Know Your 'Rafale'

Punya Pratap

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I will repeat again. Snecma had nothing to do with the failure of Marut. It was the British, us and the Egyptians to blame.

Everybody was approached for engines, everybody refused. That doesn't mean only Snecma is to blame.
P2Prada I am talking about the coincidences that relate to the Marut and Tejas...I m not blaming Snecma but stating that Snecma was an actor in Marut saga and Tejas Saga. By the way do you know whatever reasons existed for Snecma to refuse the engining for Marut??
 

p2prada

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K 10 was conceived to be the MLU for Tejas
No. Kaveri was completely delinked from LCA. There are no MLUs with this engine. MoD rejected that proposal from GTRE.

Like I said, F414 will remain the engine for LCA for the rest of its life.

and as long as there are 4th Gen & 4.5 th Gen planes flying in India and 3rd world country k10 will have plenty of scope.
IAF doesn't care about exports.

You cannot expect GTRE or any other Indian establishment to take an elevator to the top floor and design a 5th Gen engine with the parameters you are stating IAF set for K10.
That's why GTRE will continue developing the Kaveri.

The issue of K10 is brought up by me to highlight how the whole Tejas saga has unfolded and how interested parties manipulate... I am not supporting GTRE or IAF here but laying out the fact.

As I stated earlier we have messed up big time thanks to IAF/GTRE
Again? How is IAF to blame? More conspiracy?
 

p2prada

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P2Prada I am talking about the coincidences that relate to the Marut and Tejas...I m not blaming Snecma but stating that Snecma was an actor in Marut saga and Tejas Saga.
It's not coincidence. It is a conspiracy theory. Snecma flatly refused to give away engine technology. So, how did they stall Marut?

By the way do you know whatever reasons existed for Snecma to refuse the engining for Marut??
We asked for the engine, they politely said, "F off!"

You can buy an engine, you can't buy technology. Everybody refused to part with technology.
 

Punya Pratap

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p2prada I suppose you have nt read my entire post about Marut? I said as an old IAF hand was reminiscing he started drawing the similarities between Marut and Tejas.

As for the MLU I quote as per below from GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In December 2009, Kaveri-Snecma JV was trying Back-door Entry In LCA. The People's Post reported that GTRE has agreed to de-link Kaveri from LCA, but has put in a proposal that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the IAF, get phased out should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma engine, in future.

Snecma did not refuse for engines....we did not have the money to fund the JV and by the way the Orpheus was brought into the picture after the Egyptians E 300 failed as mentioned below:

Assembly of the first HF-24 prototype began in April 1960. It flew for the first time on June 17, 1961, and made its first official flight a week later for the Indian Defence Minister. Meanwhile, the Indian government initiated a lengthy and ultimately unsuccessful search for an alternative power plant. In late 1961 they imported six Soviet Tumansky RD-9F engines used in the MiG-19 fighter, but they were rejected in 1963 because they were prone to surging and its overhaul life was unacceptably short.

The Egyptian E-300 turbojet was considered, but it failed to live up to expectations and was dropped. Bristol Siddeley proposed a new engine in 1964 but again the Indian government refused to underwrite development costs. Same happened with Snecma where GoI refused the funds
 

ersakthivel

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Beg to differ with you p2prada coz K 10 was supposed to be like Brahmos JV as I have been led to believe. Secondly the IAF's objection about a mating of Eco Core to Kaveri was all hedging for Rafael. If you read the link I posted earlier Snecma was willing earlier coz they also stood to gain with a new higher thrust engine

I quote from this link : The Failed Negotiations with Snecma for Engine Technology

MoD then began negotiations with Snecma for a joint venture for the development of the Kaveri. Minister of State for DefencePallamRajutold Business Standard: "(Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet(the maker of the Typhoon's engine) or GE." This was misleading. GE and Eurojet were not contenders for the collaboration with GTRE. The technology they were offering was part of a deal for the import of 99 engines for the LCA Mark II. The kind of technologies sought for the collaboration on the Kaveri engine were not sought for this deal. Officially, no specifics of what technologies Snecma would offer have been disclosed. A senior DRDO official said two years ago that the work share between GTRE and Snecma would be 50:50; that price negotiations would be completed "within a month"; and that GTRE would gain the intellectual property rights for the new engine. Aviation Week reported in March 2012 that an agreement on the joint venture to develop and build a 20,230-lb-thrust engine would be reached by June that year. Snecma would provide "exhaustive know-how" on the technologies and manufacturing processes GTRE lacked, the sources for the report claimed.


ALSO NOTE BELOW THE POSTURING OF PARTIES INVOLVED AS PER ACM RAJKUMAR

As Air Marshall Philip Rajkumar (rtd.) recounts in his book The Tejas Story, the DRDO and the IAF had a falling out in the 1980s over the choice of partners for developing the LCA's flight control system. The IAF wanted to go with Dassault, while the DRDO preferred Lockheed Martin. This disagreement had caused the IAF to wage a decades-long cold war against the DRDO and the LCA project in particular. Quite possibly,DRDO bought peace with the IAF by accepting the latter's preference for Snecma.

THE REASON WHY IAF WANTED SNECMA IS COZ THEY PLAYED ALONG WITH IAF WHO WANTED TO KILL THE KAVERI SO THEY COULD GET MMRCA & SNECMA THE MONEY OUT OF IT!!

I quote below from this link : DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project - The Hindu

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: "Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it."

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of "the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF's requirements."

THE IAF FIRST SAID THE K 10 WILL TAKE VERY LONG SINCE SNECMA SAID IT WILL TAKE GTRE 15 YEARS BUT THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY SNECMA CEO CONTRADICTS IAF CLAIMS.

SECOND CLAIM WAS ECO CORE CANNOT BE USED SINCE AS PER IAF IT WONT PRODUCE MORE THAN 2000 lbs THRUST AND THERE IS NO FURTHER POTENTIAL TO ECO CORE....READ MY WORDS THE ECO CORE WILL BE THE BASE FOR THE NEXT HIGHER THRUST ENGINE OF SNECMA ONLY MMRCA DEAL WILL BE FUNDING THAT DEVELOPMENT AND FRENCH WOULD BENIFIT NOT GTRE OR TEJAS!!!
Shortly after the cancellation of this JV GTRE chief was arrested in a spa on frivolous charges and unceremoniously bundled out of the job, while IAF retired brass are cooling their heels with ambassadorships abroad!!!!

The ex GTRE chief Mohan Rao had twenty years of experience in K-9 development, Considering the value of guys like him to he country, I dont know how the UPA joint allowed such an experienced man to be bundled out of a critical project in such spurious manner. he was arrested by karnataka police on some counts of impropriety , but he claimed that he was there to buy medicinal stuff for his wife.

This guy was critical in the GTRE-Snecma negotiations.

I recall the treatment meted out to Nambi narayanan of ISRO's GSLV project. And the deep seated conspiracy hatched abroad to scuttle the ISRO's Cryogenic engine project and successfully put into action with the help of some unscrupulous elements of Kerala police. Hope nothing like that lurks behind the incident.

And there is no way any one can argue to support IAF's view on K-10 JV as thrust alone is not the be all and end all of engines, operating pressure ratio, acceleration,and engine thrust to weight ratio along with SCB and Ceramic matrix tech are priceless items which needs decades of experience to master.

The 100 plus mig-29s in navy and IAF will also benefit from this engine as it has lesser weight and similar thrust level.

With the upcoming Aura project will also benefit immensely from this project.

Atleast for decade long fly by wire and airframe evaluation AMCA could have used this engine.(In the same manner rafale used the engine GE-404 (same one on tejas mk1!!!)in the decade long rafale flight test program )

And how did IAF conclude that a package of all this techs were not needed for this country and strangulated the JV with the help of pliant corrupt govt of the day?

navy is funding the k9 for marine application. his K-10 would have also found application there.

it is a mystery why the tech illiterate retiring mig-21 drivers of IAF are allowed to kill this vital engine program for the country.

many informed voices in that time also questioned the motive of higher civilian leadership and IAF in this k-10 kill.

Hope one day truth comes out from the dark alley revealing who were the guys instrumental in this monumental act of stupidity.

Ia IAF did not want that engine for tejas mk2, nothing wrong with that. No one held their hand and stopped them from going for GE-414 tejas mk2?(infact it was the navy which got this mk2 project going with the timely seed money of 1000 crores to ADA in 2009, not IAF)

After all Kavery was delinked from Tejas program long back , then why did IAF hurl the false accusation on DRDO "of trying to sabotage the project teja mk2?"

They had no right to ask for the cancellation of this JV.

Another interesting titbit on why ADA went for LM instead of Dassualt is,that dassault wanted to palm off the analogue digital fly by wire tech they developed for mirage-2000 to ADA and did not want to partner the ADA for the new age Digital fly by wire tech.

And treated ADA scientist with the monumental arrogance knowing fully well with the IAF's backing they will get the consultancy for tejas. perplexed by this uncooperative attitude from Dassault ADA approached the govt to have LM consultancy and now we have the digital fly by wire tech for tejas and all other projects in future.

Note while failing to co operate with ADA on digital fly by wire tech, Dassault has developed and put the same tech on rafale and selling it for 20 billions!!!

This incident is a slap in the face for many guys who are peddling that the 70 percent TOT for rafale would help in AMCA. there were rumours that dassault did not want the experienced HAL to have any part in the indian rafale production and wanted to partner with a indian private sectror giant that did not even manufacture a screw !!!!

Only God knows how much tech will get transferred to this private sector giant in just ten years of rafale production? Sensing the foul play GOI finally out its foot down and now dassault is singing the praise of HAL "valuing decades long parnership in Mirage-2000 support!!!!"

There are some various interesting plots and sub plots executed by shadowy people in he three combined deals of rafale, gtre-snecma and costly mirage-2000 upgrade.

But as usual the ultimate score card reads 3-0 in favor of Dassault Vs indian mil aviation sector!!!

With the superfluous buy of rafale at a staggering 20 billion plus cost for just 6 squadrons(whose job can easily be done by su-30 MKIs and super sukhois in combination with 4.5th gen tech tejas mk2 and mk1!!!),

milking the future IAF budgets dry and killing the prospect of 300 plus tejas mk2 in service,

with the prospect of taking each and every fighter in IAF fleet close to the level of gripen NG or f-16 block 52 tech level ,

with massive improvement in countries air defence capability.

are all sought to be killed off by IAF top brass.
 
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ersakthivel

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p2prada I suppose you have nt read my entire post about Marut? I said as an old IAF hand was reminiscing he started drawing the similarities between Marut and Tejas.

As for the MLU I quote as per below from GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In December 2009, Kaveri-Snecma JV was trying Back-door Entry In LCA. The People's Post reported that GTRE has agreed to de-link Kaveri from LCA, but has put in a proposal that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the IAF, get phased out should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma engine, in future.

Snecma did not refuse for engines....we did not have the money to fund the JV and by the way the Orpheus was brought into the picture after the Egyptians E 300 failed as mentioned below:

Assembly of the first HF-24 prototype began in April 1960. It flew for the first time on June 17, 1961, and made its first official flight a week later for the Indian Defence Minister. Meanwhile, the Indian government initiated a lengthy and ultimately unsuccessful search for an alternative power plant. In late 1961 they imported six Soviet Tumansky RD-9F engines used in the MiG-19 fighter, but they were rejected in 1963 because they were prone to surging and its overhaul life was unacceptably short.

The Egyptian E-300 turbojet was considered, but it failed to live up to expectations and was dropped. Bristol Siddeley proposed a new engine in 1964 but again the Indian government refused to underwrite development costs. Same happened with Snecma where GoI refused the funds
And mysteriously the govt of the day refused to fund the bristol siddley offer to design a high thrust engine for HF-24 Marut, with the aim of saving a princely sum of 5 crore fees asked for by the firm!!!!

No one knows why it was done.

And we can read the wikileaks reports on who fronted for which foreign fighter in the indian DPSA project, which ultimately ended up in the procurement of jags with faulty unsuable navigation attack system which had to be corrected with local innovation.
 

ersakthivel

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Thank you for information about ADA lies, didn't know this was going on.

About DPP, it was possible for the government to approach directly to the government of France for MRCA deal. Even after DPP program was introduced, lots of intergovernmental deals have happened which had single vendor situations. Also there is a question of increased costs such as additional logistics for a new platform, tactics prep, pilot training, long time taken in case of tender, etc. I am not saying that IAF should have simply scrapped MRCA tender. But I am surprised by the fact that above factors were not considered while deciding to go a tender. This clearly indicates lack of planning somewhere. But then whats done is done, and closing Rafale deal is our best bet.
Most of the vayu articles are devoid of truth and reflect the views of imported airforce in the long running saga of IAF vs ADA. It is no secret.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/18521-ada-tejas-lca-iii-248.html

Monumentally stupid article on tejas by a famous mother in law of tejas being ripped apart in the above page.

i
 
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Drsomnath999

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Re: why RBE2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evaluat

This couldn't have been such a bad idea. Two threads with a lot of information on the same subject are better kept together. Why get so emotional about it?
LOLLLZ emotional
Pfft!!

. I find this hypocritical in regards to moderation of this forum where they have double standards in creation of threads

on one hand there is a separate live going thread going on in relation to this bharat karnard crap
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/62407-why-rafale-big-mistake.html

despite having a dedicated thread regarding MMRCA
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca.html

& here one cant post a separate thread for why rbe 2 aesa radar was the most safest bet for india 's MMRCA evaluations :lol:

BTW is this really an information thread about rafale Seriously

just look at the last 7 pages of this thread , this thread has turnout to be a rafale bashing or D^ck waving thread between rafale supporters & LCA
supporters .

i just request you to merge this thread with this thread ,
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca.html

becoz no one is interested here to learn about rafale rather they are more interested to do D^CK waving

& I thankfully say it's a privilege for me


to be a part of this forum &


to inform all the readers about the best info


one can get about RAFALE


REGARDS
 
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p2prada

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p2prada I suppose you have nt read my entire post about Marut? I said as an old IAF hand was reminiscing he started drawing the similarities between Marut and Tejas.

As for the MLU I quote as per below from GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In December 2009, Kaveri-Snecma JV was trying Back-door Entry In LCA. The People's Post reported that GTRE has agreed to de-link Kaveri from LCA, but has put in a proposal that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the IAF, get phased out should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma engine, in future.
You are seeing conspiracies where none exist. Nobody was willing to give away any technology. All the talks of JVs were a sham. They wanted us to buy existing engines, and none of them could be equipped on Marut.

Snecma did nothing, they directly told F off. The British made it look like they were willing to assist, but that was all talk. There were no agreements, no proposals. All the European countries wanted to sell Jaguar or Viggen or Mirage to the IAF.

The European countries assisted by only selling the engines. They were even willing to sell new Jaguar engines for a Mk2 version of Marut, but we didn't have the money to continue the program. We couldn't even retain Kurt Tank. He ran back to Germany once he realized Marut had no hope. At the time we were busy trying to build up our military due to the continuous waves of wars we were facing. It made financial sense to just buy the entire aircraft than go for sketchy development that came with little or no assistance.

Why do you think we are buying engines rather than developing new engines for LCA Mk2? Because it is an utter waste of time and resources. If ADA was such a great champion of indigenization, why were they the ones who rejected Kaveri? IAF didn't reject Kaveri for LCA, it was ADA. So, why are you targeting IAF, and even Snecma? Neither had anything to do with the decision on Kaveri.

You have brainwashed yourself into believing there is nothing wrong with our DPSUs but everything is wrong with the IAF and the foreigners. The IAF is not run by a bunch of fools like you are assuming.
 

ersakthivel

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You are seeing conspiracies where none exist. Nobody was willing to give away any technology. All the talks of JVs were a sham. They wanted us to buy existing engines, and none of them could be equipped on Marut.

Snecma did nothing, they directly told F off. The British made it look like they were willing to assist, but that was all talk. There were no agreements, no proposals. All the European countries wanted to sell Jaguar or Viggen or Mirage to the IAF.

The European countries assisted by only selling the engines. They were even willing to sell new Jaguar engines for a Mk2 version of Marut, but we didn't have the money to continue the program. We couldn't even retain Kurt Tank. He ran back to Germany once he realized Marut had no hope. At the time we were busy trying to build up our military due to the continuous waves of wars we were facing. It made financial sense to just buy the entire aircraft than go for sketchy development that came with little or no assistance.

Why do you think we are buying engines rather than developing new engines for LCA Mk2? Because it is an utter waste of time and resources. If ADA was such a great champion of indigenization, why were they the ones who rejected Kaveri? IAF didn't reject Kaveri for LCA, it was ADA. So, why are you targeting IAF, and even Snecma? Neither had anything to do with the decision on Kaveri.

You have brainwashed yourself into believing there is nothing wrong with our DPSUs but everything is wrong with the IAF and the foreigners. The IAF is not run by a bunch of fools like you are assuming.
We dont have the money fro engine development , but we had the money for buying entire foreign made fighter.

It was the GOI who shot down the bristol siddley proposal to develop a higher powered orpheus engine for marut.

What was asked from bristol siddley at that stage by HAL was not any TOT to make the engine. Just a proposal to fund the developmental program, so that a new engine can be bought for marut. As simple and plain as that.

Kaveri was delinked from tejas program. period.
And will follow its own timetable with GE engien as far as ADA and IAF was concerned,

The GTRE-snecma JV was not an attempt at stealing anybody's bread, which had to be nipped in the bud with such haste by IAF.

If at all GTRE came up with a good engine later date with any form of JV for either mk1 or mk2 which needs no redevelopment of tejas , why should anybody be upset over that?

And why should any one in IAF worry whether GTRE has learned enough from such JV?

How much HAL learned from FGFA JV?

Will IAF also ask for scrapping of FGFA on the same reason of HAL not learning anything from SUkhoi?

Will IAF also ask for scrapping rafale deal , if no indian entity learns anything useful like GAN module manufacturing or Single crystal blade manufacturing?

Why two different standards for tejas and all other foreign buys?
 
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ersakthivel

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Re: why RBE2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evaluat

LOLLLZ emotional
Pfft!!

. I find this hypocritical in regards to moderation of this forum where they have double standards in creation of threads

on one hand there is a separate live going thread going on in relation to this bharat karnard crap
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/62407-why-rafale-big-mistake.html

despite having a dedicated thread regarding MMRCA
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca.html

& here one cant post a separate thread for why rbe 2 aesa radar was the most safest bet for india 's MMRCA evaluations :lol:

BTW is this really an information thread about rafale Seriously

just look at the last 7 pages of this thread , this thread has turnout to be a rafale bashing or D^ck waving thread between rafale supporters & LCA
supporters .

i just request you to merge this thread with this thread ,
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/31082-dassault-rafale-wins-mmrca.html

becoz no one is interested here to learn about rafale rather they are more interested to do D^CK waving

& I thankfully say it's a privilege for me


to be a part of this forum &


to inform all the readers about the best info


one can get about RAFALE


REGARDS
Considering the kind of d^ck waving that is going on for years in Tejas threads here, you ain't seen anything yet!!!

cheers,
 

Punya Pratap

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@ p2prada, I love conspiracy theories coz a lot of it flies around where I live :p

Cant help taking a dig coz you apparently believe everything is hunky dory..... I know you are going to refute the below article but what the h*ll I might as well wind you up ;)

France's War in Mali. Was it Started to Sell the New Rafale Fighter Jet? | Libya 360°

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France's War in Mali. Was it Started to Sell the New Rafale Fighter Jet?
Alexandra Valiente / February 20, 2013


A $12 billion 'deal of the century' with India may point to the real reason why France launched its African war.

Finnian Cunningham

More than a century ago, William Randolph Hearst, one of America's most formidable newspaper magnates, instinctively realized the maxim: war is good for business; war sells.

In 1897, in the midst of a newspaper circulation battle with his archrival Joseph Pulitzer, Hearst dispatched journalists to Cuba to cover that country's War of Independence against colonial Spain. There was an expectation that the United States of America would soon become embroiled in what would be its first major overseas conflict.

Soon after arriving in Cuba, however, Hearst's front-page artist, Frederic Remington, dampened belligerent expectation when he telegrammed his boss with the message: «There will be no war. I wish to return». An exasperated Hearst is reputed to have replied tersely: «You furnish the pictures. I will furnish the war».

Within months, the USS Maine battleship was mysteriously blown up in Havana Harbor and US President William McKinley declared the beginning of the Spanish-American War. The war would turn the US into an imperialist power expanding its territorial possessions in the Caribbean and Pacific. And it helped build Hearst's publishing empire, turning him into one of the wealthiest newspaper barons.

Today, looking at France's five-week-old military offensive in Africa and a mega international weapons deal in the offing, a refrain of the Hearst maxim could be: «You provide the fighter jets. I will furnish the war».

Only four days after France began bombing the West African country of Mali on 11 January with state-of-the-art Rafale fighter jets, President Francois Hollande and his foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, made a rather odd-looking trip to the United Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf.

Such high-profile official visits are usually scheduled months in advance, that is true. So, perhaps Paris felt obliged to fulfill its engagement with the Arab monarchs. But, nevertheless, given the precarious development of France's «unexpected» war in Mali, only days before, it seemed incongruous that the French president and his top foreign diplomat chose not to postpone their one-day trip to the UAE – especially given that the latter is hardly a major venue on the world political stage.

Surely, the Arab hosts would have understood if Hollande's deputy, Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault had stepped-in instead, given the president's presumably pressing war concerns in Africa?

The urgent nature of the French delegation to Abu Dhabi and Dubai soon transpired. From media reports, top of the French agenda in the oil-rich emirates was a certain matter of business: a deal to sell the sheikhs Rafale fighter jets – the same fighter jets that were spearheading France's «surprise» full-scale military intervention in Mali"¦

With remarkable nonchalance, the New York Times reported on 15 January: «By a quirk of timing, Hollande's trip to the United Arab Emirates is aimed primarily at selling Rafale fighter jets like those that have been involved in bombing Islamist rebel bases in Mali». The paper went on: «France is keen to make its first foreign sale of the Rafale, which has struggled to find buyers, to support a project that has cost tens of billions of euros».

Lucky coincidence strains credulity, as the New York Times and other media reports blithely suggested then of Hollande's visit to the UAE.

Bear in mind, too, that the Persian Gulf, with its petrodollar-flush kingdoms, is the world's foremost arms bazaar. The UAE along with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar are some of the biggest customers for the global weapons industry. Figures from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute show that the UAE is the world's number one arms buyer per capita. In absolute terms, the United Arab Emirates, with a population of just 8 million, is third in the world behind China and India in ranking for the total value of weapons imported. In other words, an astoundingly lucrative arms market. No wonder Hollande and Foreign Minister Fabius were beating a path to the Gulf.

During their one-day trip to the UAE, Hollande and Fabius sounded like salesmen, emphasizing the operational capabilities of France's multi-role combat aircraft. «They have hit all their targets,» the French president declared proudly, as the Rafale jets pounded towns and cities across central and northern Mali. Not mentioned, of course, were the much-underreported deaths of civilians from the French air strikes in its former African colony.

But, as it turns out, the French sales pitch in the Persian Gulf was only a rehearsal for the real fighter-jet bonanza to come. Last week, one month after Operation Serval began in Mali, the French president flew to India for a high-powered two-day visit joined by a phalanx of officials. This was Hollande's first overseas visit outside Europe and French-speaking Africa since his election last year.

On this occasion, Hollande was accompanied in India by Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and four other cabinet members, including Laurent Fabius. Also in tow were more than 60 leaders of French commercial companies.

Arriving on 14 February and greeted by Indian premier Manmohan Singh, French English-language broadcaster France 24 reported the importance of Hollande's purpose in no uncertain terms: «The two-day visit will be dominated by trade issues, including a $12-billion contract for Rafale fighter jets, dubbed 'the deal of the century' in France».

That contract, expected to be finalized next year, involves the sale of 126 Rafale warplanes to India's air force by the French manufacturer Dassault, with a possible follow-up purchase of 63 more such fighter jets. The sale, if it goes through, would represent the biggest military aviation purchase ever signed between two countries.

Putting the value of the Rafale sale to India in perspective, it gives a badly needed boost to the French economy sagging from a 16-year-high 10-11 per cent unemployment rate and a huge trade deficit. If the Rafale deal with India were signed off, that item alone ($12bn) would go a long way to rectifying France's $90bn trade deficit, secure thousands of French jobs, and not to mention rescuing Hollande from his post-election slump in public opinion polls.

Again, the importance of France's combat deployment of the Rafale jets in Mali cannot be underestimated in pushing the French «deal of the century» in India. What better way to convince prospective Indian buyers of the reliable advantages of this expensive hardware than to showcase it in «live action»?

As with the New York Times' remarkably casual report on the French trip to the UAE, France 24 naively says of Hollande's Rafale-jet-promotion visit to India: «In a welcome stroke of serendipity for Paris, the [Rafale] planes in question came into the media spotlight only last month when rapid air strikes on Islamist militants in Mali played a vital role in the whirlwind offensive to drive them from the West African nation's vast northern territory».

Revealingly, France 24 quotes its international affairs correspondent Leela Jacinto commenting: «The French have been trying to sell these very expensive jets to any taker with no success. The mission in Mali allowed them to showcase the Rafale fighter jets».

But the promotional assets of war for selling the French fighter jet most likely pre-dates the current Mali offensive. This tawdry tales goes back to the NATO bombing campaign in Libya during 2011, which culminated in the overthrow and murder of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, and erstwhile friend of French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Two days after the United Nations Security Council resolution to implement a no-fly zone in Libya, French warplanes were leading the way for NATO in an unprecedented seven-month aerial bombing campaign. Resolution number 1973 was issued on 17 March 2011. On 19 March, French warplanes were bombing Gaddafi forces outside Benghazi – a military escalation that many legal analysts point out was not mandated by the UNSC resolution to set up a no-fly zone. The French piece de resistance in this air campaign was the Rafale fighter jet.

Tellingly, the usually gung-ho Americans were seen to be lagging behind the Europeans in the Libya operation. Leading the NATO aerial charge, along with the French Rafale jets, were Britain's new Typhoon fighter bombers. The Typhoon, also known as the Eurofighter, is built by a consortium of British Aerospace and partner companies from Germany, Spain and Italy. It is a close competitor of the French warplane for global markets.

Before NATO's bombing spectacle in Libya got underway, the French-made Rafale and Britain's Typhoon had already been short-listed by India from out of six tenders for the record fighter-jet contract.

Eight months after NATO's blitzkrieg on Libya, the government of India announced that it was opting for the Rafale.

«For Dassault's Rafale and Eurofighter's Typhoon, the conflict to unseat Libyan dictator Colonel Muammer Gaddafi helped to decide the biggest jet fighter tender ever,» reported The Financial Times on 7 July 2012. «In fact the Typhoon and Rafale both performed well over Tripoli, bolstering confidence on both sides that they are the better aircraft. In the end, the French [warplanes] were quicker and that, say analysts, helped nudge India's decision towards Dassault's Rafale».

That's not the end of the affair. Even though the French seemed to have clinched the fighter jet mega deal with India last July, the British have not given up hope on snatching the prize away from their rival.

Indeed, this week, hot on the heels of Hollande's visit last week to New Delhi, British Prime Minister David Cameron was in India, fronting the biggest overseas trade delegation, according to spokesmen in Downing Street. Accompanying Cameron were four government ministers and representatives of over 100 British industries and businesses, including British Aerospace.

The main prize for Cameron is to dissuade India from finalising the French fighter jet deal and to award the contract to the British-made Typhoon.

«PM is last-ditch bid for India fighter deal,» headlined the Financial Times, which added that Cameron was trying to snatch the contract «from under the nose of French president Francoise Hollande».

The Guardian quoted a Downing Street spokesman as saying: «We respect [sic] the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter [Typhoon] as a great fast jet, not just in India but around the world».

Given the magnitude of the aviation deal with India and other potential buyers, it can be safely assumed that the British have not been «respecting» the French rival, but rather have been lobbying New Delhi intensely ever since the Indian government signaled last year that is was opting for the Rafale. With that pressure bearing down on the French, it is not inconceivable that deployment of its warplane in the challenging environment of Mali would have been a timely reminder to India of the aircrafts' military capabilities, as they had earlier noted during NATO's previous war on Libya.

It should be recalled that France's military intervention in Mali – as with NATO's bombing of Libya – was not authorized by the UN Security Council. The latter only gave a qualified approval last December for the deployment of an African-led mission to Mali under the auspices of the Economic Community of West Africa (ECOWAS), which was envisaged to take place in September later this year. The French jumped the gun. Why?

The official French rationale for launching its sudden offensive in West Africa – defending Europe's security from Islamist terrorism – does not quite ring true. After all, the radical militants it is supposedly combating in Mali are the same, or are closely related to, the Mujahideen militants in Libya that the Rafale fighter jets were providing air cover for in 2011. These same elements are also linked to Sunni extremists that France and other NATO states are supporting in Syria to overthrow the Assad government in Damascus. Clearly, the official French rationale applied to Mali does not add up.

But a «sale of the century» hanging in the balance involving fighter jets worth $12 billion? Now, that does make sense. As William Randolph Hearst might have said: «You furnish the fighter jets. I'll furnish the war».
 

Punya Pratap

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And to add further delight to the french faction :

Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | idrw.org

Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry
Published August 18, 2014 | By admin
SOURCE: DNA INDIA



The much-awaited multi-billion Rafale combat aircraft deal with France has moved a step further with the defence ministry finalizing a 'draft contract', according to top defence ministry officials.

Rafale was declared the lowest bidder in Janaury 2012 but the deal has not been inked so far on account of escalation in the cost. The Cost Negotiation Committee, which was set up in February 2012 to work out the modalities for the deal has not reached a conclusion after 30 months of negotiations.

The government raised its concerns over this last month, during the visit of French foreign minister Laurent Fabius to New Delhi.

"Yes, we are in the process of finalizing the draft contract for the deal. And we also expect the Cost Negotiation Committee to submit its report soon," said a senior defence ministry official, who was privy to the developments.

But the official refused to give a time frame for inking the deal. "It is very difficult to predict any date for signing the contract. But, it should happen in the next few months," the officer said, requesting anonymity.

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which is coping with a depleted combat strength, claims that even if the deal is signed by the end of the year the first lot of Rafale aircraft would arrive only by 2017, by which time the IAF would have to phase out its MiG-21 squadrons.

The likelihood of an early signing is encouraging. Besides, the ruling NDA government has promised to address all the needs of the armed forces to ensure defence preparedness.

According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates.

Officials claim that when the tender was floated in 2007 the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore).When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore). Now with the inclusion of transfer of technology, the life cycle cost and creation of an assembly line, the deal has climbed to a whopping $20 billion.

The air force is seeking to replace its aging MiG-21s with a modern fighter and the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) fits between India's high-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and the low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, only 30 squadrons are operational as old aircraft have been retired.

Eighteen of the 126 new aircraft are to be purchased directly from Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture 108 under a licence, at a new facility in Bangalore.

Defence minister Arun Jaitley informed parliament last week that "given the complexity of the procurement case, the process of negotiations with Dassault Aviation on various aspects of the commercial proposal and provisions of draft contract is on."

Dassault Aviation emerged as L-1 bidder for procurement of the MMRCA based on its quotation.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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rafale is a capable fighter...its just that we were too late to catch the deal, and now we are paying the price.
 

ersakthivel

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rafale is a capable fighter...its just that we were too late to catch the deal, and now we are paying the price.
Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

:facepalm:[/QUOTE]

The IDRW report mentions in a matter of fact way that "MOD has asked to revise the ralfale cost as costs have ballooned"!!!

And then goes on to say the contract is ready to be signed. Can you think contract be signed without finalizing cost.

This cost is the reason why rafale lost out all its previous contracts. Lets see what happens in india,

Also why this cost is such an important issue is, by noting what Air Marshal matheswaran stated in stratpost conference

"Availability, serviceability and reliability will be huge issues. And these are issues which need to be considered. With respect to MMRCA, it should have come, it should have been operational by 2008. Now that we've delayed it so long and we're boxing ourselves into a situation where again cost-factor will come into the picture, you've got to decide between FGFA and MMRCA if you're going to spend 30 billion dollars each on each of the programs – and the country has to take a call. And the reason – the responsibility for this 'boxing' is not with the air force. Its with the country as a whole – its with the entire system as a whole. And that's what you need to look at. Why have you allowed yourself to get boxed in like this?"
.

This what I have been saying by letting the financial bids lapse in its long drawn dubious evaluation process, IAF has really put the civilian govt in a fix.


SO this 20 billion on Rafale and 20 billion on FGFA to be funded at such close interval is almost impossble is what an IAF guy's view.

Lets see what IAF fanboys here tell about this!!!
 

halloweene

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Ok, now can you give ONE reliable source about those 20 billions? Only blowing hot air... And drawing conclusions from elliptic assertions, comparing apples and oranges etc. Tiring.
 

Zebra

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ersakthivel

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Ok, now can you give ONE reliable source about those 20 billions? Only blowing hot air... And drawing conclusions from elliptic assertions, comparing apples and oranges etc. Tiring.
Mate, I just quoted Matsy , one of the MMRCA supporters in the fartfest called Vayu-stratpost, and many luminaries voicing support for rafale,
I havent seen a single report in an indian newspaper that did not quote the 20 bilion dollar figure.

Or all of them wrong perhaps.
 

halloweene

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There is no serious link about Rafale price in india tbh. Point is one should compare what is comparable, be it off the shelf or lifrtime cycle (including or not ToT, industrialization costs, weapons etc.) . Many numbers are flying here or there, the only thing we know for sure is the flyaway cost of a french Rafale (and their maintenance costs in french air force now). I do understand concerns about price issues, but facts are we do not know, nad furthermore we do not know what is included.
 

ersakthivel

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There is no serious link about Rafale price in india tbh. Point is one should compare what is comparable, be it off the shelf or lifrtime cycle (including or not ToT, industrialization costs, weapons etc.) . Many numbers are flying here or there, the only thing we know for sure is the flyaway cost of a french Rafale (and their maintenance costs in french air force now). I do understand concerns about price issues, but facts are we do not know, nad furthermore we do not know what is included.
Indian deal includes all the things you have mentioned above. And for Rafale f3 standard also.
 

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