Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

There is no serious link about Rafale price in india tbh. Point is one should compare what is comparable, be it off the shelf or lifrtime cycle (including or not ToT, industrialization costs, weapons etc.) . Many numbers are flying here or there, the only thing we know for sure is the flyaway cost of a french Rafale (and their maintenance costs in french air force now). I do understand concerns about price issues, but facts are we do not know, nad furthermore we do not know what is included.

Retired brass have mentioned that Rafale's fly away cost offered in the Indian MRCA is $85 Million.

 

[ersakthivel]

Retired brass have mentioned that Rafale's fly away cost offered in the Indian MRCA is $85 Million.

Was that for the lapsed 2009 financial bid , or the now opened fresh financial bid?

Doesn't matsy , (Air Marshal matheswaran ) count as retired brass?

 

[p2prada]

@ p2prada, I love conspiracy theories coz a lot of it flies around where I live

Yeah, but it holds no water in reality.

Cant help taking a dig coz you apparently believe everything is hunky dory..... I know you are going to refute the below article but what the h*ll I might as well wind you up

Nothing is as hunky dory as it seems. And the French attack on Libya concerned their geostrategic realities not related to Rafale. US and UK didn't have to jump in as well. There were many other countries involved in Libya, but you only want to target France. Conspiracy again? Yes.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Are you telling me France orchestrated all of this singlehandedly to sell Rafales?

They were able to persuade Russia and China to abstain?

There were 18 countries involved in the Libya intervention. Not just France.

Maybe you think they were all there to advertise for Rafale...

More and more conspiracy. More and more retarded.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Meanwhile :

India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014
Published August 22, 2014 | By admin
SOURCE: BLOOMBERG



India aims to sign the contract for the world's biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.

Negotiations on technology transfer and maintenance for 126 Rafale aircraft have been completed, the officials said in New Delhi, asking not to be identified as the discussions aren't public. Discussions on the price must still be completed, they said. The deal will probably be for more than $11 billion.

In 2012, the Indian government chose Dassault to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes after initiating the purchase plan about five years earlier. Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the jet.

Asia's third-largest economy has tripled defense spending over the past decade as it increasingly looks beyond Russia to modernize the military and orders arms from countries including the U.S.

Nungsanglemba Ao, an Indian defense ministry spokesman, declined to comment on the Rafale order. Stephane Fort, a spokesman for Paris-based Dassault Aviation, didn't respond to a message on his mobile phone or an e-mail.

While the country of 1.2 billion people is both a nuclear power and the world's biggest arms importer, defense spending in India is near a half-century low as a percentage of the economy and many weapons are obsolete.

China, the biggest spender on defense after the U.S., has doubled its defense budget since 2006.

Dassault Aviation shares were little changed at 1088.95 euros in Paris at 1:30 p.m. The stock has climbed 17 percent this year, compared with the 2.2 percent gain in the Stoxx Europe 600 Index.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India
SOURCE : INDIA TODAY (German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India | idrw.org)

The world's biggest defence deal is in danger of becoming one of the slowest in history. More than two years after India zeroed in on the French Rafale fighter jet-after a tortured 11-year selection process-to replace its ageing MiG-21s, the German-led European consortium which was the runner-up in the race has sought to restart the dogfight by offering a new, cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter Typhoon. The Narendra Modi Government, INDIA TODAY has learnt, is studying the German proposal even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been negotiating with France's Dassault, the maker of the Rafale, to finalise agreements to produce the aircraft in India. The Rafale deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global defence tender.

Representatives of the German government met leaders of the BJP regime in June, within weeks of the latter coming to power, and the talks culminated in a new commercial proposal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration. The scale of the "discount"-formally offered in early July to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley-was substantial enough to create ripples at the very top of the Government, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi also being apprised about the development, sources said.

In terms of the net present value- the hypothetical cost of buying the entire fleet in one go at current prices-the new offer is at a little more than 10.5 billion euros while the French price is estimated to be a billion euros more. Calculated on the basis of the firm fixed price-or the amount India has to pay over 10 years-the German price comes to 17.5 billion euros.

In 2012, it is believed the Euro-fighter was priced at more than 21 billion euros, a difference significant enough for the French to win the race. A long process of consultations has since been going on between Dassault and HAL to co-produce the fighter jet. Although these technical and commercial negotiations are learnt to be at an advanced stage, the contract has been hanging fire.

The German offer, which has come through Eurofighter manufacturer Airbus Defence and Space, has raised doubts over the future of the Rafale deal even though there is no scope for a revised price offer in the defence ministry's procurement rules. Experts believe that while there is no room for renegotiating the con-tract under the rules, the size of the German discount would force the Government to take a fresh look at the price offered by France. The counter-offer is supposed to be the outcome of hectic diplomatic manoeuvring by major European powers that have a high stake in the contract due to its sheer value and the job creation potential that can boost the economy of consortium member nations.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India
SOURCE : INDIA TODAY (German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India | idrw.org)

The world's biggest defence deal is in danger of becoming one of the slowest in history. More than two years after India zeroed in on the French Rafale fighter jet-after a tortured 11-year selection process-to replace its ageing MiG-21s, the German-led European consortium which was the runner-up in the race has sought to restart the dogfight by offering a new, cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter Typhoon. The Narendra Modi Government, INDIA TODAY has learnt, is studying the German proposal even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been negotiating with France's Dassault, the maker of the Rafale, to finalise agreements to produce the aircraft in India. The Rafale deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global defence tender.

Representatives of the German government met leaders of the BJP regime in June, within weeks of the latter coming to power, and the talks culminated in a new commercial proposal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration. The scale of the "discount"-formally offered in early July to Defence Minister Arun Jaitley-was substantial enough to create ripples at the very top of the Government, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi also being apprised about the development, sources said.

In terms of the net present value- the hypothetical cost of buying the entire fleet in one go at current prices-the new offer is at a little more than 10.5 billion euros while the French price is estimated to be a billion euros more. Calculated on the basis of the firm fixed price-or the amount India has to pay over 10 years-the German price comes to 17.5 billion euros.

In 2012, it is believed the Euro-fighter was priced at more than 21 billion euros, a difference significant enough for the French to win the race. A long process of consultations has since been going on between Dassault and HAL to co-produce the fighter jet. Although these technical and commercial negotiations are learnt to be at an advanced stage, the contract has been hanging fire.

The German offer, which has come through Eurofighter manufacturer Airbus Defence and Space, has raised doubts over the future of the Rafale deal even though there is no scope for a revised price offer in the defence ministry's procurement rules. Experts believe that while there is no room for renegotiating the con-tract under the rules, the size of the German discount would force the Government to take a fresh look at the price offered by France. The counter-offer is supposed to be the outcome of hectic diplomatic manoeuvring by major European powers that have a high stake in the contract due to its sheer value and the job creation potential that can boost the economy of consortium member nations.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

sorry for double post . please delete one .

 

[Jagdish58]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India | idrw.org

Rafale VS Eurofighter round 2

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

just buy one already! We have wasted precious time on this MMRCA. No more should be wasted

 

[ersakthivel]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India | idrw.org

Rafale VS Eurofighter round 2

Now Eurofighter TYPHOON is being offered with 20000 crore discount,

Even Kishore Biyani will faint!!!!!!!

Interesting why the germans waited till UPA was ousted!!!

This confirms that all the swirling gossips of irregularities in the fairest ever "fair ever " technical evaluation by IAF on 692 counts.

So the race is open once again.

i dont think Modi govt can miss out on such bachav offer.

Now we know why Modi govt has asked Dassault that price has gone beyond their limit.

And the panting urgency displayed by IAF worthies in the just concluded "Vayu(pure gas or purrrrrrr gas!!!)" conference.

if a change of govt brings a windfall of 20000 crore to indian tax payer, we can easily know why this discount was not offered during the previous regime's time.

The times are getting very interesting indeed.

Just a foot note not so insignificant, we can buy 126 tejas mk2s with the 20000 crore discount itself(originally MMRCA tender was just for a buy of 126 mirage-2000s, now even mk1 is on par with upgraded mirage-2000, mk2 will be near gripen NG!!!!)

We can easily understand why IAf worthies pounced on tejas as being less than Mig-21 bisons in the vayu fartfest!!!., taking navy guys by a huge surprise!!!!

They just want to conclude the deal before chickens come home to roost!!!!

This kind of urgency was never displayed on MMRCA front by IAF worthies during UPA regime , where things were more "settled".

but a tea vendor may or may not understand such niceties.

 

[p2prada]

German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter to India | idrw.org

Rafale VS Eurofighter round 2

More fake news.

It's so effing obvious that it is fake.

 

[proud_indian]

More fake news.

It's so effing obvious that it is fake.

It indeed seems fake but I am just asking
What's ur opinion if it is true?

 

[Zebra]

Now Eurofighter TYPHOON is being offered with 20000 crore discount,

Even Kishore Biyani will faint!!!!!!!

Interesting why the germans waited till UPA was ousted!!!

This confirms that all the swirling gossips of irregularities in the fairest ever "fair ever " technical evaluation by IAF on 692 counts.

So the race is open once again.

i dont think Modi govt can miss out on such bachav offer.

Now we know why Modi govt has asked Dassault that price has gone beyond their limit.

And the panting urgency displayed by IAF worthies in the just concluded "Vayu(pure gas or purrrrrrr gas!!!)" conference.

if a change of govt brings a windfall of 20000 crore to indian tax payer, we can easily know why this discount was not offered during the previous regime's time.

The times are getting very interesting indeed.

Just a foot note not so insignificant, we can buy 126 tejas mk2s with the 20000 crore discount itself(originally MMRCA tender was just for a buy of 126 mirage-2000s, now even mk1 is on par with upgraded mirage-2000, mk2 will be near gripen NG!!!!)

We can easily understand why IAf worthies pounced on tejas as being less than Mig-21 bisons in the vayu fartfest!!!., taking navy guys by a huge surprise!!!!

They just want to conclude the deal before chickens come home to roost!!!!

This kind of urgency was never displayed on MMRCA front by IAF worthies during UPA regime , where things were more "settled".

but a tea vendor may or may not understand such niceties.

A 'tea vendor'.......

 

[p2prada]

It indeed seems fake but I am just asking
What's ur opinion if it is true?

Status quo. Rafale is still the better fighter for us.

And we don't negotiate with the L2.

 

[Zebra]

Status quo. Rafale is still the better fighter for us.

And we don't negotiate with the L2.

And what if some one does! Just like this case.

Still they are L2.

Anyway, govt always has their own way to interpret every thing the way they like. I guess.

 

[p2prada]

And what if some one does! Just like this case.

Still they are L2.

Anyway, govt always has their own way to interpret every thing the way they like. I guess.

No. The govt can't interpret anything however they want. If they want to make changes, they will have to create a new DPP. And tender clauses are binding. A tender carries rules like negotiations will happen only with L1 and nobody else.

L1 is the only thing that matters. If discussions with L1 fail, then the tendering process starts again to get the next L1. There is no second place.

Any competitor that is trying to make a comeback has to do that through a govt to govt deal like FMS. But DPP procedures doesn't allow govt to govt deals in cases where there are competitors present. Even if one competitor is available there has to be a tender. That's why direct negotiations is impossible.

Coming to the article, the reason why it is fake is because it ignores the above rules and also assumes the $20 Billion price is real when cost negotiations are still ongoing, the final price is unknown to both Dassault and MoD today. So, even EADS doesn't know the actual cost of the contract. The discount story is just horseshit, we can't buy a Typhoon cheaper than a consortium member.

The only way to accept EF's bid is by canceling the ongoing tender. Once the tender is canceled making Rafale's bid null and void, EADS can always say they made a mistake and withdraw their offer. Once a tender is canceled, you have to initiate a new tender. And EADS can jack up prices in the new tender again, and other competitors can also jump in. Acceptable?

Of course, negotiations themselves are protracted and bids don't cover all the costs. So, even if EADS continues with their new bid, actual costs will continue increasing with every year of delay along with IAF adding new requirements to their deal, apart from costs of ToT and industrial production. Any cost increase that happened with Rafale is bound to happen with Typhoon as well.

 

[ersakthivel]

No. The govt can't interpret anything however they want. If they want to make changes, they will have to create a new DPP. And tender clauses are binding. A tender carries rules like negotiations will happen only with L1 and nobody else.

L1 is the only thing that matters. If discussions with L1 fail, then the tendering process starts again to get the next L1. There is no second place.

There is no way this argument can be correct. ndian govt went beyond MMRCA tender rules to take back Dassualt bid again, after it was rejected by GOI for "incomplete documentation", At that time other MMRCA contesters did not complain. In the same way dassualt can not complain now.

Any competitor that is trying to make a comeback has to do that through a govt to govt deal like FMS. But DPP procedures doesn't allow govt to govt deals in cases where there are competitors present. Even if one competitor is available there has to be a tender. That's why direct negotiations is impossible.

Coming to the article, the reason why it is fake is because it ignores the above rules and also assumes the $20 Billion price is real when cost negotiations are still ongoing, the final price is unknown to both Dassault and MoD today. So, even EADS doesn't know the actual cost of the contract. The discount story is just horseshit, we can't buy a Typhoon cheaper than a consortium member.

You will claim forever that MOD does not know rafale's price, even when price negotiations are going on!!!!

The only way to accept EF's bid is by canceling the ongoing tender. Once the tender is canceled making Rafale's bid null and void, EADS can always say they made a mistake and withdraw their offer. Once a tender is canceled, you have to initiate a new tender. And EADS can jack up prices in the new tender again, and other competitors can also jump in. Acceptable?

Scrapping the tender is the best way to get out of muddle. No govt can risk itself to ferocious opposition in parliament when it becomes public knowledge that GOI chose rafale over typhoon after foregoing 20000 crore discount

Of course, negotiations themselves are protracted and bids don't cover all the costs. So, even if EADS continues with their new bid, actual costs will continue increasing with every year of delay along with IAF adding new requirements to their deal, apart from costs of ToT and industrial production. Any cost increase that happened with Rafale is bound to happen with Typhoon as well.

Really?!?!?!?

Then please explain how rafale got back into MMRCA contract, aftrer its bid was rejected by Indian government for giving "incomplete bid documents", a grave error even in minor contract negotiation!!!!

At that time the UPA GOVT showed leniency on rafale just to widen the competition.

That was good for dassualt, and rafel breaking a non negotiable clause in contract bid by submitting incomplete bid , but still allowed back but in by the indian govt .

Now if indian govt thinks about saving close to 4 billion dollars it is breaking MMRCA rule???

Remember according to IAF both the typhoon and rafale were good enough.

With even tejas mk1 fulfilling the original MMRCA need of 126 Mirage-2000 fighters and tejas mk2 expected around 2020, no one needs this MMRCA circus any more.
ordering a few more squadrons of Super sukhois along with 200 plus tejas mk2 order will make for everything IAF loses in cancellation of MMRCA tender at half the cost.

rafale is no silver bullet for IAF,

What is wrong with the Rafale?

I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading.

Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29

. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean?


Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scrambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS.

With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticeably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase.

While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production.

It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously.

Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats.

The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters.

The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system.

Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.


this is what gambit posted(some one who taught you on radars and stealth,)

The major problem with the SPECTRA-like method of active cancellation is that the system must sample a portion of the seeking radar's pulse train...

Basically...The transmitter turn itself on...Wait for a specified period of time...Then turn itself off. The rise and fall in power level constitute a pulse. Several pulses in a sequence make up a pulse train. How long is that sequence depends on the radar's intention and design. The appropriate analogy is a real locomotive with the gaps between sections.

A sample of several pulses must be studied. If the system take too short a sample in order to study the pulse train's signal characteristics to create a credible cancellation, the rest of the pulse train or next pulse train will reveal the aircraft. If the system take too long a sample, then the aircraft will be revealed anyway by the current pulse train. The seeking and therefore hostile radar can change the characteristics of each pulse train from one to the next.

The hostile radar can change the PRF from one train to the next, forcing the SPECTRA-like system to constantly recalibrate itself. The hostile radar is employing the tactic called 'PRF jittering'. The 'jittering' technique is common when the radar is operating in an electronically dense environment BUT the 'jittering' sequence is predictable. The radar using this technique will remember the exact sequence of the many PRFs and will perform the appropriate correlation to eliminate unwanted signals that may come from other radars in the vicinity. Civilian airports are places of where predictable 'PRF jittering' technique is used.

But for military purposes like ECM and ECCM, predictability is not always desirable and a 'non-cooperative target' is always looking for predictability. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is known, this SPECTRA-like system will work as advertised. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is not known, the system will create many anomalous echoes for the seeking radar, one moment the system successfully canceled the pulse train but with the new pulse train with a different pulse train characteristics the system must resample, which at the very least will make the seeking radar operator suspicious. The goal is to make the operator unaware, not suspicious.


A SPECTRA-like system is a good idea in application but not against first-tier militaries. Some second-tier militaries can manage to purchase first-tier radars and they will find the aircraft. The balance between sampling and response is what make the SPECTRA system difficult to employ precisely because of the unpredictability of potential adversaries.


This is why the SPECTRA is best against second and third tier militaries. First tier militaries are moving towards the much more versatile AESA radar system.

There are nine logical radars in ASEA, Each capable of performing independent action. An AESA radar looking for a SPECTRA equipped Rafale will find it through the use of multiple radars, from the same main array. The capability of the AESA is dependent upon the technological sophistication of the country wielding it, of course. There will no digital library possible for the SPECTRA to remember.

 

[Zebra]

No. The govt can't interpret anything however they want. If they want to make changes, they will have to create a new DPP. And tender clauses are binding. A tender carries rules like negotiations will happen only with L1 and nobody else.

L1 is the only thing that matters. If discussions with L1 fail, then the tendering process starts again to get the next L1. There is no second place.

Any competitor that is trying to make a comeback has to do that through a govt to govt deal like FMS. But DPP procedures doesn't allow govt to govt deals in cases where there are competitors present. Even if one competitor is available there has to be a tender. That's why direct negotiations is impossible.

Coming to the article, the reason why it is fake is because it ignores the above rules and also assumes the $20 Billion price is real when cost negotiations are still ongoing, the final price is unknown to both Dassault and MoD today. So, even EADS doesn't know the actual cost of the contract. The discount story is just horseshit, we can't buy a Typhoon cheaper than a consortium member.

The only way to accept EF's bid is by canceling the ongoing tender. Once the tender is canceled making Rafale's bid null and void, EADS can always say they made a mistake and withdraw their offer. Once a tender is canceled, you have to initiate a new tender. And EADS can jack up prices in the new tender again, and other competitors can also jump in. Acceptable?

Of course, negotiations themselves are protracted and bids don't cover all the costs. So, even if EADS continues with their new bid, actual costs will continue increasing with every year of delay along with IAF adding new requirements to their deal, apart from costs of ToT and industrial production. Any cost increase that happened with Rafale is bound to happen with Typhoon as well.

Then what is fun of announcing someone as L2?

As of today also govt can interpret the way they like, if they want.
But some day we can talk about it, lets stick on MRCA for the time being.

 

[Zebra]

Could India's Review of MMRCA Selection Process Bring Back Eurofighter?

Monday, March 31, 2014

India may review the process of arriving at the lowest bidder in the MMRCA fighter contest which could open the door for Eurofighter to re-enter the competition.

Media reports today said that Indian defence minister AK Antony had recently ordered the process to arrive at the lowest bidder in the multi-vendor tender be reviewed after completion of the whole procedure as questions had been raised over it and the minister had taken cognizance of 'concerns'. However, independent confirmation of this 'recent order' could not be made.

There is a lack of clarity in the reports about why the selection process be reviewed after 'completion'. Does completion mean successful conclusion of negotiations with Rafale? In which case where is the need for a review of the selection process.

However, indications received from various sources say that the negotiations with the lowest bidder Dassault, now into their third year, have been dragging precisely over the issue of cost- life-cycle, outright price and offsets.

In that case the question which comes to mind is on what basis was Dassault declared as the lowest bidder.

If the Indian government goes ahead with the review it could turn the entire procurement scenario upside down depending on the results of the examination. If the total cost as quoted by Rafale turns out higher than that of the Eurofighter, it may be forced to invite the European consortium for negotiations.

France is reported to be pressing for a government guarantee to the negotiations which the Indian side has refused on grounds that the process to select a new government has begun and any such decision will have to be taken by the next government.

Antony or the next defence minister will have a lot of questions to answer on the MMRCA selection when the Indian Parliament resumes after the general elections in May.

Defenseworld.net had earlier reported quoting unnamed sources that that the MoD "should have conducted parallel negotiations with the L1 and L2 (Eurofighter) to speed up the final selection.

Parallel negotiations on precisely those aspects which are hindering the deal now, would have ensured that the IAF got a better deal in the final analysis".

 

[ersakthivel]

Then what is fun of announcing someone as L2?

As of today also govt can interpret the way they like, if they want.
But some day we can talk about it, lets stick on MRCA for the time being.

The Su-30SM(which is same as SU-30 MKI) contract for Russia is 'officially' about $35M each as opposed to the $70-100M for a near-identical HAL-built Su-30MKI. No amount of Russian efficiency can justify that disparity in costs. The cost to an export customer could well be twice as high.

So we can assume what an overpriced fighter rafale will be.

People declaring that rafale will be 70 percent indigenous should understand that decades of far deeper customization on Su-30 MKI has not helped us to get it at the same price as russians!!!!, despite being the original developer of the MKI version.