Know Your 'Rafale'

Punya Pratap

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@ Halloween I would like to ask you what are the MLU options for Rafale's Radar and Engine...... looks like Rafale has size restrains on these since both Radar Dia & the fuselage are pretty cramped.

I understand RBE2AA shall be relevant for the time being but what is the future plans for conformal aesa radar installed in wings & fuselage of the plane & incorporation of GaN T/R modules??

As for the engine I m sure M88 will need to be changed for MLU's .... any inputs regarding this?
 

halloweene

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Google translation

The DGA should notify before the end of the year, two PEA to Thales in the field of airborne radars.
The first part of the feasibility phase of the Franco-British project FCAS and will be for the future system demonstrator UCAV (UCAS). It is working to develop key technologies of a multifunction radar with electronic antenna (Multi Function Array or MFA), combining radar, ECM and communications war.
Aside from this program rooted in the logic of cooperation, France reinforces its technological sovereignty in parallel with a second PEA MELBAA laying him on the study and demonstration of changes in the RBE-2 radar Rafale on the machine calculation of radar, against his against-measures (CCME) and radar processing dedicated to "atypical targets." The firm part of the second PEA be around the 30 million euros.
One way to show that the international Rafale program is constantly evolving. Some bricks of these technologies could well be used in the mid-life refurbishment of the Rafale (MLU), while others will mature on the horizon of his successor. A signal also vis-à-vis the competition, including Selex on Thales's technological lead in the field of new radars and future generations.
With these two simultaneous PEA, DGA and industry pose a big option for the future: one that ensures that France will continue the RBE-2 programs and multifunction radar.
 

halloweene

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@ Halloween I would like to ask you what are the MLU options for Rafale's Radar and Engine...... looks like Rafale has size restrains on these since both Radar Dia & the fuselage are pretty cramped.

I understand RBE2AA shall be relevant for the time being but what is the future plans for conformal aesa radar installed in wings & fuselage of the plane & incorporation of GaN T/R modules??

As for the engine I m sure M88 will need to be changed for MLU's .... any inputs regarding this?
From what we know, the head of procurement agency, Mr Collet-Billon declared that he was interested in" small agil antennas". We also know that the architecture of RBE2 is modular, that is supplementary antennas can be incorporated in principle. There were also some rumours about conformal antennas. Those point at an evolution towards conformal radar, but no definitive clue.
About GaN, it definitely is considered, (and they are being installed on prototype spectra evolution), but i wouldn't expect it before MLU (2025 or so timeframe). RBE2 is a very recent radar, and they will keep pushing its capabilities (see above) before transforming it with GaN. In fact, the main advantage of GaN would be to give more power. Which means a different electric power generation and probably a more powerful engine (aswell as a new cooling system, and possible compatibility issues with spectra). 9T engines have been ground tested, and we know there is a study plan running concerning hot parts of M-88 (called THEO). But one would need to enlarge air intakes to allow a larger air flow. The widely guessed idea is a fusion between spectra and radar.
Reportedly in specialized press, the Rafale "NG" will be slightly longer and frontal area reshaped. A weapon pod was studied for Korean FX1 market (no idea of the maturity of the project), aswell as conformal fuel tanks, HMD (btw Rockwell is now proposing a HMDS version for Rafale).
Here is all i can remembet atm, i'll let you know if something else comes to my mind.
 

Immanuel

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Well SH International is also a Gen Next Machine, far more so than the Rafale and at a significantly lower cost than the Rafale, the unit cost being mentioned of the rafale in the Indian context is more around 200+ million per unit including everything for the next 10 years. The SH would easily be around 40+million cheaper. Having read your quote what matters is that the dear admiral quotes SH in its block 2 form can meet all IAF requirements, shortcomings at Leh can be addressed easily with some mods in engine.

As for the Block 3 you dismiss as being 'fictional' it is more and more real every day. The SH already had once of the lowest RCS of all contenders and it only got better, I am sure it is as low as the rafale or even lower considering the stealth pods. Its large panel display will be ready for testing soon enough.

Also, the SH can currently fire the Aim-120D, its radar the apg-79 is far better with longer detecion ranges and combat proven, in this new config, it will detect the Rafale way before Rafale sees it and will have first launch ability. Also with Next Gen Jammer under works and Growler the SH with its proposed upgrades will continue to be a deadly fighter for sometime. In the Indian context it would have made more sense for IAF to buy the Super Hornet, as it would have been a good all rounder at a lower lifetime cost. But that ship has sailed it is too late to consider the SH, the Rafale deal should be signed by end of this year else it starts to be irrelevant, we are better off buying the F-35.


Boeing Pitches 'Advanced Super Hornet' For Future Threats | Aviation International News

Advanced Super Hornet demonstrates significant stealth and range improvements | Australian Aviation

Elbit orders active-matrix liquid crystal display from APC - Airforce Technology

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4o_yq9Ay7...-Super-Hornet-Media-Brief_page21_image267.png
 

halloweene

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The SH already had once of the lowest RCS of all contenders
Are you kidding?

its radar the apg-79 is far better with longer detecion ranges
Any clue?

Next Gen Jammer under works and Growler the SH with its proposed upgrades will continue to be a deadly fighter for sometime
Growler isnt a fighter, it is an EW plane. Good to notice that with NGJ they will finally join GaN dance... Oh wait, a plane is already flying with GaN modules jammer. Remind me which one?

The SH would easily be around 40+million cheaper
Again, any clue?

etc. etc.
 

Punya Pratap

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A Rediff News Article on MMRCA & Scorpene :

On January 31, 2012, Dassault Aviation's Rafale won the bid to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. The multi-billion dollar 'deal of the century' has since languished over price negotiations.

Rahul Bedi explains how 'miscellaneous' factors have posed a major hurdle in negotiating the Rafale deal.



The Rafale fighter aircraft. Credit: Dassault Avaiation
There is a delicious, albeit hugely expensive, irony involving the ongoing negotiations to procure 126 Dassault Rafale fighters that, in some aspects, parallels the purchase of six French Scorpene submarines nearly a decade ago.

Both deals straddled general elections a decade apart -- 2004 and 2014 -- featuring governments that initiated procurement procedures of the respective military platforms, but were voted out of office before inking them.

The BJP-led National Democratic Alliance began negotiating the Project 75 Scorpene contract with France in 2001, but the succeeding Congress Party-headed United Progressive Alliance eventually concluded the purchase in October 2005, some 18 months after forming the government.

The UPA, for its part, began discussions with Dassault in early 2012 for 126 Rafale's in support of the Indian Air Force's requirement for Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft, after the French fighter was shortlisted from amongst six competing platforms from Europe, Russia and the US.

National polls intervened before the complex and costly deal could be concluded; and, in a sardonic reversal of roles, the Rafale deal now awaits NDA administration's imprimatur.

The subtle irony underlying these two major acquisitions entails more than just the same cast of players -- French armament companies, the Congress Party and the BJP.

It involves hugely escalating costs, questionable bids and complex and extended price negotiations which both the ministry of defence and respective service headquarters seem inept in handling.



The Scorpene Submarine. Credit: DCNS
The comparison between the Scorpene purchase and the prospective Rafale acquisition need elaborating.

In October 2005, the UPA signed the Rs 18,798 crore deal for six Scorpene submarines to be built by Mazagaon Dockyard Limited under a transfer of technology from Armaris comprising Direction des Constructions Navales and Thales of France and Spain's Navantia.

After a series of mergers and acquisitions, this consortium emerged as DCNS in 2007 with whom all future dealings have subsequently been conducted.

Problems arose shortly after construction of three Scorpene boats began in 2007-08.

It emerged that the original agreement had mysteriously omitted to include varied critical components essential to the Scorpene's construction including engines, generators, sub-assemblies and raw material like specialised steel.

Accordingly, the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh -- presented a fait accompli as MDL had already begun building the Scorpene's -- was forced in March 2010 into approving an additional Rs 1,900 crore for the newly-created Mazagaon Procurement Materials.

The MPM, as a postscript to the main submarine contract agreed to five years earlier, emerged as vital entity to source the additional apparatus from DCNS to kick-start the stalled Scorpene programme.

The protracted negotiations to purchase this gear -- which raised the overall submarine contract price by some 10 per cent -- lasted almost 24 months and were primarily responsible for delaying the programme by four years to 2016.

This postponement, in turn, has added serious dimension to the Indian Navy's operational woes afflicted by its depleting underwater assets.

But more notably, this lapse in conclusively negotiating the Scorpene deal at one go appears to be one by MoD and naval officials who were either professionally incompetent or deliberately careless or both in determining essential equipment that puzzlingly and in all probability, much to DCNS' delight, emerged later.

At the time of the follow-on agreement with the MPM, defence industry officials had held DCNS responsible for significantly inflating the cost of these supplementary items on the grounds that a large proportion needed procuring from other European suppliers.

Hence, it can be surmised that these 'assorted' items were either skilfully or inadvertently omitted from the Scorpene bid or simply tagged on as 'miscellaneous' only to be negotiated later, once the submarines construction has started leaving the MoD and Navy no alternative but to acquire them.



The Rafale fighter aircraft. Credit: Dassault Avaiation
In what appears to be a rerun of the Scorpene project, around 50-60 'un-priced' items are believed to have been listed as miscellaneous' in Dassault's offer for the Rafale which emerged as L1 or the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender ahead of the Eurofighter.

MoD sources claim that it is these sundry articles that have emerged as the principal financial hurdle in negotiating the Rafale deal on the basis of its Life Cycle Cost based on keeping the fighter operational for four decades.

It appears that subsequent pricing by Dassault of these so-called miscellaneous but critical items -- like in the Scorpene tender -- in its deliberations with the MoD's Cost Negotiation Committee, are responsible for significantly inflating the Rafale contract cost, jeopardising the vendors L1 status and delaying its closure.

Official sources indicate the Rafale procurement has reportedly more than doubled from Rs 42,000 crore (then around $9 billion) earmarked for the MMRCA tender, when it was floated in 2007, to around $20 billion.

Spiraling inflation and the 15-20 per cent decline in the value of the rupee against the US dollar too have contributed to the cost escalation.

Consequently, each Rafale is now reportedly priced between $110-120 million.

The cost of the plant, machinery and tooling which Dassault is required to transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to licence build 108 of the 126 Rafale's in Bangalore has also escalated adding to the overall contract price.

But this seemingly Scorpene-like tactic of tagging on 'miscellaneous' items to the Rafale contract is unacceptable to the MoD.

Instead, these are deemed by the MoD to be part of Dassault's final bid, an arrangement that is reportedly unacceptable to the French manufacturer who is seeking to negotiate their costing.



However, what does prompt embarrassing questions for the MoD and the IAF is their failure or worse, possible collusion in categorically evaluating bids, leaving vendors to spring un-anticipated and hugely expensive surprises upon them once it was too late to pull back.

Hypothetically, if the Rafale deal were to be terminated, the entire process to acquire another MMRCA would, under existing Defence Procurement Procedures, begin afresh at a time when the IAF is concerned over its depleting combat squadrons and anxieties about operating ageing assets by extending their total technical life.

Any such move would also seriously dent Prime Minister Narendra Modi's assertions of upgrading India's depreciated military capability.

Paradoxically, the ongoing tussle between the MoD and Dassault over the Rafale tender has also prompted a Mexican stand off between the two, in which the latter is not without advantage.

The IAF's swiftly declining numerical superiority in combat platforms compared with the Pakistan Air Force and the correspondingly widening gap with the Peoples Liberation Army Air Force is, in a sense, a force multiplier for Dassault.
 

Punya Pratap

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From what we know, the head of procurement agency, Mr Collet-Billon declared that he was interested in" small agil antennas". We also know that the architecture of RBE2 is modular, that is supplementary antennas can be incorporated in principle. There were also some rumours about conformal antennas. Those point at an evolution towards conformal radar, but no definitive clue.
About GaN, it definitely is considered, (and they are being installed on prototype spectra evolution), but i wouldn't expect it before MLU (2025 or so timeframe). RBE2 is a very recent radar, and they will keep pushing its capabilities (see above) before transforming it with GaN. In fact, the main advantage of GaN would be to give more power. Which means a different electric power generation and probably a more powerful engine (aswell as a new cooling system, and possible compatibility issues with spectra). 9T engines have been ground tested, and we know there is a study plan running concerning hot parts of M-88 (called THEO). But one would need to enlarge air intakes to allow a larger air flow. The widely guessed idea is a fusion between spectra and radar.
Reportedly in specialized press, the Rafale "NG" will be slightly longer and frontal area reshaped. A weapon pod was studied for Korean FX1 market (no idea of the maturity of the project), aswell as conformal fuel tanks, HMD (btw Rockwell is now proposing a HMDS version for Rafale).
Here is all i can remembet atm, i'll let you know if something else comes to my mind.
Thanks Halloweene, IMHO RBE2 is restricted by a cramped radome size so I dont know how much evolution it can go through that is the reason why conformal/GaN options are being explored.

As for engine @ MLU's (For IAF Rafale's not the NG's) that again is going to take structural modifications for air intakes / fuselage length. I m not so worried about increasing the air intakes (even though you have RCS to consider) but increasing fuselage will be problematic (Aerodynamics/CoG etc)

I dont know but it appears to me that MLU's for Rafale will have a looming concern regarding the space constraints for both the Radars and Engines.... do let me know your thoughts Halloweene as I m sure you are better placed to point out Dassaults' options (Im sure they have some)
 

harsh

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On January 31, 2012, Dassault Aviation's Rafale won the bid to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. The multi-billion dollar 'deal of the century' has since languished over price negotiations.

Rahul Bedi explains how 'miscellaneous' factors have posed a major hurdle in negotiating the Rafale deal. There is a delicious, albeit hugely expensive, irony involving the ongoing negotiations to procure 126 Dassault Rafale fighters that, in some aspects, parallels the purchase of six French Scorpene submarines nearly a decade ago.

Both deals straddled general elections a decade apart — 2004 and 2014 — featuring governments that initiated procurement procedures of the respective military platforms, but were voted out of office before inking them.

The BJP-led National Democratic Alliance began negotiating the Project 75 Scorpene contract with France in 2001, but the succeeding Congress Party-headed United Progressive Alliance eventually concluded the purchase in October 2005, some 18 months after forming the government.

The UPA, for its part, began discussions with Dassault in early 2012 for 126 Rafale's in support of the Indian Air Force's requirement for Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft, after the French fighter was shortlisted from amongst six competing platforms from Europe, Russia and the US.

National polls intervened before the complex and costly deal could be concluded; and, in a sardonic reversal of roles, the Rafale deal now awaits NDA administration's imprimatur.

The subtle irony underlying these two major acquisitions entails more than just the same cast of players — French armament companies, the Congress Party and the BJP.

It involves hugely escalating costs, questionable bids and complex and extended price negotiations which both the ministry of defence and respective service headquarters seem inept in handling.

The comparison between the Scorpene purchase and the prospective Rafale acquisition need elaborating.

In October 2005, the UPA signed the Rs 18,798 crore deal for six Scorpene submarines to be built by Mazagaon Dockyard Limited under a transfer of technology from Armaris comprising Direction des Constructions Navales and Thales of France and Spain's Navantia.

After a series of mergers and acquisitions, this consortium emerged as DCNS in 2007 with whom all future dealings have subsequently been conducted.

Problems arose shortly after construction of three Scorpene boats began in 2007-08.

It emerged that the original agreement had mysteriously omitted to include varied critical components essential to the Scorpene's construction including engines, generators, sub-assemblies and raw material like specialised steel.

Accordingly, the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh — presented a fait accompli as MDL had already begun building the Scorpene's — was forced in March 2010 into approving an additional Rs 1,900 crore for the newly-created Mazagaon Procurement Materials.

The MPM, as a postscript to the main submarine contract agreed to five years earlier, emerged as vital entity to source the additional apparatus from DCNS to kick-start the stalled Scorpene programme.

The protracted negotiations to purchase this gear — which raised the overall submarine contract price by some 10 per cent — lasted almost 24 months and were primarily responsible for delaying the programme by four years to 2016.

This postponement, in turn, has added serious dimension to the Indian Navy's operational woes afflicted by its depleting underwater assets.

But more notably, this lapse in conclusively negotiating the Scorpene deal at one go appears to be one by MoD and naval officials who were either professionally incompetent or deliberately careless or both in determining essential equipment that puzzlingly and in all probability, much to DCNS' delight, emerged later.

At the time of the follow-on agreement with the MPM, defence industry officials had held DCN
 

Zebra

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Are you kidding?
Any clue?
Growler isnt a fighter, it is an EW plane. Good to notice that with NGJ they will finally join GaN dance... Oh wait, a plane is already flying with GaN modules jammer. Remind me which one?
Again, any clue?
etc. etc.
Either you didn't understand 'ASH' or you knows it, but are not ready to accept it here.

They are adding few F-18 G's abilities in F/A-18 E,F. They are trying to make a hybrid aircraft.

With two new CFTs, ASH's combat radius will be 1296 kms. On top of it three EWPs (each with 4 weapons in it) and two sidewinders, total 14 weapons in all.

All these at nearly $55-60 million each FAW cost. This price depends on which options we are looking at.
 

halloweene

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Thanks Halloweene, IMHO RBE2 is restricted by a cramped radome size so I dont know how much evolution it can go through that is the reason why conformal/GaN options are being explored.

As for engine @ MLU's (For IAF Rafale's not the NG's) that again is going to take structural modifications for air intakes / fuselage length. I m not so worried about increasing the air intakes (even though you have RCS to consider) but increasing fuselage will be problematic (Aerodynamics/CoG etc)

I dont know but it appears to me that MLU's for Rafale will have a looming concern regarding the space constraints for both the Radars and Engines.... do let me know your thoughts Halloweene as I m sure you are better placed to point out Dassaults' options (Im sure they have some)
In fact the first limitating factor was the coolanol pump, which seems to have been fixed (on UAE requirements). I can always ask to Dassault, but although they privately admit they know they have an idea of what Rafale will look like in 15 years, they are very sparse on details.
That's why i tried to give you a very prudent answer, quoting facts on one side and my opinions apart. For three main reasons

-classified
-It is not Dassault that will decide, but DGA (the procurement agency),
- It will be made in accordance with IAF.

Btw the size of the nose is dictated by operational reasons : Navy pilots tend to love seeing where they are landing... But do not forget that some of the functions dedicated to radar on F-35 (for example) are taken in charge by extra antennas on Rafale. It is certainly easier to do a job with a larger antenna, but i wouldn't reduce a radar performance to sheer size.
 

p2prada

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Google translation

The first part of the feasibility phase of the Franco-British project FCAS and will be for the future system demonstrator UCAV (UCAS).
Don't tell me you guys are going to build another demonstrator after Neuron and Taranis.
 

halloweene

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Either you didn't understand 'ASH' or you knows it, but are not ready to accept it here.

They are adding few F-18 G's abilities in F/A-18 E,F. They are trying to make a hybrid aircraft.

With two new CFTs, ASH's combat radius will be 1296 kms. On top of it three EWPs (each with 4 weapons in it) and two sidewinders, total 14 weapons in all.

All these at nearly $55-60 million each FAW cost. This price depends on which options we are looking at.
In fact i perfectly understand ASH, and it should be a formidable fighter... If it exists one day. I'm an admirer of F-18 btw.
BUT
No they are not implementing Growler like capabilities "inside" ASH . NGJ is a separate project.
YES they want to implement an inner IRST Which is a great thing.
YES they tested dummy CFT, apparently with success (take those data carefully, as they carefully chose a specific speed/altitude so as to present it the best way). Which is not really a very good point of F18 E/F aerodynamics btw ....
YES they propose a weapon pod, Great!
and finally YES they will implement a proper data fusion, lacking on present F18.
NO it won't cost 55/60 millions despite Boeing claims. Take a look at US procurement documents (they are online)...

In the end, WHO will pay for these developments?
 

halloweene

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Don't tell me you guys are going to build another demonstrator after Neuron and Taranis.
Neuron and Taranis were demonstrators. Btw NeuroN will soon start its "shooting" campaign but sshhh

EFCAS is sensed to be future operational UCAS.
 

Zebra

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In fact i perfectly understand ASH, and it should be a formidable fighter... If it exists one day. I'm an admirer of F-18 btw.
BUT
No they are not implementing Growler like capabilities "inside" ASH . NGJ is a separate project.
YES they want to implement an inner IRST Which is a great thing.
YES they tested dummy CFT, apparently with success (take those data carefully, as they carefully chose a specific speed/altitude so as to present it the best way). Which is not really a very good point of F18 E/F aerodynamics btw ....
YES they propose a weapon pod, Great!
and finally YES they will implement a proper data fusion, lacking on present F18.
NO it won't cost 55/60 millions despite Boeing claims. Take a look at US procurement documents (they are online)...

In the end, WHO will pay for these developments?
OK, tell me what does it mean........
The entire menu of upgrades could be developed for less than $1 billion, says Mike Gibbons, vice president of the Super Hornet and Growler programs for Boeing. If the service were to buy new F/A-18s with the upgrades, the cost would be roughly about $56 million, or 10% higher than the most recent flyaway cost in the third multiyear buy cited by the company of $51 million (this price includes the aircraft, both engines and electronic warfare gear).
Boeing Targeting U.S. Navy For Super Hornet Upgrades | AWIN content from Aviation Week
 

Immanuel

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The Growler is a dedicated EW/EA aircraft with a proper SEAD weapon HARM-E, last I heard Rafale doesn't have a dedicated SEAD weapon and has to rely on cruise missiles for SEAD missions. When it comes to cruise missiles, the SH can deploy the JASSM-ER out to over 900 km+ allowing it to have longer strike reach than the Rafale. A full spec growler will even jam the Rafale. Spectra's jamming capabilties are limited to combat aircraft and some air to ground radars while the Growler overwhelms with its jamming power usually carries more than just 1 jammer. NG Jammer will only be more powerful. Actually silly to be claiming GaN and it being on the Rafale as an advantage, speaking in terms of first comes, SH had an AESA back in 2005 and has been combat proven, they are now looking to make the AESA only better.


Brazil – F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency

Well the SH fly away price has always been lower than the Rafale, it appears some here are the ones who have no clue, lets not even go there, SH offers have been consistently lower in every competition, in the Indian context there is additional gain due to savings from engine commonality which over a llifetime of 40 years for the 200 LCA mk-2 and 125 SH+ and well over 600 engines would save around 3 billion or more.

Consider the Brazilian deal; the cost of 36 SH Block 2 + service/maintenance charges over a lifetime and some weapons came down to roughly 7.6 billion+ i.e 210 million over a life time including some weapons while the Rafale clearly is far more expensive, the lowest offer for brazil being 10.2 billion (perhaps including some weapons not clear) i.e over 280 milion a bird. That is around 70 million difference in cost per bird.

France Cuts Rafale Price To Win Brazil Deal: Paper | Defense News | defensenews.com

Navy pleased with "Advanced" Super Hornet tests, wants more Growlers - 4/7/2014 - Flight Global

Sure the Block 3 Super hornet will have some additional costs but never more than the Rafale. Also With the advancements coming on the Block 3 i.e new gen IRST/Large Panel Display, new MAWS, Spherical Laser warning system/ EPE engines etc. SH will be superior at 2018 to the Rafale at 2018 which is when the MRCA will arive in if the Rafale deal is closed by this year fiscal. MLU Block 4 hornet would be even better, the aircraft's entire airframe can be changed to have new gen lighter materials, TVC, enhance engines and build on already great tech.

The Large Panel Display + the new avionics coming up alone trump the rafale and make the pilot's life easier.
 
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Immanuel

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That said, I understand the ship for the SH has passed, too late in the day, Rafale did based on tests in 2010 clear trials and SH failed at that moment to did not meet some of the requirements. Rafale is the fighter that India should focus on this day, the best that can happen is to recieve a big discount on its cost based on an increase in direct orders from 126 to 200 and they should wrap this deal up by end of this year fiscal, beyond that, Rafale is just inadequate, the F-35 offers far superior avionics than Rafale & it is better suited for India's eventual needs vis a vis INS Vishal circa 2025/ 4 Amphibious Assault Ships etc. If we can get 200 Rafales for 30 billion, I say go ahead sign the deal and bite the bitter pil. We would atleast have a good aircraft and good numbers. Focus then should be indegenous weapons for it.
 
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Punya Pratap

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In fact the first limitating factor was the coolanol pump, which seems to have been fixed (on UAE requirements). I can always ask to Dassault, but although they privately admit they know they have an idea of what Rafale will look like in 15 years, they are very sparse on details.
That's why i tried to give you a very prudent answer, quoting facts on one side and my opinions apart. For three main reasons

-classified
-It is not Dassault that will decide, but DGA (the procurement agency),
- It will be made in accordance with IAF.

Btw the size of the nose is dictated by operational reasons : Navy pilots tend to love seeing where they are landing... But do not forget that some of the functions dedicated to radar on F-35 (for example) are taken in charge by extra antennas on Rafale. It is certainly easier to do a job with a larger antenna, but i wouldn't reduce a radar performance to sheer size.
Understood and appreciate your cooperation... was just wondering about the Radar and Engine MLU options for Rafale since we hardly have any details of the MMRCA procurement from MoD / IAF for much the same reason as provided by you !

The second problem here is Indian Air Force/ MoD are doing a deal of this kind for the first time so I dont know whether they have tied up all the loose ends including Life Cycle costs and how to calculate that. Having said that there are three committees wrecking their brains over the MMRCA deal so hopefully we will hear something soon!
 

p2prada

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That price is for the USN. And EW suite in the Super Hornet is different from the Growler.

What the Growler carries is entirely different.

This is a Growler.


Do you see those pods hanging off the aircraft? Those are not available for export.

AERO INDIA: Boeing reveals plans for 'Growler Lite' - 2/13/2009 - Flight Global
Boeing plans to market an EA-18G "Growler Lite" tailored for an "electronic awareness" role rather than attack.

"There is some interest in having just the awareness, not the attack," says Bob Gower, Boeing vice president F/A-18 and EA-18 programmes, speaking at the Aero India airshow in Bangalore. "This came from discussions with customers," he adds.
What it means is the aircraft is not the Growler. Without those pods, the aircraft is worthless.

As the article says the ALQ-99 pods are no longer in production. The Americans have launched a new program called NGJ which is again not available for export.

The EW suite offered for export is a basic suite which is far inferior to Spectra. You can say it is at least more than a generation behind Spectra. LCA's EW suite is more advanced than the one on SH B2 today.
 

p2prada

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The Growler is a dedicated EW/EA aircraft with a proper SEAD weapon HARM-E, last I heard Rafale doesn't have a dedicated SEAD weapon and has to rely on cruise missiles for SEAD missions.
The KH-31P will be available for Indian Rafale. Harm-E is inferior to Krypton.

When it comes to cruise missiles, the SH can deploy the JASSM-ER out to over 900 km+ allowing it to have longer strike reach than the Rafale.
Not available for export. We will have Nirbhay, the platform doesn't make a difference.

You are talking about USN vs ALA/MN rather than Indian SH vs Indian Rafale.

Well the SH fly away price has always been lower than the Rafale, it appears some here are the ones who have no clue, lets not even go there, SH offers have been consistently lower in every competition, in the Indian context there is additional gain due to savings from engine commonality which over a llifetime of 40 years for the 200 LCA mk-2 and 125 SH+ and well over 600 engines would save around 3 billion or more.
An inferior aircraft will have a smaller price tag. Anyway the difference between an inferior SH and superior Rafale is only $15 Million looking at the price offered to India.

Sure the Block 3 Super hornet will have some additional costs but never more than the Rafale. Also With the advancements coming on the Block 3 i.e new gen IRST/Large Panel Display, new MAWS, Spherical Laser warning system/ EPE engines etc.
All this stuff, Rafale already has all of this, including the new MAWS. Rafale's engine is better than EPE. EPE has a 2000 hour service life compared to 8000 hours on the M88-4E.

MLU Block 4 hornet would be even better, the aircraft's entire airframe can be changed to have new gen lighter materials, TVC, enhance engines and build on already great tech.
Who's going to pay for all this? The French have already developed the full spec Rafale.
 

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