. Newbies can read it.

Elaborate that.

There's nothing to elaborate. You want to stay in the air indefinitely, you need mid air refueling.

Dassault Rafale Coped Well With Mali Mission | Aviation International News

Starting with a 3,400-mile interdiction mission (AI) launched from France on the night of January 13,

They landed at N'Djamena after nine hours 45 minutes, having been air-refueled six times.

"Mali is a large country, with lots of sand and one big river. We were flying 800 miles from N'Djamena just to get there, on day and night roundtrips lasting up to nine hours," said Lt. Col. Francois Tricot,

Reconnaissance missions were somewhat shorter at around five hours 30 minutes.

5440 Km to the target and then back to base. There's a lot more in the article explaining Rafale's capabilities including the ability to fire 12 AASMs from 2 aircraft in under a minute.

 

[halloweene]

And those 4 were?

 

[ersakthivel]

Elaborate that.

On top it name that LCA too, I want to know from you.

.

Don't know if it was previously Shared

Classified information about Swiss Air Force evaluation back in 2008

files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

@p2prada @halloweene Sir

Done bro.........

can you ask Saurav Jha about this , by giving him the link to the poster in front of the fighter in this photograph?

because many Ninjas here were claiming for eons that tejas can not have an endurance of more than 45 minutes!!!!

The poster gives endurance as 2 hours 30 minutes for tejas,

But if we magnify it the letters get blurred a bit,

I can not make out the range numbers after zooming it..

Am I correct?

http://www.sify.com/news/how-ak-ant...-ojpuCLdjffadf.html?source=sifyhome&slot=c1s2

While Manmohan Singh's personality in the psychological context of the Indians was a perfect veneer for pliability, criminal collusion and subversion of the spirit of Indian Constitution, Antony's assiduously acquired 'clean image' came in handy for 'powers that be' to subvert and wreck the Indian Armed Forces from within.

It may be reiterated here that Manmohan Singh in no sense was an elected Prime Minister and therefore his writ did not extend to picking up his own defence minister. The Prime Minister and the defence minister were picked up by the same authority and for same considerations, the least of all 'integrity'.

In fact, integrity and incorruptibility, financial and moral, were two biggest disqualifications in the previous regime.If Manmohan Singh delivered to his political benefactor and mentor by way of CWG, Coal and 2G; Antony did not lag behind. Never before in the history of India, the three services were targeted the manner in which it was done during Antony's stewardship of the MoD. Never in independent India, had the arms lobby become so brazen and criminal that it dared to manipulate 'chain of succession' of service chiefs.

The Indian Army was deliberately dragged into controversy by fabricating age related issue in respect of an Army Chief. Mr Antony vouched for the integrity of this Army Chief when he reported the Tatra scam to him. When the age issue came up in the Supreme Court, the government of which Mr Antony was a part, submitted an affidavit to the honourable bench, testifying the integrity of the concerned Army Chief.

If the Army Chief was a man of integrity, then Mr Antony must answer as to why did he re-elicit the opinion of the Law Ministry, when it had categorically ruled in favour of the Army Chief. The common buzz is that it was done at the behest of someone, to whom Mr Antony owed his office.The next in the line was Indian Air Force. Once the VVIP Chopper scam was reported from a foreign soil, as is invariably the case, a former Air Chief was made the scapegoat for allegedly being recipient of kick-backs.

The primary fault of this Air Chief was that as demanded, he had given his 'opinion' on the requisite operational parameters for procurement of VVIP Chopper. Even say, this Air Chief was guilty in the reckoning of Mr Antony for having allegedly received a small fraction of the kick-backs, the Defence Minister should have been worried as to who were the major recipients of public money. On this account both the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister were silent, because their puppeteer was in the grave shadow of doubt!

Now was the turn of Indian Navy. More than dozen accidents in a matter of months! It included two submarines. Many serving and retired Naval Officers asserted that the accidents were result of age related problems of the naval inventory. After every accident, the Naval Chief was put under-pressure. Finally, the powers that be succeeded. The Navy Chief resigned.

The desired person was put in Office. Such was the force and osmosis of this new Naval Chief that all age related problems of the inventory have mended without intervention and there have been no accidents thereafter. Very poor script Mr Antony! You and your patron indeed think very poorly of the intelligence of Indians and integrity of people in uniform.

Sadly there were some high ranking personnel in uniform to oblige the designs of your benefactors and the arms lobby. Subversion and sabotage by the arms lobby could not have acquired this new high, but for the indulgence of the dispensation. It was during the decade of the UPA rule that the notorious 'Chandigarh Gang' surfaced as the mainstay of the international arms lobby.

This gang is not necessarily in Chandigarh alone, but nevertheless is centered around it. It comprises some retired Officers, politicians, journalists and prominent newspapers. One of these newspapers, particularly one journalist was on an overdrive during the 'age-row' of the then Army Chief. It had gone to the extent of getting hysterical. Its obsession with General VK Singh continues. Another newspaper of the same ilk, carried the 'coup story' and a full page advertisement on 'Tatra' in the same issue.

The same very 'Chandigarh Gang' has been in the forefront of hyping the Chinese threat and disparaging the DRDO, all at the behest of the arms lobby. The media houses that are the part of this lobby, inconformity with the imperatives of the international arms manufacturers, from time to time bombards the audiences with 'Chinese here, Chinese there and Chinese everywhere' stories. Patriotic citizens should rather rely on the version of the Indian Army on these stories, then being misled by some of the unscrupulous media houses. Heading this 'Chandigarh Gang' was none other than the illustrious colleague of Mr Antony, who it is believed that was desperate to see through a 'succession plan' in the Indian Army.

It is also believed that it was he who prevailed on Mr Antony to re-obtain the opinion of the Law Ministry on the age issue of the said Army Chief.Threat analysis should be a major concern and responsibility of a defence minister. Mr Antony allowed the MoD to be hijacked on this issue. He equally shares the blame for India's sell out at Sharm-el-Sheikh.

As a result of Indo-US nuclear deal, he is equally responsible for degrading India's indigenous nuclear quest by slowing down the process of 'fast breeder reactor' and the 'thorium route'. If there are three ends to the spectrum of warfare, i.e. sub-conventional, conventional, and nuclear, then the entire gamut should be the concern of a defence minister.

If a prime minister is hysterical about only one end of this spectrum, then the motivations are not nationalistic. At the conventional level, Mr Antony did not allow one major arms acquisition even in the face of pernicious security imperatives on one pretext or the other. Indian security became a victim of the murderous internecine rivalry of the various arms lobbies.

At the sub-conventional or proxy war end of the spectrum, the defence minister allowed India's bargaining position to be neutralized vis-à-vis Pakistan by allowing the 'Chandigarh Gang' to implicate Col Purohit for Malegaon and Samjhauta blasts at the behest of international lobbies. The specter of 'Hindu terror' was drummed up by the media of the same 'Chandigarh Gang'. When the Army Court of Inquiry absolved this Officer, the least the defence minister should have done is to honourably reinstate him. This is bound to recoil as one of the biggest scams involving highest levels of the country. An unpardonable act on the part of the defence minister was to acquiesce to the machinations by the arms lobby for inquiry on the Technical Support Group (TSG) to kill the political prospects of Gen VK Singh.

The TSG raised for acquiring operational and tactical intelligence in the wake of 26/11. Those who are in the know of the splendid achievements of TSG, very much doubt the patriotism of the characters who questioned the functioning of the organization in order to pander anti-nationals in the Kashmir Valley and their Pakistani benefactors.

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Now we know why some sections of "eggsperts in defence media" are engaging constant mudslinging on indigenous projects like tejas and Arjun