Know Your 'Rafale'

[ajay_ijn]

Updated: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:12:20 GMT | By Sandeep Unnithan, India Today
IAF's Rafale deal faces delay
AK Antony has ordered a probe into Rafale aircraft deal after charges of irregularities.

Allegations of irregularities in the Indian Air Force's (IAF) deal for 126 fighter aircraft are likely to delay, not derail the $18 billion (Rs.90,000 crore) deal. Defence Minister A.K. Antony ordered a departmental probe into his ministry's January 31 decision to shortlist French firm Dassault to supply the aircraft.

Antony's move came soon after doubts were raised about the evaluation process by an MP.

In January, India announced that Dassault had emerged as the lowest bidder for the contract to supply 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The Dassault Rafale multi-role combat jet edged out its closest competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon, to emerge the cheapest bidder in the world's largest open tender defence contract. On February 27, Telugu Desam Party's Rajya Sabha MP M.V. Mysura Reddy wrote to Antony alleging deviations in procedure. Officials involved in negotiations say the probe will delay the deal by only a "month or two". Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects the deal to be signed before March 31, 2013.

In February, MoD-appointed Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC), comprising the defence ministry's stakeholders, opened negotiations with Dassault. The final proposal will be put before the Cabinet Committee on Security early next year. "The formula for calculating the cheapest aircraft was re-totalled three times, by MoD and IAF," an official told India Today. The controversy arose because mod used 'life cycle costs' to select its finalist. As per this formula, the cheapest aircraft would not be the one with the lowest upfront cost. It would be the aircraft that worked out to be the cheapest over the aircraft's 30-year life cycle. The formula took into account variables like maintenance and engine replacement.

Sources say the Rafale aircraft was $5 million (Rs.250 crore) cheaper than the Typhoon. Losing finalists like the European Consortium found fault with the formula even as European diplomats made fresh proposals to lower the rates of the Typhoon. MoD, however, signalled that the door was shut as it began CNC with Dassault in February. Reddy's letter to Antony has, however, added a twist to the tale.


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whats worse, facing another 62 like humiliating defeat because armed forces weren't well equipped, thanks to our excellent procurement procedures
or
finding that every single guy in defense ministry/military staff made his own cut.

it doesn't matter if its typhoon or rafale or even Gripen, atleast we have got some capable bird. Its will definitely be better than Mig-21Bis, Bison in our service.

I know all this procedure is to select that one capable fighter which meets our requirements and cheaper. But the whole competition doesn't make a sense if IAF finally doesn't get the fighter in the time, or before it becomes oudated.

 

[sukhish]

Updated: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:12:20 GMT | By Sandeep Unnithan, India Today
IAF's Rafale deal faces delay
AK Antony has ordered a probe into Rafale aircraft deal after charges of irregularities.

Allegations of irregularities in the Indian Air Force's (IAF) deal for 126 fighter aircraft are likely to delay, not derail the $18 billion (Rs.90,000 crore) deal. Defence Minister A.K. Antony ordered a departmental probe into his ministry's January 31 decision to shortlist French firm Dassault to supply the aircraft.

Antony's move came soon after doubts were raised about the evaluation process by an MP.

In January, India announced that Dassault had emerged as the lowest bidder for the contract to supply 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The Dassault Rafale multi-role combat jet edged out its closest competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon, to emerge the cheapest bidder in the world's largest open tender defence contract. On February 27, Telugu Desam Party's Rajya Sabha MP M.V. Mysura Reddy wrote to Antony alleging deviations in procedure. Officials involved in negotiations say the probe will delay the deal by only a "month or two". Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects the deal to be signed before March 31, 2013.

In February, MoD-appointed Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC), comprising the defence ministry's stakeholders, opened negotiations with Dassault. The final proposal will be put before the Cabinet Committee on Security early next year. "The formula for calculating the cheapest aircraft was re-totalled three times, by MoD and IAF," an official told India Today. The controversy arose because mod used 'life cycle costs' to select its finalist. As per this formula, the cheapest aircraft would not be the one with the lowest upfront cost. It would be the aircraft that worked out to be the cheapest over the aircraft's 30-year life cycle. The formula took into account variables like maintenance and engine replacement.

Sources say the Rafale aircraft was $5 million (Rs.250 crore) cheaper than the Typhoon. Losing finalists like the European Consortium found fault with the formula even as European diplomats made fresh proposals to lower the rates of the Typhoon. MoD, however, signalled that the door was shut as it began CNC with Dassault in February. Reddy's letter to Antony has, however, added a twist to the tale.


Source: News - Latest News - Breaking News India - Live Update - India Today

it's not at all bad, no body should have an iota of doubt that the process is fair and transparent. if an MP has pointed to some irrregularity, it should investigaged and fixed. wht's the probelm. ignoring somebody suggestion is not helpful. it will only strenghten the process.

 

[ajay_ijn]

it's not at all bad, no body should have an iota of doubt that the process is fair and transparent. if an MP has pointed to some irrregularity, it should investigaged and fixed. wht's the probelm. ignoring somebody suggestion is not helpful. it will only strenghten the process.

it won't strenghten the process, it will destroy its very purpose by denying national security at the time when most needed. Our normal procurement process is extremely complex and filled with redtape . On the top of this, IAF has to test all the fighters in all different weathers, Calculate price in a different way i.e entire life cycle cost. This is after lengthy process of preparing RFQ, RFP, Companies submitted them, MOD taking time to analyse them.

after doing all this, if there is delay in the deal, national security is compromised severely.

may be every other defense deal involves corruption who knows but everytime we stall the deal to catch and punish that person, we are putting entire country at risk.

I definitely want to punish the people in the process taking bribes and responsible for irregularity but i sure don't want to do that while putting my country at risk. We are compromising national security by getting those Arms/weapons so late that they become outdated or Military requirements change, I am not saying Rafale will be oudated but threat scenario, requirements will change and may be in future situations, another fighter may have been better choice than rafale.

 

[anoop_mig25]

what does an tdp MP knows about fighter aircraft. how does he knows that rafael did`nt perform in libyain war?? he is some kind of expert . his letter to MOD is generic in nature and doesnot specifies what wrong has been doen . DEFENCE minister A.K.ANTHONY is too much over caution regarding MMRCA deal. the more they delay the more it cost to india and also delay or scrap may give back door entry to americans,russians that inturn would delay the MMRCA increasing cost

 

[ajay_ijn]

what does an tdp MP knows about fighter aircraft. how does he knows that rafael did`nt perform in libyain war?? he is some kind of expert . his letter to MOD is generic in nature and doesnot specifies what wrong has been doen . DEFENCE minister A.K.ANTHONY is too much over caution regarding MMRCA deal. the more they delay the more it cost to india and also delay or scrap may give back door entry to americans,russians that inturn would delay the MMRCA increasing cost

i am not sure if these idiots know how a fighter plane works or what it is capable of.

What the use of having hundreds of parameters, thousands of pages of RFP, exhaustive procedure to calculate life cycle cost if every other idiot can question and stall the deal?

govt to govt deals with US & Russia are so much better, quicker and smooth. There are issues with deliverly schedules with Russia but thats a different issue, atleast the process is not questioned or delayed by so much due to corruption allegations, lots of paperwork, procedures, formalities can be avoided

Its just so much nice to see all C-130s getting inducted in less than 4 yrs after signing the deal. IAF Chief was stated its a new experience and first time in history that aircraft getting delivered earlier than stipulated date. Consider the frustrating delays in R&D , Production with Indian Industry & procurement process for importing arms, it must have been really pleasant for military to get things done in time.

instead of protracting delays associated with open-tender competition, govt to govt deals would have been so much simpler. We might have already received first batch of rafales.
In this process of selecting cheapest fighter meeting our requirements in open tender, the very meaning & purpose of acquisition is lost.

on top of all this, there are so many issues to figure out with these deals like transfer of technology, license production, offsets, HALs capability to absorb all this & deliver fighters in time, integration/customization of Indias choice, price bargaining etc

 

[p2prada]

Rafale aircraft shunned by all countries | Deccan Chronicle

Why should India buy a combat aircraft that no other country has purchased?

In Libya, in the war against Gaddafi, the Rafale had failed in precision bombing and finally the Typhoon was inducted. The UAE too has rejected the Rafale.

Why do we have such amazing people in our Parliament?

Looks like he wants another Bofors scam in the making with extremely stupid reasons to back up his accusations.

I hope some one tell him that India was the first export customer for Jaguar, Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and MKI. India is doing only what India can do.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Eurofighter tries to spoil the Indian MMRCA Rafale deal

It is not unexpected or unusual in the award of large Indian contracts that the "losing" bidder cries "foul" and claims that the evaluation process was manipulated. From my own experience in the Power industry it is "standard practice" for a losing bidder to enlist the aid of the media, politicians and the courts in crying foul and in trying to get an award to a competitor overturned. Again, from my own experience, such tactics can often delay awards but rarely succeed. Such "spoiling" can cause much rancour with the client and – more often than not – is counter-productive. In marketing and sales for large projects in India, "spoiling" a competitor's award is rather easy but only delays matters and is not really worthwhile. The real sales skill lies in getting to be the lowest bidder and then beating off the "spoilers".

Dassault's Rafale was announced as being the lowest bidder beating the Eurofighter for the $20billion Indian MMRCA contract at the end of January. Now comes the cry of "possible foul" from a Member of the Upper House of Parliament (Rajya Sabha) who is also a member of Parliament's standing Defence Committee. (The MP, MV Mysura Reddy, is a former member of the Congress Party who left to join the regional Telegu Desam party. He has lost 3 elections for Parliament but has been appointed by his party to the Upper House).

I am just surprised that it has taken the Eurofighter lobby so long to mobilise and find a sympathetic politician. Since the contract signature is expected in the new fiscal year (after April 2012) it could be a matter of timing for maximum "spoiling" effect. Journalists are probably being inundated with allegations about the "unfairness" of the various evaluations. No doubt the lobby is also considering court actions to try and delay the award to Dassault for the Rafale. While taking the Government to court can sometimes work to delay matters, it is a course that is fraught with the danger of being blacklisted and is very rarely successful. The Rafale sales team must also be pondering their tactics for beating off the spoilers (and they would be incompetent if they were not doing so). In India the Sales Process is not over until the first down-payment is received and even that is no guarantee that the contract will not be cancelled later. And of course the never-ending negotiations for contract claims start the moment the contract is signed.

From:
http://ktwop.wordpress.com/2012/03/2...eal/#more-7944

Manipulation claim over Indian Rafale jet deal:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-jet-deal.html

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Livefist "(tweeter)
MoD sources: Complaint about how #Rafale was selected in #MMRCA, addressed. Same concerns came up earlier within selection committee. Sorted.

https://twitter.com/#!/livefist

 

[Yusuf]

Livefist "(tweeter)
MoD sources: Complaint about how #Rafale was selected in #MMRCA, addressed. Same concerns came up earlier within selection committee. Sorted.

https://twitter.com/#!/livefist

Well the day one innocuous MP raised the Rafale issue, I thought in my mind, what are the chances of EF guy paying him to ask those questions

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It was Expected, Why so sudden a MP get so technical ? I don't think he ever saw a Rafale or a Eurofighter..

 

[Vishwarupa]

Hope missionaries is not this. Dr Myoora reddy was ex cong MP now joined TDP due to political differences with YSR. YSR was a supporters of missionaries.

 

[lambu]

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd calls bids for new MMRCA complex | idrw.org

Defence aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has invited bids to build a new design and manufacturing complex in Bangalore for MMRCA fighter planes.

The facility is estimated to cost Rs 360 crore and is to be completed two years from the award date.

The IAF is acquiring at least 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to modernise its ageing and depleting fleet.

The MiG-21 fighters are to be phased out from 2014. The Navy is also expected to top up the order.

The tender for the new production unit comes even as the Government's Contract Negotiation Committee is negotiating the cost of procuring the fourth-generation fighters with the finalist vendor, France's Dassault Aviation.

HAL plans to locate it at Challaghatta where it has large tracts of land. The integrated 'green' factory complex will include hangars, runways and residential units.

The area is close to the old international airport, which was closed to commercial flights in May 2008.

The HAL defence airport continues to operate military, VVIP, charter and select non-scheduled flights into and out of Bangalore.

The Ministry of Defence said in February this year that a Contract Negotiation Committee had started negotiations with the L1 MMRCA bidder, France's Dassault.

This was for its lower price over the European Eurofighter consortium for its Typhoon. Dassault — if and when an agreeable price is reached in the coming months and the contract is sealed — will directly supply 18 Rafale MMRCAs to the IAF.

HAL will build the remaining 108 aircraft. It will be its first export of Rafale, which has also been used in Afghanistan and Libya.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Video "Rafale Before Flying" - Dassault Aviation


:thumb:

 

[JAYRAM]

The Complaint Against Rafale & The Govt's Response

March 26, 2012

.....

 

[JAYRAM]

The Govt's Response

Here's Indian Member of Parliament M.V. Mysura Reddy's complaint to the Defence Minister about the selection of the Dassault Rafale in India's MMRCA competition. What follows is the Defence Minister's response a couple of days later declaring that the points raised in the complaint will be investigated. Thanks to my friend Sandeep Unnithan for sharing these letters -- he reported on the complaint in the last edition of INDIA TODAY magazine.

Livefist: The Complaint Against Rafale & The Govt's Response

 

[arya]

yes let delay every thing and give some toys to our force to play

really is some one want to see god then come here because my country is run by god .

 

[ace009]

yes let delay every thing and give some toys to our force to play

really is some one want to see god then come here because my country is run by god .

Run by God? Or Morons? (For me I believe that God is a figment of the imagination of Morons.)

 

[Yusuf]

Serious doubts hanging on Rafale and allegation of irregularity. We are so screwed.

 

[Blackwater]

hahahah pakistan and china will be laughing now