Know Your 'Rafale'

halloweene

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Rofl mao!!:pound:

you took that seriously , i was just joking .

Do u think i seriously got time to write articles about defence .


yes i took that seriously
It has been a decade since i have posted my layman's analysis thread.

give my greetings to Bruno from my side

CHEERS
well yes i took that seriously, and the dont even think about it was a humouristic legend of the photo, nothing pointed at you! Sry for misundertanding.
 

Agnostic_Indian

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super hornet price is 80 million and f 35 is 130 million so I would say up to a 100 million is ok for Rafale.
 

Abhijeet Dey

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The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore)," said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.
~
what the hell? Order 3 more (60)suk3 squadron and push the lca 2.
If we going to spend 30bn on rafale. It is criminal. Its more like 2/3rd of entire defence budget.
Senior officials of Indian Air Force should comment on this issue sine it involves Indian taxpayers money.
 

prohumanity

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Why can't India just cancel the MMRCA deal with France if they keep on escalating the price? Why not re consider MIG-35 ...something to really
think about. Russia remains the most trusted and solid partner. India can easily trust Russia as both agree on major global issues.
 

kseeker

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Why can't India just cancel the MMRCA deal with France if they keep on escalating the price? Why not re consider MIG-35 ...something to really think about.
Yes, Enough is enough. Greed has no limits and this is yet another example.

It appears to me that, GOI will show Frenchies :finger: soon and I wish that to happen :amen:. Bloody effing Frenchies.

Russia remains the most trusted and solid partner. India can easily trust Russia as both agree on major global issues.
It's a buyer - seller relationship, nothing else. Ruskies need money and we need weapons. Note that, they are not giving any wholesale offers for their trusted buyers!


India's biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.
Grant DRDO 10% of $18 billion and ask them to develop indigenous MMRCA, with remaining 90% of the $'s India can produce double or triple the number of ACs.

We have that potential however, the questions are, will our babus and ministers agree on doing that? will DRDO expedite the development part if they get that grant? will IAF wait for another 5 years (???) and manage with current ACs?

@ersakthivel @TrueSpirit1 @p2prada @Kunal Biswas @Twinblade @pmaitra --- thoughts ?
 
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Kunal Biswas

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From present leadership, I highly doubt ..

These people are best known for there corrupt scams involving massive imports ..

=============

If good leadership take place we may see our system working efficiently with all the bad lobby and corrupt elements out ..

Pvt sector can do some good serial production ..
 

ersakthivel

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Dassault says 2 RAFALE are equal to six Mirage-2000 if the following link is correct,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale-45.html#post847037

Tejas mk-2 will be far superior to Mirage-2000 with 5 ton weapon load , longer range than both Mirage-2000 and tejas mk-1 and with an ASEA radar and possible METEOR missile.

Tejas mk-2 has the same radome dia and radar antenna as that of RAFALE.

SO two RAFALEs roughly equal 4 tejas mk-2 is my opinion. tejas mk-2 is not going to cost more than 30 or 35 million dollar per piece.

SO if we put the same money we are going to put in RAFALE deal for 126 fighters we can get 1.5 times the capacity of RAAFLE fleet for IAF.

And the overhaul and upgrade cost of tejas mk-2 will be a fraction of even Mirage-2000's 45 million dollar per piece tag.

So if the same money that we spend in dollar for RAFALE deal is spent in rupees for Tejas , we may get a fleet twice capable. And there will be no forex outgo!!!!!
 
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SajeevJino

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..

I will Choose the Tejas if it's Prove it's Destruction.. destroying Pakistani Outposts and Terrorists Camps near the Border .

Then who need Rafale and Others even foreigners will buy the Tejas
 

ersakthivel

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..

I will Choose the Tejas if it's Prove it's Destruction.. destroying Pakistani Outposts and Terrorists Camps near the Border .

Then who need Rafale and Others even foreigners will buy the Tejas
it is the long range stand off PGMs that do the job, tejas mk-1 and mk-2 has the multi mode radar to do it right now,
What is needed is the political will, not tejas's ability to do so.
 

TrueSpirit1

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Yes, Enough is enough. Greed has no limits and this is yet another example.

It appears to me that, GOI will show Frenchies :finger: soon and I wish that to happen :amen:. Bloody effing Frenchies.


It's a buyer - seller relationship, nothing else. Ruskies need money and we need weapons. Note that, they are not giving any wholesale offers for their trusted buyers!




Grant DRDO 10% of $18 billion and ask them to develop indigenous MMRCA, with remaining 90% of the $'s India can produce double or triple the number of ACs.

We have that potential however, the questions are, will our babus and ministers agree on doing that? will DRDO expedite the development part if they get that grant? will IAF wait for another 5 years (???) and manage with current ACs?

@ersakthivel @TrueSpirit1 @p2prada @Kunal Biswas @Twinblade @pmaitra --- thoughts ?
Rafale is simply the best 4.5 gen fighter readily available to us from a highly trusted partner (France) whose aviation industry is second to none (especially, if you include the civilian sector). Had it been a part of IAF now (in decent numbers), our airpower would have been unrivaled in Asia (not just South Asia but entire Asia).

However, due to bureaucratic red-tape & gaps in long-term planning, the contract has not finalized so far. Tejas FOC is less than 18 months away (max.). Tejas MKII FOC would be completed within 5-7 years. The new Tejas would be as good as latest Mirage2000-5 models that IAF has eyed for long & even better in many respects (except for slight constraint in range + payload). There is no reason why Tejas MKII should not be inducted in big numbers. IAF has already committed to it. Just that, the numbers should be hiked significantly.

Now, within a decade, we would have a flying squadrons of FGFA, Super-Su's, upgraded Mirage, upgraded Mig29 (a true multirole, just simply air-superiority), upgraded Jaguar, naval Mig29's & Tejas- all in IAF colors in our skies Qualitatively, we would be second to none in Asia. To make up for the numbers, & in keeping with IAF's budget constraints, Tejas should be inducted in numbers that would allow economy of scale. Export market would be an added advantage.

Envisioning the above scenario, I do not see where Rafale fits. Rafale would have been a splendid workhorse if ordered 5-6 years years or even till 2-3 years ago. However, we are late which is a boon in disguise for us. The fortitude & unwavering commitment of ADA folks has given us Tejas- which is second to none & is the perfect fit for a war of attrition- which is what it would be like, in any future conflict with ChinPak.

Having said that, the contract for Rafale would be signed & we would see it flying in IAF colors, within 2 years.

& there is nothing we can do about it.
 
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redragon

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Looks like all I have predict about IAF buying Rafale was too optimitic. And now all the evidences our patriot Moderator was asking are everywhere. I knew you won't get Rafale till 2016 if not forever.
 

p2prada

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I posted many weeks ago that MRCA costs have ballooned to $28 Billion.

Anyway, nothing surprising here. Of course, I don't know how the Finance Minister will react to it, but that's yet to be seen.

The options clause may be put on hold instead.
 

DivineHeretic

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I posted many weeks ago that MRCA costs have ballooned to $28 Billion.

Anyway, nothing surprising here. Of course, I don't know how the Finance Minister will react to it, but that's yet to be seen.

The options clause may be put on hold instead.
It will be very difficult to justify your medium strike aircraft costing twice your principle air superiority aircraft. And in any case,@ $150 million, we have no reason not to open discussions with Eurofighter Typhoon, at the least, if not indicate willingness to scrap the deal completely.
 

Drsomnath999

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Rafale looks to the future


Two Rafales in the sky over Mali. The operational maturity of the aircraft has been clearly demonstrated.

AESA radar, multi-mission capability, data fusion "¦ the Rafale is without doubt a step ahead of its European rivals Typhoon and Gripen. The F3 standard in 2008 gave the aircraft the multi-role capability that had been planned from the outset of the programme. So what's next ?

The new F3-R standard should be qualified by the French defence procurement agency (DGA) in 2018. An initial risk-reduction contract had been awarded at the end of 2012, in order to define the scope of the new standard, which had always been planned as a software upgrade. That means it can be installed on all the Rafales delivered to date.

Under the pressure of budget constraints, the F3-R standard was ultimately defined as a minimal standard, ensuring the workload of industry design bureaux while keeping the aircraft competitive on the export market. Rafale programme director Marc Howyan says a total of around one billion euros has been earmarked for work on the F3-R standard and this will « irrigate » the entire fighter aircraft industrial sector.

New-generation laser designator pod.
The new standard represents a step forward in two main sectors : air-to-air combat and air-to-ground targeting. In the latter case, the integration of the PDL NG new-generation laser designator pod should overcome the limitations of the current Damocles pod. Howyan notes that the PDL NG development and integration schedule is the tightest part of the F3-R programme. In just four years, Thales has to develop a new pod and integrate it onto the aircraft alongside Dassault. Even though risk-reduction work has already been completed, it still represents a major challenge, which will mobilise the majority of ground and in-flight test resources.


Aircraft B340 was one of the first Rafales to be fitted with the new AESA radar.

On the other hand, if the PDL NG lives up to its promise, it wll bring a significant boost in performance over the Damocles pod, with the addition of an enhanced-resolution infrared matrix, a new TV channel and compliance with new close air support standards. The only regret is that the total acquisition has been cut from 45 units to 20. Consequently, the total cost, initially estimated at €450 million (not included in the €1 billion for development of the F3-R), will have to be revised downward.

The Meteor missile, which recently gained final qualification by the six partner nations, constitutes the other major « building block » of the F3-R standard. According to Howyan, Meteor integration could be complete by mid-2017. French Rafales will be able to carry two Meteors, on the rear lateral fuselage points currently reserved for the Mica.

Meteor missile integration.
Following initial separation trials in October 2012, the real integration work should get under way this year. Several firings will be necessary to validate the man-machine interface and the aircraft/missile datalink with both versions of the radar, though it is the AESA radar that will able to fully exploit the potential of the new weapon, whose maximum range is thought to be well in excess of 100 km. On the negative side, the French acquisition target was reduced by half in the latest round of budget adjustments, which means that only 100 missiles will be ordered. According to the DGA, however, an option has been negotiated for the possible order of a fresh batch of missiles after 2019.

Though the scope of the F3-R standard has been defined on a minimum basis, it is not limited to the PDL NG and Meteor. Howyan indicates that other modifications are planned, such as a Link 16 upgrade, integration of a Mode 5-compatible IFF and the acquisition of a new in-flight refuelling pod for French Navy Rafales. Furthermore, given that no intermediate standard is planned between F3.4+ and F3-R, the forces have asked to receive some of the modifications under F3-R before 2018. Howyan indicates that intermediate steps have been negotiated in 2016 and 2017 so that users can benefit from improvements in electronic warfare systems and in the operation of the RBE2PESA radar.



M39, seen here at Hyères, is the first Navy Rafale from the fourth production batch.

Programme officials indicate that the DGA currently aims to fully qualify the F3-R standard by mid-2018, but the DGA, industry and the armed forces are already looking beyond that. The Head of the DGA, Laurent Collet-Billon, tells Air&Cosmos that Rafale F3-R and F4 and the FCAS UCAV demonstrator are guided by the same "investment logic", which is to ensure that combat aviation continues to develop at the highest level, with a resolutely open architecture. He adds that this also ensures a product line in the long term that meets the requirements of the export market.

Next: Rafale F4?
Two major targets for this future software upgrade are already clear: development/integration of upgraded versions of current weapons (Mica, Scalp, ASMP-A), and interoperability. A number of preliminary studies are in progress to mature some of the technologies that will be needed for this hypothetical Rafale F4: enhanced performance of the AESA radar and the Spectra electronic warfare system, increased connectivity, as well as reduced global cost of ownership. There is no shortage of ideas, pending the arrival of a future mid-life upgrade around 2030, which will probably entail a variety of modifications, such as cockpit renovation or the integration of "stealth kits".

In the meantime, the Rafale continues to go about its operational duties in the French Air Force and Navy. In 2013, both forces received their first aircraft from the fourth, "4T" production batch with the new AESA version of the RBE2 radar. For the Air Force, entry into operational service of this new capacity with 1/7 fighter squadron "Provence" is targeted for early this year.The first Rafale AESA (M39) for the Aéronautique navale arrived in early December at the CEPA test centre at Istres for completion of naval air trials.

In Autumn 2014, the DGA should qualify a new intermediate standard which, in theory, will be the last before the arrival of the F3-R. Designated F3.4+, it includes "improvements in air-to-air fire control, man-machine interface and terrain-following during transitions from radar modes to digital data", according to an Air Force source. Modifications have also been introduced in flight safety, with the introduction of an unusual-position warning system and an emergency brake energy management system. The F3.4+ standard should be operational with the French forces in 2015, on completion of trials at the CEAM and CEPA test centres.
Rafale looks to the future - Air&Cosmos
 

Abhijeet Dey

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dna exclusive: 100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability
No comment as of yet from Indian Air Force, HAL and Ministry of Defence on price escalation of Rafale jets. This shows that they don't care about the sensitivity of this price increase by Dassault Aviation.

In the name of national security (such as threat from China) IAF will buy this french aircraft anyway in one way or another.
 

anoop_mig25

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No comment as of yet from Indian Air Force, HAL and Ministry of Defence on price escalation of Rafale jets. This shows that they don't care about the sensitivity of this price increase by Dassault Aviation.

In the name of national security (such as threat from China) IAF will buy this french aircraft anyway in one way or another.
Well they are keeping quiet for reason , they might scarp mmrca at all and have a backdoor entry for another fighter plane in name of cost saving
 

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