Know Your 'Rafale'

Pulkit

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Why Rafale is a Big Mistake | idrw.org
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@ersakthivel @Kunal Biswas sir , @Pulkit
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its something that we were saying. But its more deep and more reasonable.

Read The article It only states that the world does not want that why only India wants to have Rafale?
The question is correct ....
The explaination is a bit out of context ...
Specially the 30Billion cost... though by the speed Procurements are taking place its not far away but at that there will be no deal...

Comparison with F35 is also there we have been shouting that fro a while....

There is nothing more than what we all were saying discussing quoting here apart from the global prospect...

Still a goood piece.... :thumb:
 
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p2prada

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Nice piece of crap. Full of unsourced pseudo data.
Only the grammar and sentence construction is good. All of the information in it is wrong. Even the stuff about the Russians is wrong. If they hadn't transferred source codes it would have been impossible to integrate Akash, Brahmos, Sudarshan etc on the MKI, never mind building the entire aircraft in the country.
 

Pulkit

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Its just a general propective ....
Most of the data specified is projected its validity can only come once the deal is thru or revealed...

Its an estimated guess... there is nothing crappy about it....
Nice piece of crap. Full of unsourced pseudo data.
 

p2prada

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@halloweene

Am I right in saying the R&D budget for Rafale was $15 Billion and procurement budget was first 130 Rafales was less than $15 billion?

The program cost for 286 Rafales is around $56 Billion (42 Billion Euros), so if we remove the R&D budget we get $41 Billion. That's $143 Million per jet with training, spares and maintenance and also weapons, is that right? Is base construction, support infrastructure etc part of this budget?

The same cost would put IAF Rafales at $17 Billion with all the extras. All inclusive of tax. That would make it the overall procurement cost.

And the article has wrongly assumed that the cost of Brazilian Rafales, $12 Billion for 36, which was later reduced to $10 Billion, is actually just a few years when it is supposed to be for 30 years.
 
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@halloweene

Am I right in saying the R&D budget for Rafale was $15 Billion and procurement budget was first 130 Rafales was less than $15 billion?

The program cost for 286 Rafales is around $56 Billion (42 Billion Euros), so if we remove the R&D budget we get $41 Billion. That's $143 Million per jet with training, spares and maintenance and also weapons, is that right? Is base construction, support infrastructure etc part of this budget?

The same cost would put IAF Rafales at $17 Billion with all the extras. All inclusive of tax. That would make it the overall procurement cost.

And the article has wrongly assumed that the cost of Brazilian Rafales, $12 Billion for 36, which was later reduced to $10 Billion, is actually just a few years when it is supposed to be for 30 years.
french purchased it way back in 2001. The rafale right now have many modification.
 
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Jagdish58

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Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Why would India buy the Rafale combat aircraft rejected by every other interested country—Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, and even the cash-rich but not particularly discriminating Saudi Arabia and Morocco?

The French foreign minister Laurent Fabius's one-point agenda when he visited New Delhi was to seal the deal for Rafale, a warplane apparently fitting IAF's idea of a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in the service's unique typology, which includes "light" and "heavy" fighter planes as well, used by no other air force in the world. Alas, the first whiff of corruption led the previous defence minister, A K Antony, to seize up and shut shop, stranding the deal at the price negotiation committee stage. It is this stoppage Fabius sought to unclog.

France's desperation is understandable. Absent the India deal, the Rafale production line will close down, the future of its aerospace sector will dim, and the entire edifice of French industrial R&D sector based on small and medium-sized firms—a version of the enormously successful German "Mittelstand" model—engaged in producing cutting-edge technologies could unravel, and grease France's slide to second-rate technology power-status.

More immediately, it will lead to a marked increase in the unit cost of the aircraft—reportedly of as much as $5-$10 million dollars to the French Air Force, compelling it to limit the number it inducts. With no international customers and France itself unable to afford the pricey Rafale, the French military aviation industry will be at a crossroads. So, for Paris a lot is at stake and in India the French have found an easy mark, a country willing to pay excessively for an aircraft the IAF can well do without.

Consider the monies at stake. Let's take the example of Brazil, our BRICS partner. For 36 Rafales the acquisition cost, according to Brazilian media, was $8.2 billion plus an additional $4 billion for short-period maintenance contracts, amounting to nearly $340 million per aircraft in this package and roughly $209 million as the price tag for a single Rafale without maintenance support. Brazil insisted on transfer of technology (ToT) and was told it had to pay a whole lot extra for it, as also for the weapons for its Rafales. But the Brazilian air force had doubts about the quality of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling the aircraft to switch quickly from air-to-air to air-to-ground mode in flight, and about the helmet-mounted heads-up-display. Too high a price and too many problems convinced the government of president Dilma Rousseff that the Rafale was not worth the trouble or the money and junked the deal, opting for the Swedish Gripen NG instead.

During the Congress party's rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum. But India, unbeknownst to most of us, is apparently a terribly rich country, with money to burn! Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, an apparently poorer state or at least one more careful with its money, is blanching at the $190 million price tag for each of the 60 Lockheed F-35Bs (vertical take-off, technologically more complex, variant of the air force model)—a full generation ahead of the Rafale—ordered for the first of the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth-class 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers.

The prohibitive cost of the French aircraft supposedly made finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley apprehensive. He did the right thing, as is rumoured, of revising the order downwards from 126 aircraft to 80 or so Rafales. The IAF headquarters pre-emptively acquiesced in the decision to save the deal. However, if this change was affected in the hope of proportionately reducing the cost, it will be belied. Because in contracts involving high-value combat aircraft, the size of the order does not much affect the unit price, the cost of spares and service support, and of ToT! This is evident from the rough estimates of the per aircraft cost to Brazil of $209 million for 36 Rafales compared with the $238 million for 126 of the same aircraft to India!

Because New Delhi has been inclined to make India a military "great power" on the basis of imported armaments—a policy that's a boon to supplier states as it generates employment and new technologies in these countries, and sustains their defence industries, a confident French official told me with respect to another deal that "India will pay the price". Considering the various negatives of the proposed deal and the long-term national interest Jaitley would do well to nix the Rafale transaction altogether.

The bureaucratic interest of the IAF prompts it to exaggerate wrong threats and talk of declining fighter assets. But it will not tell the defence minister about the logistics hell routinely faced by frontline squadrons in operations owing to the mindboggling diversity of combat aircraft in its inventory, a problem only the Rafale acquisition will exacerbate and, hence, about the urgent need to rationalise the force structure, ideally to Su-30s, the indigenous Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence, Tejas Mk-II as MMRCA, and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth-generation fighter. Nor will the department of defence production officials disclose to Jaitley that the ToT provisions in arms contracts are a fraudulent farce because, while the foreign suppliers pocket billions of dollars, no core technologies, such as source codes (millions of lines of software) and flight control laws, are ever transferred. And that the local defence industry monopolised by defence public sector units (DPSUs) is incapable of absorbing and innovating even such technology as is, in fact, relayed to it because it only assembles aircraft from imported kits.

Terminating the Rafale deal will be disruptive but sending the message to the military, the DPSUs, the defence ministry bureaucracy, and foreign companies salivating for rich, one-sided, contracts that the Narendra Modi government is determined to make a new start and conduct defence business differently, is more important.

Why Rafale is a Big Mistake - The New Indian Express
 

p2prada

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french purchased it way back in 2001. The rafale right now have many modification.
At that time Rafale was less than $60 Million per plane. And French inflation is 1%.

The 42 Billion budget was released only last year by the French parliament, so it is the latest info. The ALA is inducting the Rafale at $95 Million today with the latest modifications. Halloweene had released an article about it a few months ago.
 

p2prada

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cause your govt will get money when the deal is signed. Right. Its no good for india.
More than 90% of the MRCA money will be spent in India. Where France will earn is in the sales of weapons since all of it will be made in Europe. But that may be separate from MRCA deal.

Dassault plans to make bigger investments in the future. So, we will be earning more money overall than what will be spent for Rafale. Dassault plans on manufacturing different types of aircraft in India with Reliance and other industries. By 2060 Dassault's market share in India could be significantly over $100 Billion where Rafale would only be a speck in the distance.
 

Meriv90

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At that time Rafale was less than $60 Million per plane. And French inflation is 1%.

The 42 Billion budget was released only last year by the French parliament, so it is the latest info. The ALA is inducting the Rafale at $95 Million today with the latest modifications. Halloweene had released an article about it a few months ago.
Nice numbers, just wondering how is possible that you buy the airplane cheaper than the producers....

Rafale : la Défense envisage d'arrêter les commandes à 225 exemplaires

Des milliards d'euros d'économies à très long terme

Le coût total du programme, actualisé aux prix de 2011, est de 43,56 milliards d'euros pour l'Etat, y compris le coût de développement déjà payé (soit 5,3 milliards d'euros, selon un rapport du ministère de la Défense publié en mai 1996) et l'industrialisation (1,1 milliard). Soit 152 millions TTC prix unitaire (ou 127 millions HT), selon un rapport du Sénat. Le ministère de la Défense estimait en 2010, en réponse à un rapport de la Cour de comptes sur la conduite des programmes d'armement, le prix unitaire de production du Rafale à 101,1 millions d'euros
With development cost it is 152€ (204$) without is 101€(135$)
 
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At that time Rafale was less than $60 Million per plane. And French inflation is 1%.

The 42 Billion budget was released only last year by the French parliament, so it is the latest info. The ALA is inducting the Rafale at $95 Million today with the latest modifications. Halloweene had released an article about it a few months ago.
the cost of single rafale that india will get is over 200 million without maintenance, Right now. If you say its less then provide a link or shut up your mouth as there has been month flat talks from you
 
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another lie @p2prada
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right now deal in negotiation says its 70:30 and among 70% many will be brought from france + money of TOT + first 17 rafale will be made in france
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again it will cost more in maintenance cause maintenance of single mirage is 45 million and tejas costs 26 million.
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plus, rafale have inferior aesa compared to aesa of tejas.
 
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p2prada

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the cost of single rafale that india will get is over 200 million without maintenance, Right now. If you say its less then provide a link or shut up your mouth as there has been month flat talks from you
Provide a link saying Rafale costs $200 Million or you shut your pie hole. How about that?
 

Illusive

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another lie @p2prada
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right now deal in negotiation says its 70:30 and among 70% many will be brought from france + money of TOT + first 17 rafale will be made in france
.
again it will cost more in maintenance cause maintenance of single mirage is 45 million and tejas costs 26 million.
.
plus, rafale have inferior aesa compared to aesa of tejas.
AESA of tejas?
 
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p2prada

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Nice numbers, just wondering how is possible that you buy the airplane cheaper than the producers....

Rafale : la Défense envisage d'arrêter les commandes à 225 exemplaires
Because we will produce more numbers in lesser time.

With development cost it is 152€ (204$) without is 101€(135$)
That's with French taxes. Your link says it is 19.6%.

This is from the French parliament.
Projet de loi de finances pour 2014 : Défense : équipement des forces et excellence technologique des industries de défense
Avant prise en compte du projet de LPM, le coût total du programme pour l'Etat était de 45,9 Mds €2013. Le coût unitaire (hors coût de développement) de 74 M€2013 pour le Rafale B (pour 110 avions) de 68,8 M€2013 pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions) et de 79 M€2011 pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions).
Rafale C is 68.8 Million, Rafale B is 74 Million and Rafale M is 79 Million. In Euros.
In today's prices that's $92.54, 99.53 and 106.24 Million.

Dassault manufactures 11 a year, and that's counting the Rafale-M which we are not going to buy. They built 130 over 14 years while we plan to build 108 in 5 years. So the savings in terms of procuring long leads and supplier labor costs are higher in India.

You can say the first 18 aircraft may cost very similar to what ALA is paying while the remaining 108 may have different costs. The final cost of all 189 jets could be lower too. The only problem is inflation is India is 7%, so it becomes more important to build the jets quickly to keep the costs low.

Costs of royalty, ToT etc are obviously separate. The 50% offsets package should compensate for the price of these extras, that's what offsets are for, while also building more capability elsewhere. Earlier offsets was separate from the contract, today offsets are part of the package. So, Dassault can use some of the ToT as offsets, meaning they may end up paying us for the ToT. :)
 

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