Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kunal Biswas]

I dont know what you talking here..

This is a clean business deal, If some one think Europeans would harrassed or something, He simple does not understand the gravity of this sale for Europe and EF-2000 program..

As i said Flankers does not fall in MRCA category hence they cannot fill the place for MRCA, Super flanker upgrade is not just for new MKI but rest of them also..

Russian are Business men just like others, They are not Soviats..

Mig 35 and Tejas Mk 2 do not exist

EF Typhoon was ruled out Because the Brits would have harrassed us immensely
for earlier rejecting Typhoon and derived a lot of pleasure doing do

And worst of all they would have given even LESS TOT than the French ie " Take it or leave it "

More Su 30 would have meant that we can have a more powerful air force ASAP
And let us not forget the Super Su 30 that we are about to have

Even the Russians would have sniggered and said
" We told you so We are your Only friends "

Anyway ALL is well that ends well

 

[pankaj nema]

It was not just a business deal

This Rafale VS Eurofighter was a question of Rafale's survival

Right now We are NOT hearing that EF Typhoon is shutting down its assembly lines simply
because FOUR countries are supporting it

Typhoon was expecting that If India rejected them It would be the end of Rafale

The RACIST outburst against India after we rejected the typhoon showed the true nature of the Brits

And add to it the Brits are 51st state of USA .

Sir do you recall how the Brits harrassed us after Pokhran 2 for spares of Sea King Helicopters
because US asked them to do so

When it comes to India and the West
business does not REMAIN , ONLY Business

 

[pankaj nema]

We opted for French Rafale over the Super Hornet because
we still do not trust USA completely

So going back to USA was also ruled out

If Rafale deal HAD Failed we had ONLY One Option ie More Su 30 or
say 24 Su 35 along with 100 More Su 30

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot say much about these issues specially judging from open sources

But as far as flankers for MRCA goes, You have the answer..

 

[Snuggy321]

We opted for French Rafale over the Super Hornet because
we still do not trust USA completely

So going back to USA was also ruled out

If Rafale deal HAD Failed we had ONLY One Option ie More Su 30 or
say 24 Su 35 along with 100 More Su 30

If the Rafale deal had failed the next option would be the 2end place = EFT.

 

[halloweene]

Think i extensively posted about that, with direct info from PAS13 didnt i? Plz refer. Main prob now is the insutrial "meccano" to be built, that is synchronizing ToT and industrialization process, combined with a ramping up of indigenous inputs. In France there are 500 subcontractors. Their equivalent have been identified already, and are now audited so as to know how ToTmust shape (including tech advisors etc). All these subcontractors will sign a separate licence contract. Dassault must define when they'll be able to produce parts. And synchronize that with plane industrialization process. Not an easy task. And finally, an overall contract will be signed. lets guess in december.

 

[p2prada]

BTW, answer to my contest is first fighter to operate from carrier deck with heavier payload then its empty weight

We always knew that when it came to the Rafale C. Even 6 AASM, 2 tanks and 6 missiles pushed it above empty weight at full fuel.

But this is a first for the Rafale M. :thumb:

 

[p2prada]

If the Rafale deal had failed the next option would be the 2end place = EFT.

No. There is no "next" option. If Rafale deal fails, which is highly unlikely given the circumstances, IAF will have to create a new tender or get into a govt to govt deal with any other contractor. A new tender is most likely. The bid amounts for EFT will be null and void today.

 

[p2prada]

Think i extensively posted about that, with direct info from PAS13 didnt i? Plz refer. Main prob now is the insutrial "meccano" to be built, that is synchronizing ToT and industrialization process, combined with a ramping up of indigenous inputs. In France there are 500 subcontractors. Their equivalent have been identified already, and are now audited so as to know how ToTmust shape (including tech advisors etc). All these subcontractors will sign a separate licence contract. Dassault must define when they'll be able to produce parts. And synchronize that with plane industrialization process. Not an easy task. And finally, an overall contract will be signed. lets guess in december.

India has a lot of experience in this. All the screw driver assembly we have been doing over the last 50 years will be put to good use for Rafale deal.

HAL has subcontracted 25% of the MKI's work to Indian private sector. In case of Rafale, it could very well be as high as 50%, maybe more.

 

[devil510]

@p2pprada
I was reading on some other forum that for example MIG 29 or Mig 21s were falling out of the skies, because Indian manufacturer such as HAL were not good enough. One of the main problem i was reading in Rafael Deal is too that France does not want to take responsibility for what will be builded in india as they also think HAL is not up to the PAR, and i agree with it, because HAL is still is not on PAR with International Standards. Yes they have experience as far Tejas, MIG's and some other Air crafts, But HAL does have some serious quality Issues. The Quality Control of HAL sucks, because of "Chalta Hai Attitude".

The problem is not in the Engineering, but with people's Day to Day Attitude.

For example LCA Tejas, Kaveri, and so many other Projects.

This is one of the biggest reason the Delay is Happening in Rafael Deal

 

[pankaj nema]

No. There is no "next" option. If Rafale deal fails, which is highly unlikely given the circumstances, IAF will have to create a new tender or get into a govt to govt deal with any other contractor. A new tender is most likely. The bid amounts for EFT will be null and void today.

And how much time we would loose Negotiating a new Contract with Eurofighter IF
The Negotiations in Rafale deal Fails

China is Adding Many Squadrons of J 10 / J 11 Rapidly

And Now Su 35

We cant waste any more time

 

[halloweene]

@p2, as i said before, i had long discussions with some Dassault officials at PAS13. They want to be sure that everything will go smoothly before signing. Atm they go to audit each subcontrators of the two supply chains in order to define how long ToT and industrialization process will be long, and how much help will be needed. In fact, they want to organize things so as to signature date, they can say : on rafale number X, french part will be replaced by indian made part made by this sucontractor, and will arrive right in time for the construcion of the plane. In order to do so, french subcontractor will welcome n indian engineers to train them (during z months), then will send technical advisors (with certain number and duration) etc. Multiply that by the number of french and indian subcontractors...

 

[devil510]

that will take atleast two years after contract is signed

 

[p2prada]

@p2pprada
I was reading on some other forum that for example MIG 29 or Mig 21s were falling out of the skies, because Indian manufacturer such as HAL were not good enough. One of the main problem i was reading in Rafael Deal is too that France does not want to take responsibility for what will be builded in india as they also think HAL is not up to the PAR, and i agree with it, because HAL is still is not on PAR with International Standards. Yes they have experience as far Tejas, MIG's and some other Air crafts, But HAL does have some serious quality Issues. The Quality Control of HAL sucks, because of "Chalta Hai Attitude".

Mig-29s did not receive proper spares support. However the crash rate of IAF Mig-29s is better than PAF F-16s.

However the MKIs are doing quite well.

EDIT: A very tiny portion of the Mig-21 crashes were attributed to manufacturing defects. Most of the problems were attributed to faults, human error etc.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/air-chief-s-mig-claim-flies-in-face-of-facts/887153/

Analysing the causes behind 1,000 fighter crashes over the past several decades, the data attributes pilot error to 39 per cent of all crashes, saying technical faults are behind a slightly bigger number (39.5 per cent). Other crashes were attributed to bird hits (9 per cent), human error on ground (1.5 per cent) and faults in production by HAL (0.6 per cent).

 

[p2prada]

And how much time we would loose Negotiating a new Contract with Eurofighter IF
The Negotiations in Rafale deal Fails

China is Adding Many Squadrons of J 10 / J 11 Rapidly

And Now Su 35

We cant waste any more time

We can't help it. Cancellation of deals and tenders has happened before. The latest were the refueler tender, Javelin tender and many more.

If Rafale deal gets cancelled, the process will start all over again.

 

[p2prada]

that will take atleast two years after contract is signed

HAL would have already identified partners since 2007.

Work will begin in bits and pieces after contract signing.

 

[WMD]

We can't help it. Cancellation of deals and tenders has happened before. The latest were the refueler tender, Javelin tender and many more.

If Rafale deal gets cancelled, the process will start all over again.

are you talking abt the IAF tender for A-330MRTT??

 

[p2prada]

are you talking abt the IAF tender for A-330MRTT??

Yes. It was cancelled the first time because MoF thought it was too expensive.

The second time it beat IL-78 based on life cycle costs.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Yes. It was cancelled the first time because MoF thought it was too expensive.

The second time it beat IL-78 based on life cycle costs.

And, what was the final decision ? I mean, the current status for the refueler tender.

 

[halloweene]

A330 MRTT selected.