Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

Who says it has AESA? Last time I heard it was an Elta PESA.


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you haven't heard Tamil mani DG aeronautics in tarmak007 livechat

 

[ersakthivel]

Affordable airpower is good for countries like SWISS , Brazil who dont have Nuclear armed neighbours /enemies

but unaffordable air power is poor strategy true but not for countries like INDIA who have a very responsible nuclear armed neighbours where they are willing to eat grass to buy latest weapons to destroy us

BTW same hypocrisy can also be said for PAK-FA if we say we should rather invest in AMCA as PAK-FA developmental costs & procurement cost would also kill us in future

CHEERS

The author's view reflect majority opinion among experts,Rafale is no 5th gen magic bullet to all the woes of IAF ,
It will be questionable how it will perform against much cheaper 5th gen J-31 which will surely debut in PAF fleet in a short while, I don't think chinese will take forever in sorting out the Ws engine for the J-31.

You should also know that swiss and brazil face no realistic 5th gen fighter threat in the immediate future as india is doing with the J-20 and J-31. At this juncture can we afford to commit a huge 20 billion dollar deal for just 126 4.5 th gen rafales?

chinese will sell the plane very cheap as well. thats why we should concentrate on stealth tejas mk-3 and AMCA as soon as possible.

tejas mk-2 is Not just affordable, but effective , will have the same radome dia asea radar and can fill the skies for more robust air defence.

In this age when even 5th gen F-35 has a target price of close to 100 million dollars we can not pay 120 plus million dollars for 4.5th gen rafale , that too when we have fully indigenous Su-30 and (grippen NG class) tejas mk-2 combo in hand.

Fighter numbers are also another far more important target for IAF.


It will be far more wise to channel the more than 10 billion dollars savings that will accrue if we replace the rafale numbers with Su-30 MKI-tejas mk-2 combo in FGFA AMCA combo.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas @ quarter the price of the rafale is also quarter the capability of the rafale.
I have observed you in various threads as a major promoter of the tejas. While that is all good you must realise that times have changed and strategies along with it. While tejas wil always have a place in the IAF scheme of things I feel you should stop comparing the tejas to the rafale. It may read nicely on paper but it flies and fights different.
Lets not be like pak who proclaim the jf-17 as the best thing thats happened to military aviation.
No offence.

You are just oversold on the PR stuff on RAFALE.

tejas mk-2 at a fourth of the cost of rafale has no inferiority in air to air mission as both are going to have the same radome dia and and similar air to air missiles.

Also for the same price of one rafale we can have three sets of EW suits and asea radars of the same rafale capability on air a huge boost in air space saturation surveillance capability.

While rafale scores on range, a judicious mix of Su-30 MKI along with tejas mk-2 will more or less match the capability of 126 rafale fleet.

SInce most of the deep strike roles will be delegated to 5th gen stealth UAVs like Aura in the future, the range limitation of tejas mk-2 is not that big a handicap either.

 

[ersakthivel]

The author has assumed many things on his own. Especially LCA costs. Even ADA mentioned LCA Mk2 will cost $40 Million fly away and this will be the minimum cost.

cost of tejas mk-2 depends on order numbers, if IAF sit tights with just 126 numbers there is no way to get tejas mk-2 cost down.

 

[ersakthivel]

Article is full of confusing data. Either the author is stupid or he has an agenda.



source? (i mean a serious one). Is it fly away cost, initial acquiisition cost, total acquisition cost ? ToT? Industrialization costs?etc.


No only Saito sayed that... Prices are documented by swedish and french armed forces : roughly 7000 $ for Gripen C/D in swedish forces, 12000 $ for Rafale during Mali operations. I can give you more reliable sources than Juniti Saito (you know the very same guy also explains that mono engines are more radar evading than twin engines etc), just senile.

Really, and indian evaluation commitees were stupid enough to let this pass? Again source?

. These numbers were never made public. Better have a look to the swiss saga, prices cited their are serious.

And this commentator seems unaware of the difference between a technology demonstrator and a seviceable plane. There isn't a single common part between Rafale A and operational Rafales (even those at F1 transfer). Entry to service was also delayed by budget constraints while the plane was ready.

again, what is he talking about : fly away cost or...

Which include the R&D and industrializatipno cost. Why not read further and quote the fly away costs?

etc.

If the author is not informed about rafale deal cost, you can give us the exact cost of the deal by comparing it to recent prices quoted by dassault in other contests.

Indian evaluation teams are made to be dumb by the political masters, if you want to know the truth just take a look at Indian T-90 deal negotiating team, which clinched the contract excluding so many items from the deal and made to look it very cheap.

 

[halloweene]

Why would i do the job (again) for you? As i said, look at the fly away cost (i wrote it with references for ottawa citizen defence watch blog), and i'm really tired of again and again repeating data bout swiss price proposals, sry its late here, do your homework.

 

[aryavrat]

You are just oversold on the PR stuff on RAFALE.

tejas mk-2 at a fourth of the cost of rafale has no inferiority in air to air mission as both are going to have the same radome dia and and similar air to air missiles.

Also for the same price of one rafale we can have three sets of EW suits and asea radars of the same rafale capability on air a huge boost in air space saturation surveillance capability.

While rafale scores on range, a judicious mix of Su-30 MKI along with tejas mk-2 will more or less match the capability of 126 rafale fleet.

SInce most of the deep strike roles will be delegated to 5th gen stealth UAVs like Aura in the future, the range limitation of tejas mk-2 is not that big a handicap either.

What about the weapon package that comes with Rafale as well as highly efficient EW suite along with ground attack capability?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Who says it has AESA? Last time I heard it was an Elta PESA.


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check wikipedia or any interview of drdo official on lca II, they are developing aesa for mkII along with mca

 

[laughingbuddha]

Its like comparing maruti alto 800 with suzuki vitara. Yes they both have four wheels. Yes they both run on petrol. Yes one variant of the alto 800 also comes with airbags (lca mk-2 aesa) and the vitara has airbags as standard.
But the alto 800 is an entry level pepple's car while the vitsra is an SUV.
We can go on and on.
Yes we can keep both cars.

 

[dealwithit]

Its like comparing maruti alto 800 with suzuki vitara. Yes they both have four wheels. Yes they both run on petrol. Yes one variant of the alto 800 also comes with airbags (lca mk-2 aesa) and the vitara has airbags as standard.
But the alto 800 is an entry level pepple's car while the vitsra is an SUV.
We can go on and on.
Yes we can keep both cars.

Yes Good comparison.........

When having sufficient money for 800.. can't plan 20B$ product with ever going maintenance costs...
India can't afford 86000 crores for 126 rafale's.... or it will reach magic number 1 lakh crore...

Cost matters............

 

[Armand2REP]

check wikipedia or any interview of drdo official on lca II, they are developing aesa for mkII along with mca

DRDO developed AESA... some joke. It is getting Elta PESA.


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[Patriot]

DRDO developed AESA... some joke. It is getting Elta PESA.


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Yeah for you a joke! Do not make joke of your self by making absurd comments with your prejudiced (distraught) thought process.

DRDO AESA is under development for Tejas MK-2.

What you are saying ELTA PESA is for Tejas:MK-1.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

DRDO developed AESA... some joke. It is getting Elta PESA.


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check it herehttp://thebharatmilitaryreview.blogspot.in/2011/12/lrde-to-develop-aesa-radar-for-indian.html?m=1

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

DRDO developed AESA... some joke. It is getting Elta PESA.


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check it here it is aesa radar still in development

http://thebharatmilitaryreview.blogspot.in/2011/12/lrde-to-develop-aesa-radar-for-indian.html?m=1

 

[ersakthivel]

Its like comparing maruti alto 800 with suzuki vitara. Yes they both have four wheels. Yes they both run on petrol. Yes one variant of the alto 800 also comes with airbags (lca mk-2 aesa) and the vitara has airbags as standard.
But the alto 800 is an entry level pepple's car while the vitsra is an SUV.
We can go on and on.
Yes we can keep both cars.

This MMRCA charade ignoring the fully developed platform like Tejas is another gravy train for the high and mighty nothing else.

Please don't make irrelevant comparison.

Spectra is just the name of EW package on rafale. ADA with Israeli assistance can develop a wholesome Ew suit along with IRST for tejas mk-2 as well. Nothing prohibits it.

We can't just spend 20 billion dollars for a better EW suit, when a combo of SU-30 MKI and tejas mk-2 can almost do most of the missions RAFALE can do.

If at all RAFALE is a 5th gen stealth we can pay 20 billion plus, but for a 4.5th gen fighter with external weapon carriage it is too much.

We have to spend money simultaneously on AMCA, FGFA as well.

 

[halloweene]

Your 20 billions would more or less match the unit price swiss would have paid for 18 Rafales, including training, facilities, simulators, spare parts, full access to french airbases for training etc....
Doubt ful the price would be the same for 126.
Rafale has longer range, BETTER EW suite (why do you think IAF chose DAssault to modernize M-2K?), vastly bigger loading etc.
You are comparing apples and oranges. (as usual)

 

[arnabmit]

I dont know, they build crankshafts fot BMW

Yup, that's Bharat Forge.

:: Bharat Forge Limited ::

 

[laughingbuddha]

I don't think a combo is what the IAF has in mind. And I don't think the IAF plans to structure the air force around the Tejas. Like I mentioned earlier, it will have its place in the IAF and I am sure it has been well thought out. Let us wait and see. Duobtful if our discourse will have any bearing on their decisions.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Air&Cosmos 2402

Satcom Ready ?
During the formation flight of the nEUROn with Rafale B301 and a Falcon 7X; pics of Rafale B301 show a new antenna . Acording to Air&Cosmos, Dassault would test since late 2013 a new satellite communication system that could be offered to export.

CHEERS

 

[halloweene]

Yes it is a Sat antenna