Know Your 'Rafale'

[jalsa]

welll exact value is classified ,no body can tell u accurately the exact figures but it's value is estimated to be around 1 m2 or less than that but no way greater than 1m2
according to global security

Radar Cross Section (RCS)

but one should remember that if rafale's SPECTRA is turned on, then rafale's detection range by enemy AWACS/Jets/SAM radars decreases dramatically .

RCS of 1m2 for fully weaponized rafale is very good, one more thing, do we get the meteor along with the first batch of rafale?

 

[Drsomnath999]

RCS of 1m2 for fully weaponized rafale is very good,

see !!
whther fully weaponized or with no weapons that is not specified properly but we can assume 1m2 or lesser the right value

one more thing, do we get the meteor along with the first batch of rafale?

of course it would be inclueded in MMRCA package

 

[p2prada]

welll exact value is classified ,no body can tell u accurately the exact figures but it's value is estimated to be around 1 m2 or less than that but no way greater than 1m2
according to global security

Radar Cross Section (RCS)

but one should remember that if rafale's SPECTRA is turned on, then rafale's detection range by enemy AWACS/Jets/SAM radars decreases dramatically .

A clean Rafale's RCS is in the 0.1m2 range. It is no way what Global security claims to be true. But, yeah, the radar return is in the negative dB, so it is more stealthy than other 4th gen designs. Gripen C is officially said to have an RCS of 0.1m2.

Spectra can degrade radar returns, but that can be achieved by other aircraft jammers too. The trick is to remain stealthy without emitting signals, that is the essence of 5th gen. Spectra signals are an unnecessary risk no matter what the manufacturer claims. It can always be compromised and the Rafale pilot won't even know it until it is too late.

 

[p2prada]

RCS of 1m2 for fully weaponized rafale is very good, one more thing, do we get the meteor along with the first batch of rafale?

That won't be right. The smaller it is, any hotspot on the airframe will be a greater source of return. Adding missiles on Rafale will increase the aircraft's RCS. An aircraft like F-16 may find it difficult to spot the bird, but an aircraft like F-15 will spot it immediately. A weaponized Rafale may reflect lesser than clean F-15, F-16, Mig-29, Su-27 or Su-30, all the aircraft it was designed to be superior to in specific parameters. But the return will be humongous, as in 100s and 1000s of times, compared to 5th gen designs.

The problem is Rafale was designed during the time when radars were not specifically very good. As in what the F-16 can do now, that was the best Su-27 could do at those times. All this talk of tracking a small fighter sized target at hundreds of Km did not exist during those times. So, Rafale with a basic level of stealth was very good. Now radar development has reached a point where Rafale claiming it is stealthy is absurd, to the point of being hilarious.

We simply have to make do with the best we got. We have to hope that the Chinese avionics don't catch up with the West, or the French in particular, for at least 1 - 2 decades before Rafale becomes completely obsolete, because electronics are the Rafale's strongest points. Since we are not planning on fighting the USAF, we can only hope Rafale becomes obsolete at best after 2030, the same time as aircraft like J-20 and J-xx mature and become major threats. By then even our FGFA will be mature and we would have started full scale inductions of AMCA, forcing Rafale to, a safe, second place. If we are fighting USAF, then Rafale is already obsolete.

As for Meteor, why settle for lesser when we are paying top dollars for it. Mica is an old missile anyway.

 

[jalsa]

That won't be right. The smaller it is, any hotspot on the airframe will be a greater source of return. Adding missiles on Rafale will increase the aircraft's RCS. An aircraft like F-16 may find it difficult to spot the bird, but an aircraft like F-15 will spot it immediately. A weaponized Rafale may reflect lesser than clean F-15, F-16, Mig-29, Su-27 or Su-30, all the aircraft it was designed to be superior to in specific parameters. But the return will be humongous, as in 100s and 1000s of times, compared to 5th gen designs.

The problem is Rafale was designed during the time when radars were not specifically very good. As in what the F-16 can do now, that was the best Su-27 could do at those times. All this talk of tracking a small fighter sized target at hundreds of Km did not exist during those times. So, Rafale with a basic level of stealth was very good. Now radar development has reached a point where Rafale claiming it is stealthy is absurd, to the point of being hilarious.

We simply have to make do with the best we got. We have to hope that the Chinese avionics don't catch up with the West, or the French in particular, for at least 1 - 2 decades before Rafale becomes completely obsolete, because electronics are the Rafale's strongest points. Since we are not planning on fighting the USAF, we can only hope Rafale becomes obsolete at best after 2030, the same time as aircraft like J-20 and J-xx mature and become major threats. By then even our FGFA will be mature and we would have started full scale inductions of AMCA, forcing Rafale to, a safe, second place. If we are fighting USAF, then Rafale is already obsolete.

As for Meteor, why settle for lesser when we are paying top dollars for it. Mica is an old missile anyway.

Do you think SPECTRA is overrated? it will be useful when we go against PLAAF whose radar technology is not up to the standards of the west but it will not fare very well against the J20. The chinese avionics may catchup with the west by the time J20 becomes a mature platform and then we will have real problem but thankfully we will have PAK-FA to counter it

 

[p2prada]

Yeah. Spectra is overrated. Among all equivalent operational systems today, it is the best. Best doesn't mean superior. Also it will be overshadowed by newer suites being made around the world, especially the F-35s suites. One being made by BAE and the other by Lockheed Martin.

Also notice I used the word equivalent, Growler is not Rafale's equivalent. So, Growler already overshadows the Rafale.

Within the decade, I don't know a more specific time frame, pretty much all modern IAF aircraft will have a Spectra type internal suite. Super MKI, LCA Mk2 and both FGFA and AMCA in the future. Mig-29 is also being equipped with an advanced internal suite. From what we know, all new aircraft, except LCA will come with AESA suites like Spectra.

MKI and Mig-29 will most probably see Indian made Spectra equivalent suites (JVs between Elisra and DARE). Rafale already comes with Spectra. LCA Mk2 will be equipped with PESA rather than AESA modules. Overall, they will all function similar to Spectra.

 

[Drsomnath999]

A clean Rafale's RCS is in the 0.1m2 range. It is no way what Global security claims to be true. But, yeah, the radar return is in the negative dB, so it is more stealthy than other 4th gen designs. Gripen C is officially said to have an RCS of 0.1m2.

exact value is impossible to answer apart from claims .But yes i also feel G.S values are overrated but if it assumes rafale fully weaponized with fuel tanks answer may be correct

Spectra can degrade radar returns, but that can be achieved by other aircraft jammers too. The trick is to remain stealthy without emitting signals, that is the essence of 5th gen.



Spectra signals are an unnecessary risk no matter what the manufacturer claims. It can always be compromised and the Rafale pilot won't even know it until it is too late.

another typhoon starstrek forum garbage

infact spectra is the life saving EW suite for Rafale pilots if u take it away rafale pilots better have their insurance premium upto date

 

[p2prada]

Naa. Spectra is a regular jammer emitting a bit more refined signals. Apart from that, like any other jammer, if it is compromised it is can be used against the aircraft.

Jamming has always been a double edged sword. Spectra or not.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Do you think SPECTRA is overrated? it will be useful when we go against PLAAF whose radar technology is not up to the standards of the west but it will not fare very well against the J20. The chinese avionics may catchup with the west by the time J20 becomes a mature platform and then we will have real problem but thankfully we will have PAK-FA to counter it

dude spectra itself was far ahead of it's time in comparision to all it's other 4th gen fighter counterpart thats not the end either infact SPECTRA NG gonna more advanced with more adavanced antenna components.made up of GaN semi conductors working in X-band. Up to now, they only produced S-band components.
Rafale News: Future Spectra

so better check ur facts before stating it's overrated.

 

[p2prada]

Oooooo Aaaaaaaaaahhh! I'm impressed. Physics stays the same for the waves emitted. Any signal can be detected.

I also don't think you get the point I made. Didn't I say "if it is compromised"?

Everybody is advancing, not just the French. They got it first, doesn't mean it will always stay the best. Others are getting there, some will leave the French behind too.

Apart from that all jammers are double edged swords. It doesn't matter if it is made from solid state devices of vacuum tubes.

 

[Armand2REP]

Naa. Spectra is a regular jammer emitting a bit more refined signals. Apart from that, like any other jammer, if it is compromised it is can be used against the aircraft.

Jamming has always been a double edged sword. Spectra or not.

It isn't a regular jammer. It is a solid state jammer, ie AESA which was revolutionary for the time. It doesn't have the power for stand-off but the number of channels and frequencies it can jam at once is spectacular. It is the only jammer to-date that would give an AESA scan a messed up return. Once active cancellation is perfected it will change the entire face of combat aviation.

 

[p2prada]

It isn't a regular jammer. It is a solid state jammer, ie AESA which was revolutionary for the time. It doesn't have the power for stand-off but the number of channels and frequencies it can jam at once is spectacular. It is the only jammer to-date that would give an AESA scan a messed up return. Once active cancellation is perfected it will change the entire face of combat aviation.

It is a regular jammer. It doesn't have the kind of module count to do what pods can already do. I am not saying Spectra is bad. I am saying lets not put it on a pedestal. Meaning Dassault keeps advertising Rafale's "Omnirole" capability that can help it target an air target and a ground target at once. It is nice to say it and read it on paper but in reality you would still prefer you handle one task at a time and most of the time you would face a single target assignment anyway.

Also, no it is not the only jammer that can play truant with another AESA system. AESA is important, but is definitely overhyped in the media, like it is some kind of one answer to all problems technology. Spectra has everything that other older EW systems have. Like a RWR, MAWS, LWS, a jammer system and a decoy dispenser. Basically, a more refined self protection suite supported by a very advanced CIP based computer system. I suppose that's where Rafale's advantage lies, the computers.

Active cancellation will work against older systems, no point if the enemy ECCM is superior to what your system can manage. Something that will be overhyped in the future but will work only in selective cases, especially when some country's air defence system is still old. Everybody and their brother is researching it now. Actually, this tech is heavily dependent on the enemy systems being inferior. Another double edged sword.

Degrading enemy systems is all well and good, overdoing it is bad when the enemy can counter it. Probably one of the best ways to receive a nice big missile straight up the area where the sun don't shine.

But, yeah. It is one of the firsts of its kind and way better than anything our enemies can field for a long time.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

French company opens Indian subsidiary for Rafale - The Times of India

French company opens Indian subsidiary for Rafale

 

[Drsomnath999]

Oooooo Aaaaaaaaaahhh! I'm impressed. Physics stays the same for the waves emitted. Any signal can be detected.

DHHOOOOOOOO........

hey man!!! who the "F" cares about whether u are impressed or not ??? It is the time tested long evaluation & war proven performance of SPECTRA which have impressed the IAF that compelled them to confess that rafale's spectra Electronic warfare suite far ahead of it's other MMRCA rivals.They dont need your certificate of impression for approving it's worthiness ,atleast surely not from you for sure

Everybody is advancing, not just the French. They got it first, doesn't mean it will always stay the best. Others are getting there, some will leave the French behind too.

meanwhile about it's rivals yes they may be building their own systems ,like it who knows but surely rafale's spectra is the benchmark for them & also dont forget SPECTRA NG is coming next with more advanced tech .

but i am still waiting for that day when a comparable system would be fielded like spectra with ELINT & SIGNIT capabilty

I also don't think you get the point I made. Didn't I say "if it is compromised"?

Apart from that all jammers are double edged swords. It doesn't matter if it is made from solid state devices of vacuum tubes.

.

oh yes !!!
and that u think is so easy as it sounds to u ,to compromise it's signals & invite a Home on jam missile
& thales designer havent researched it unlike you

i

 

[Drsomnath999]

French Dassault opens Indian subsidiary for Rafale deal


Press Trust of India / New Delhi November 28, 2012, 16:35


After bagging the multi-billion dollar contract for supplying 126 Rafale fighter aircraft to IAF, French Dassault Systems has opened an Indian subsidiary company here.

The company named Dassault Aircraft Services India Private Limited (DASIPL) was set up recently and it is 100 per cent owned by its French parent company, officials said here.

The new company is headed by a French national Richard Lavaud, who has worked in India earlier with defence firms,and will work towards finalising the deal with India, they said.

Earlier this year, Dassault Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in the IAF tender for supplying 126 combat aircraft edging out its European rival Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in terms of prices.
The contract has been offered to Dassault and it is negotiating the terms and conditions and the final price of the aircraft with the Indian Defence Ministry officials.

Dassault has also entered into an agreement with Reliance Industries Limited (RIL) for partnering in defence and homeland security sectors in the country.

There was a possibility of the two companies working together in the combat aircraft deal here.

After finalising the deal, Dassault will have to reinvest 50 per cent of the contract's worth back into the Indian defence sector.

Mukesh Ambani-headed RIL has made several efforts in the past to position itself in the defence, internal security and aerospace solutions sectors.

French Dassault opens Indian subsidiary for Rafale deal | Business Standard

 

[Godless-Kafir]

It isn't a regular jammer. It is a solid state jammer, ie AESA which was revolutionary for the time. It doesn't have the power for stand-off but the number of channels and frequencies it can jam at once is spectacular. It is the only jammer to-date that would give an AESA scan a messed up return. Once active cancellation is perfected it will change the entire face of combat aviation.

How stealthy is your frenche bird? I will allow you to boast here.

Also if Raf is very stealthy without weapons could there be a internal weapons bay made just for two AoA missiles?

 

[Drsomnath999]

Air-to-ground firing campaign at Cazaux:

Updated: 28/11/2012 10:23 - Author: Camille Aspiring Gayraud
From 19 to 30 November 2012, the Cazaux airbase 120 hosts a "squadron of passage 'particular consists of Fighter Squadron (EC) 1/7" Provence "Saint-Dizier and fighter regiment 2/30" Normandie-Niemen "of Mont-de-Marsan campaign for air-to-ground pooled. A first in Cazaux!

Supported by the Aeronautical Technical Support Squadrons (ESTA) 15/7 "Haute-Marne" and 2E/118 "Chalosse", the campaign aims to requalify air / ground crew and allows young drivers to deliver the first time the real weapon. Crews maneuvering on the range of Captieux and the website of the Directorate General of Armaments / missile tests (DGA / EM), formerly test center in Biscarrosse Landes.

Units have deployed a total of six Rafale. Patrols operating in two or three Rafale pilots train with a wide range of weapons air / ground: armament air / ground modular (AASM), GBU (Guided Bomb Unit) 12, 22, shells and bombs exercise exercise guided laser (LGTR). Back ground, crews débriefent finely mission and analyze their strafing.

Fans still have until Friday, November 30, the closing date of the launch campaign to admire the Rafale the Air Force in the sky Gironde.

Google-Traduction

 

[Immanuel]

I agree with P2P on this one Spectra is at best a very good EW suite but in no way compares to the Growler's EW suite. DASS and F-15 SG's DAWS is also very good. F-35's DAS out performs any EW suite for the next two decades. Spectra will work fine against the Chinese and Pak for now.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Useing stealth weapons pods for Raf will decrease RC? Fact or Fail?

 

[Drsomnath999]

I agree with P2P on this one Spectra is at best a very good EW suite but in no way compares to the Growler's EW suite.

loollz

buddy try to understand why is growler built ???then u & also everyone would automatically agree that it's EW suite is by default more advanced than Rafale spectra .
meanwhile spectra is an inbuilt system of rafale Rafale doent have to carry external jamming pods to it , infact with addition of RBE 2 aesa radar it's jamming efficacy
would increase further .but yes EA 18 growler jammimg is much more powerful

DASS and F-15 SG's DAWS is also very good. F-35's DAS out performs any EW suite for the next two decades. Spectra will work fine against the Chinese and Pak for now.

F35' eodas has more adavnced system core & much better situational awareness but also NGJ is on the way to be installled on F 35 & EA 18