Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

The SH always carried more than 6 a2a missiles and doesn't require any re-certification.

Quoting a former SH pilot that no one is aware of is quite convenient.

As for CISMOA and LSA, EUMA was also non-negotiable yet we are the only nation to have it such inspections at a time and place of our choosing. Everything is negotiable and nothing remains constant, its all about leverage and 'balls' you either have them or you don't.

60% percent TOT is roughly what we're getting from Dassault anyways, no reason why Unkil won't meet that, as for the US Congress ( they are up for sale-legally)

Playing ball in Libya or Georgia or even Israel or even Iraq isn't a big deal for Unkil. China is a whole different ball game, playing in the pacific requires Unkil's consent, its still the largest force over there and things can turn very ugly if India doesn't play safe.

Offcourse the IAF doesn't care about savings from LCA's engine commonality, they are the worst in terms of planning and these days it seems to be run more by greedy business men and traitors.They are the least efficient of all the forces at the moment.

As for the Aussie Growlers, strange they still buy them and in terms of EA even without the jammers, its still more of a Demon than a Rafale ever will. Moreover by 2020 a new jammer wil be fielded so Growler will remain current.

The fact remains the deal is tainted and some rich and powerful cunts within the country and outside have joined hands to make this deal happen, large amount of money already changed hands and very funny to see people with jack exp in Aerospace going to be building the bird's sophisticated avionics in India.

Rafale for India, capable as it is, is a disaster in the making with billions squandered away on an expensive bird.

Even the Mig-35, F-16 Block 60s were better choices. Heck after the Paris Air Show, I am even super glad if we actually order the Su-35, that thing will out perform all the other birds in competition.

200 Su-35s is the best way forward if dealing with Unkil is not an option for such a crucial deal. At the very least we strengthen our key strategic relationship.

 

[Immanuel]

Now.. they'll be very quick to sign this deal before elections (the money gained from the deal will be wisely spent this is already going to be the most expensive general alection ever held) cash required. In various places across the nation, truck loads of cash, appartment keys with large built in spacious closets are being exchanged cash is king and plenty is being moved around already)

It's great to be an MP these days

 

[halloweene]

France lost 60000 soldiers in 3 weks during WW2.

Treating us as cowards is an inslut i'll report. Wont talk anymore to you.

 

[p2prada]

The US controls more of France any day than India anyways, ze French ran with their tails in WW2, save for Unkil France wouldn't exist. We all know what cowards the french are, no need to go into this.

Mostly silly jibes here.

The SH always carried more than 6 a2a missiles and doesn't require any re-certification.

I was talking about the 14 missile load. Yes, it requires major recertification apart from the fact that they will never use such a configuration in a real war.

Quoting a former SH pilot that no one is aware of is quite convenient.

Huh? Do you think pilots are listed on teen magazines? Just because you don't know a pilot does not mean anything.

As for CISMOA and LSA, EUMA was also non-negotiable yet we are the only nation to have it such inspections at a time and place of our choosing. Everything is negotiable and nothing remains constant, its all about leverage and 'balls' you either have them or you don't.

EUM and LSA are fine. But CISMOA is not fine at all. It is very dangerous, especially during the time where we are focussing networking.

60% percent TOT is roughly what we're getting from Dassault anyways, no reason why Unkil won't meet that, as for the US Congress ( they are up for sale-legally)

No, the US won't give us 60% ToT. Heck we will be lucky to get 20%. They would actually prefer 0%. Note this is for radars and other electronic equipment, not the airframe and engine where the demand may be near 100%.

Playing ball in Libya or Georgia or even Israel or even Iraq isn't a big deal for Unkil. China is a whole different ball game, playing in the pacific requires Unkil's consent, its still the largest force over there and things can turn very ugly if India doesn't play safe.

India doesn't need anybody's consent to do anything.

Offcourse the IAF doesn't care about savings from LCA's engine commonality, they are the worst in terms of planning and these days it seems to be run more by greedy business men and traitors.They are the least efficient of all the forces at the moment.

That's not how it works in India. We work with entirely different platforms, like the Russian or the Chinese. We don't work like the Americans do. So commonality reasons are not entirely necessary for us. IAF works based on a budget and if the budget allows different aircraft, then IAF will accept the added cost.

Jaguars, Mig-29, Mirage-2000, MKI, Rafale and LCA all have different engines. It doesn't make sense for IAF to keep engines common on just 2 platforms in this case, especially when one is American (had we chosen SH) and the other is still a development product. The less the commonality, the less likely are sanctions going to affect us. That's a major advantage to have. Sanctions would mean around 400 aircraft would end up being grounded instead only the LCA Mk2 is likely to be grounded.

The purpose of the demand for industrial ToT is to prevent sanctions from hurting operational capability. The Americans do not provide such a happy deal.

As for the Aussie Growlers, strange they still buy them and in terms of EA even without the jammers, its still more of a Demon than a Rafale ever will. Moreover by 2020 a new jammer wil be fielded so Growler will remain current.

What a load of crap? Do you understand the words when I say these jammers are not available for export? The Aussie Growlers are lemons. They don't carry ECM equipment which makes a Growler a Growler. The deal with the Aussies is simple. The Americans will rig it up to a Growler aircraft status, but most of the EW equipment won't be provided. The Aussies will have to find their own jamming equipment in the international market. They call it the Growler-lite, but is is just a SH without a jammer. And without CISMOA, this is a no deal.

The fact remains the deal is tainted and some rich and powerful cunts with the country and outside have joined hands to make this deal happen, large amount of money already changed hands and very funny to see people with jack exp in Aerospace going to be building the bird's sophisticated avionics in India.

They would be cunts had they chosen SHs.

How is BEL "people with jack exp in avionics?" Heck they are the only ones who build aircraft avionics for our military. This includes Jaguars and MKI upgrades and also Mirage-2000.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Defence Industry: Thales, BEL to form Joint Venture Company for Radars

The French aerospace company Thales and India's Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) have announced a joint venture to produce civil and military applications radars.

Thales will have 26 per cent share as allowed by the Indian foreign investment rules and BEL 74 percent.

Notably, the state-run BEL has become the prime Indian company for producing electronic warfare and civil application systems, and a majority of contracts under the offsets and technology transfer programmes are likely to go to it.

BEL offers products and services in Radars, Military Communications, Naval Systems, Electronic Warfare Systems, C4I Systems, Telecommunications, Sound and Vision Broadcasting, Opto-Electronics, Tank Electronics, Solar Photovoltaic Systems, Embedded Software and Electronic Components.

This is what happens when you come to a discussion with no substance and only hot air.

Rafale for India, capable as it is, is a disaster in the making with billions squandered away on an expensive bird.
Even the Mig-35, F-16 Block 60s were better choices. Heck after the Paris Air Show, I am even super glad if we actually order the Su-35, that thing will out perform all the other birds in competition.

Rafale was scored far better than SH in every single deal to date. Heck SH could not even beat MKI in Malaysia, let alone comparing to Rafale in Korea and Singapore. Note the MKI was configured a decade before Rafale was.

200 Su-35s is the best way forward if dealing with Unkil is not an option for such a crucial deal. At the very least we strengthen our key strategic relationship.

The MRCA deal was made in such a way that Sukhoi could not bid in it. That was one of the purposes of the deal. The IAF wanted a western aircraft, not another Russian aircraft.

 

[Immanuel]

Don't get me wrong gents, Rafale is a silly little impressive bird but just not the ideal one, it IMO is being acquired at great expense while cheaper and equally capable options exist. I more against the lack of economic thinking andc about wastage of precious paises, we have many more avenues to invest in and as said before it all comes from the same pot. In whatever form SH is a cheaper option, so are the mig-35, F-16 block 70, Gripen, they all with adequate tweaking can meet the requirements set by the IAF.

Thank goodness MRCA doesn't have to work alone in our world of MKIs, mig-29s, LCAs, Mirages, it is but a crucial piece of the pie where a good all-rounder required and sure Rafale in its own way does full-fill the role and can do so brilliantly, what really bothers me is the cost and additonal benefits.

 

[Immanuel]

I fear not with BEL, I worry more about the suspicious involvement of Reliance.

 

[sayareakd]

I fear not with BEL, I worry more about the suspicious involvement of Reliance.

i think people have issues with how to rely on Reliance.

 

[Shirman]

LoL bro @Immanuel money should be looked in such a way that its well spent Mig and F-16s version were upgraded so did Jas-39 Gripen during MMRCA selection when in the end they all offered their IN/ BLK-70 NG/ Next generation versions.........Like i said Pakis are already scared and doesn't want Rafale, Eurofighter or F/a-18 Super Hornet in Indian AF Fleet..........they already know the weakness of Eurofighter via Saudi, Italian and U.K. Joint exercises which they think they will manage with their JFT future upgrades..........Super Hornet and Rafales are still mystery to them and to make their matter worse they can't handle the uncertainty what future upgraded variants of both will bring in next 10 to 20 years..............

Oh and One thing Never trust Americans see what they have done to PAF with the entire F-16 SAGA......If it weren't for OBL, Al-queida, War on terror pakis were still begging for f-16s even now............Infact Pakis say Americans destroyed Pafs procurement plans in late 2000s and mid 1990s..........

 

[Immanuel]

Well I can understand IAF is apprehensive of Unkil's goodies. However, I do think Su-35 should be looked at since by looking at mig-35 IAF did give Russia a shot at the deal. However, I just hope for all money being spent we aren't screwed out of TOT. Indeed the appearance of Reliance in this deal is cause of much concern since they have never done anything clean.

 

[p2prada]

The final integrator is still HAL. Reliance has no part in the assembly as Dassault wanted.

 

[halloweene]

Dassault only wanted a second supply chain from private sector.

 

[TrueSpirit]

France lost 60000 soldiers in 3 weks during WW2.

Treating us as cowards is an inslut i'll report. Wont talk anymore to you.

I just did that, plz don't bother.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Keep Thread Clean, I am doing the Cleaning of Posts, Will not follow the same next time..


=====================

Respect ..

France lost 60000 soldiers in 3 weks during WW2..

 

[pankaj nema]

If you want a Good deal you must prove to the seller that you have similar if not better options

So if India had not got what it wanted we would have simply ordered More Su 30 or even gone for Su 35

The Mirage upgrade negotiations also dragged on for TWO years

And it involved only 2 Billion Dollars compared to 20 Billion here

So our negotiators should not be blamed for being HARD Nosed

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not a Solution nor it would have been, There was an article published saying the same which IAF rejected..

Flankers are heavy class fighters not medium class, that is why you did not saw a flanker in MRCA competition..

So if India had not got what it wanted we would have simply ordered More Su 30 or even gone for Su 35

 

[halloweene]

No blame. Squad 1/2 "Cigognes" M2K are going to be prolonged to 9000 hours lifaspan. So one could guess its also the case of modernized indian M2K. + Spectra like EW suite, + RDY3 +... Noone knows. When i asked Dassault they told me "when a car seller sells a car, he will not communicate on options to anyone except the client. Its the client will to communicate about that"
@Kunal i'm cooling down, But when i see my grandad's medals with 6 stars over them, i can get lil crazy when french are called cowards.

 

[pankaj nema]

Not a Solution nor it would have been, There was an article published saying the same which IAF rejected..

Flankers are heavy class fighters not medium class, that is why you did not saw a flanker in MRCA competition..

That article which IAF denied was ALSO implying that IAF has No other Option
but to go in for Su 30 if negotiations failed

That denial implied that negotiations were not going well at that point of time
BUT it also implied that we still had hopes that France would accept our legitimate demands

In fact for capability accretion in a short time period we had NO other choice

Neither Eurofighter Nor Super Hornet

The recent Su 35 purchase by China as well as the praise received in the
Paris air show has also played a part here IMO

We Need the Rafale because we want to ALSO get the Best of Western Technology
along with FGFA and MKI ie Russian Technology

But we were not that desperate or helpless given the Increasing reputation of Flankers

And Weight is Not more important than War Fighting Capabilities

 

[Kunal Biswas]

When referring Heavy Class Fighters in Indian context specially MRCA, I meant the specific requirement of MRCA in terms of Maintenance time and cost so does Operational cost as main factors..

Flankers does fit in MRCA requirement, Rather we would have purchased EF-2000 or MIG-35 or make more Tejas MK2..

And Weight is Not more important than War Fighting Capabilities

 

[halloweene]

BTW, answer to my contest is first fighter to operate from carrier deck with heavier payload then its empty weight

 

[pankaj nema]

When referring Heavy Class Fighters in Indian context specially MRCA, I meant the specific requirement of MRCA in terms of Maintenance time and cost so does Operational cost as main factors..

Flankers does fit in MRCA requirement, Rather we would have purchased EF-2000 or MIG-35 or make more Tejas MK2..

Mig 35 and Tejas Mk 2 do not exist

EF Typhoon was ruled out Because the Brits would have harrassed us immensely
for earlier rejecting Typhoon and derived a lot of pleasure doing do

And worst of all they would have given even LESS TOT than the French ie " Take it or leave it "

More Su 30 would have meant that we can have a more powerful air force ASAP
And let us not forget the Super Su 30 that we are about to have

Even the Russians would have sniggered and said
" We told you so We are your Only friends "

Anyway ALL is well that ends well