Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes

Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes

Navy is in the process of expediting a trial report into operational demonstration by Rafale M of French firm Dassault Aviation and F/A 18 Super Hornet of American company Boeing.

theprint.in

 

[lcafanboy]

Definitely the best Afghan Weed is at work....

 

[MonaLazy]

All hail Uncle Sam?

F-18 Super Hornet managed to exceed Indian Navy's requirements for MRCBF program.

Spoiler: tweet

MRFA to Rafale and MRCBF to F-18? Bye bye commonality and common sense?

 

[space marine]

All hail Uncle Sam?

F-18 Super Hornet managed to exceed Indian Navy's requirements for MRCBF program.

Spoiler: tweet

MRFA to Rafale and MRCBF to F-18? Bye bye commonality and common sense?

Americans can offer weapon package that would be unmatched...
Fighter against fighter purely A2A ... Rafale would trump.
As an overall package specially for navy where India already employs P8I and other americal naval systems I suppose it will be better.

 

[BON PLAN]

F-18 Super Hornet managed to exceed Indian Navy's requirements for MRCBF program.

It doesn't mean Rafale don't do the same.

Except for weapon range, Rafale is better in all fields.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

All hail Uncle Sam?

F-18 Super Hornet managed to exceed Indian Navy's requirements for MRCBF program.

Spoiler: tweet

MRFA to Rafale and MRCBF to F-18? Bye bye commonality and common sense?

Rafale do not have a 2 seater. If ordering Rafale, 2 seaters can only remain in land based bases - Advantage F-18 SH

IN demanded that the jet should be able to take of with atleast 1 AshM with other AAMs and drop tanks in Stobar config. Rafale did it with 1 Exocet. F 18 did it with 2 Harpoons - Advantage F-18 SH

Harpoon has more range than Exocet - Advantage F-18 SH

More powerful Ge F414 compared to M88 - Advantage F-18 SH

Engine commonality with Navy's upcoming TEDBF. - Advantage F-18 SH

Better integration of American comms and datalink with P8-i, MH60 Romeo, other quad navies and all those alphabet soup data sharing and tracking agreements - Advantage F-18 SH.

So from Navy POV, it makes sense to go for F-18 SH

 

[MonaLazy]

Rafale do not have a 2 seater. If ordering Rafale, 2 seaters can only remain in land based bases - Advantage F-18 SH

NLCA Navy Trainers + simulators should be able to do training duties. It is a criminal waste to induct such a costly platform with reduced range of the two-seat variant.

IN demanded that the jet should be able to take of with atleast 1 AshM with other AAMs and drop tanks in Stobar config. Rafale did it with 1 Exocet. F 18 did it with 2 Harpoons - Advantage F-18 SH

Harpoon has more range than Exocet - Advantage F-18 SH

those are clear advantages

More powerful Ge F414 compared to M88 - Advantage F-18 SH

Engine commonality with Navy's upcoming TEDBF. - Advantage F-18 SH

TEDBF will rock the 12kN JV engine. F414 is only stop-gap. M88 is not underpowered, far from it. If you look at power/tonne it exceeds F414- while the F414 is ~4m, M88 is just ~3.5m. The power it produces within its small form factor is indeed impressive. (Small form = lower IR signature).

Better integration of American comms and datalink with P8-i, MH60 Romeo, other quad navies and all those alphabet soup data sharing and tracking agreements - Advantage F-18 SH.

So from Navy POV, it makes sense to go for F-18 SH

All those platforms would have been talking to Mig-29Ks presently so that should not be a challenge to inter-operate with Rafale M.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale do not have a 2 seater. If ordering Rafale, 2 seaters can only remain in land based bases - Advantage F-18 SH

IN demanded that the jet should be able to take of with atleast 1 AshM with other AAMs and drop tanks in Stobar config. Rafale did it with 1 Exocet. F 18 did it with 2 Harpoons - Advantage F-18 SH

Harpoon has more range than Exocet - Advantage F-18 SH

More powerful Ge F414 compared to M88 - Advantage F-18 SH

Engine commonality with Navy's upcoming TEDBF. - Advantage F-18 SH

Better integration of American comms and datalink with P8-i, MH60 Romeo, other quad navies and all those alphabet soup data sharing and tracking agreements - Advantage F-18 SH.

So from Navy POV, it makes sense to go for F-18 SH

2 seaters rafale M was studied but not purchased by french navy. Easy to made.

SH18 had not shown a STOBAR capacity with 2 Harpoons. And Rafale can carry Exocet under each wings.

Harpoon range > actual Exocet AM39 with powder engine. Maybe a derivative of the exocet block 3 with turbojet engine and > 180km range....

More powerfull F414 : Yes, but the bird is far too heavy for a smaller load. And M88 may also have more thrust (some unverified source said Qatar Rafale are powerd with 8,3 T M88 .....)

Engine communality : ??? commonality with IAF M88. And TEBDF engine is not choosen if I remember well.

Better integration? Maybe. But all platforms are NATO compatible.

And you forget a weapon not integrated on SH18 : Meteor.

 

[MirageBlue]

2 seaters rafale M was studied but not purchased by french navy. Easy to made.

SH18 had not shown a STOBAR capacity with 2 Harpoons. And Rafale can carry Exocet under each wings.

Harpoon range > actual Exocet AM39 with powder engine. Maybe a derivative of the exocet block 3 with turbojet engine and > 180km range....

More powerfull F414 : Yes, but the bird is far too heavy for a smaller load. And M88 may also have more thrust (some unverified source said Qatar Rafale are powerd with 8,3 T M88 .....)

Engine communality : ??? commonality with IAF M88. And TEBDF engine is not choosen if I remember well.

Better integration? Maybe. But all platforms are NATO compatible.

And you forget a weapon not integrated on SH18 : Meteor.

While my own vote would be for the Rafale M, let me put my points across:

- Harpoons are already part of the IAF and IN's stocks (bought for the Jaguar IM fleet, replacing obsolete Sea Eagle AShMs). So that would make it a little easier to use existing stocks of the Harpoon with some additional orders, since the MiG-29K's Kh-31A AShMs are incompatible with both Super Hornet or Rafale.
- F-414 is coming in a big way, thanks to the Tejas Mk2 (of which the IAF ACM just confirmed this morning a commitment of 6 squadrons). Plus the first 40 AMCA are likely to be powered by the F-414 as well as the prototypes and first batch of TEDBF if it has to enter service by 2035-2040. The new 110 kN JV engine will need a lot of trials before it will be on production fighters.
- So the F-414 commonality with the Super Hornet's engines is a plus, however it is offset by the fact that the M-88-3 is also in IAF service and a MRO is being set up by Safran that will likely also take on MRO activities for the M-88s.
- Regarding Datalink commonality between MH-60R ASW helicopters, P-8I and Super Hornet, does the IN use the US developed datalinks for the P-8I and MH-60R? As far as I recall, the P-8I had Indian developed datalink since there were export restrictions in place. Some other posters could confirm this.
- While the Meteor is truly a big incentive to go for the Rafale, the AIM-120D wouldn't be too bad for the IN either

But in the long run, a small orphan fleet of 26 Super Hornets doesn't make sense to me. Rafale Ms have the benefit of having the IAF's larger Rafale fleet to enable more efficient sustainment and MRO operations. Shared stocks of weapons for the IN and IAF's Rafales would also add to cost-effectiveness versus buying other weapons that would not be compatible with anything in the IAF.

 

[Marliii]

While my own vote would be for the Rafale M, let me put my points across:

- Harpoons are already part of the IAF and IN's stocks (bought for the Jaguar IM fleet, replacing obsolete Sea Eagle AShMs). So that would make it a little easier to use existing stocks of the Harpoon with some additional orders, since the MiG-29K's Kh-31A AShMs are incompatible with both Super Hornet or Rafale.
- F-414 is coming in a big way, thanks to the Tejas Mk2 (of which the IAF ACM just confirmed this morning a commitment of 6 squadrons). Plus the first 40 AMCA are likely to be powered by the F-414 as well as the prototypes and first batch of TEDBF if it has to enter service by 2035-2040. The new 110 kN JV engine will need a lot of trials before it will be on production fighters.
- So the F-414 commonality with the Super Hornet's engines is a plus, however it is offset by the fact that the M-88-3 is also in IAF service and a MRO is being set up by Safran that will likely also take on MRO activities for the M-88s.
- Regarding Datalink commonality between MH-60R ASW helicopters, P-8I and Super Hornet, does the IN use the US developed datalinks for the P-8I and MH-60R? As far as I recall, the P-8I had Indian developed datalink since there were export restrictions in place. Some other posters could confirm this.
- While the Meteor is truly a big incentive to go for the Rafale, the AIM-120D wouldn't be too bad for the IN either

But in the long run, a small orphan fleet of 26 Super Hornets doesn't make sense to me. Rafale Ms have the benefit of having the IAF's larger Rafale fleet to enable more efficient sustainment and MRO operations. Shared stocks of weapons for the IN and IAF's Rafales would also add to cost-effectiveness versus buying other weapons that would not be compatible with anything in the IAF.

Where would those Rafale m come from ? French already have their order books full and less than 50 Rafale m have been in service with the french navy so even second hand rafale m are difficult to get

 

[BON PLAN]

Where would those Rafale m come from ? French already have their order books full and less than 50 Rafale m have been in service with the french navy so even second hand rafale m are difficult to get

The commonality between Rafale M and B/C is huge !
The sole differences are : the main undercarriage, the integrated ladder, the reinforced arrested hook and, before, (now removed) an equipment to align the inertial guidance of the plane with those of the carrier.
That's all.

And between you and me, with the FCAS coming late, it is very likely that another Rafale M batch will be ordered, specially with such a huge futur french nuclear carrier.

 

[Trololo]

While my own vote would be for the Rafale M, let me put my points across:

- Harpoons are already part of the IAF and IN's stocks (bought for the Jaguar IM fleet, replacing obsolete Sea Eagle AShMs). So that would make it a little easier to use existing stocks of the Harpoon with some additional orders, since the MiG-29K's Kh-31A AShMs are incompatible with both Super Hornet or Rafale.
- F-414 is coming in a big way, thanks to the Tejas Mk2 (of which the IAF ACM just confirmed this morning a commitment of 6 squadrons). Plus the first 40 AMCA are likely to be powered by the F-414 as well as the prototypes and first batch of TEDBF if it has to enter service by 2035-2040. The new 110 kN JV engine will need a lot of trials before it will be on production fighters.
- So the F-414 commonality with the Super Hornet's engines is a plus, however it is offset by the fact that the M-88-3 is also in IAF service and a MRO is being set up by Safran that will likely also take on MRO activities for the M-88s.
- Regarding Datalink commonality between MH-60R ASW helicopters, P-8I and Super Hornet, does the IN use the US developed datalinks for the P-8I and MH-60R? As far as I recall, the P-8I had Indian developed datalink since there were export restrictions in place. Some other posters could confirm this.
- While the Meteor is truly a big incentive to go for the Rafale, the AIM-120D wouldn't be too bad for the IN either

But in the long run, a small orphan fleet of 26 Super Hornets doesn't make sense to me. Rafale Ms have the benefit of having the IAF's larger Rafale fleet to enable more efficient sustainment and MRO operations. Shared stocks of weapons for the IN and IAF's Rafales would also add to cost-effectiveness versus buying other weapons that would not be compatible with anything in the IAF.

Yes IIRC the P8 uses BEL's Datalink 2 system. There was a news report that said cabinets of the same were shipped to the US for final integration.

 

[MirageBlue]

Where would those Rafale m come from ? French already have their order books full and less than 50 Rafale m have been in service with the french navy so even second hand rafale m are difficult to get

That isn't the IN's headache, that's Dassault's headache. They will have to commit to delivering the first Rafale M 36 months after contract signature is done. How they do it would likely involve having to set up a new assembly line in France or elsewhere. I'm assuming that the existing assembly line can't be scaled up any further given the huge backlog that Dassault has with UAE, Greek, Indonesian and possibly Iraqi orders as well.

 

[Kumata]

Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes

Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes

Navy is in the process of expediting a trial report into operational demonstration by Rafale M of French firm Dassault Aviation and F/A 18 Super Hornet of American company Boeing.

theprint.in

It will be a strategic blunder if we choose to go with FA-18 . I am secretly hoping that this is not true.

It will be a logistic nightmare to maintain FA-18's and add to it the ever changing end user shit which prohibits usage in certain scenario, I am wondering why we are paying for them. I hope babu;s in Def min read thru the contract with a zoom lens. Historically US have never proved reliable to any of it's allies...

 

[WolfPack86]

114 Rafale Assembly By DRAL

 

[IndianHawk]

It will be a strategic blunder if we choose to go with FA-18 . I am secretly hoping that this is not true.

It will be a logistic nightmare to maintain FA-18's and add to it the ever changing end user shit which prohibits usage in certain scenario, I am wondering why we are paying for them. I hope babu;s in Def min read thru the contract with a zoom lens. Historically US have never proved reliable to any of it's allies...

F18 has same engine with lca mk2 and AMCA mk1. So with establishment of f414 mro maintenance will be easier.

F18 also allows us to feed from US reserve in case of war with China. US can transfer additional f18 in case of war with China France can't do that with rafale. Same with weapons . ( Look at Ukraine situation). US can supply weapons much faster than anybody else and many more.

Our f18 can take off from us carriers too and US f18 can fly camofloged as Indian f18.

Which is important in indo- Pacific theatre.

Not saying we should go for f18 but it has its merits specially for navy which needs to work in tandem with usa if we wish to keep IOR dangerous for China.

 

[Kumata]

F18 has same engine with lca mk2 and AMCA mk1. So with establishment of f414 mro maintenance will be easier.

F18 also allows us to feed from US reserve in case of war with China. US can transfer additional f18 in case of war with China France can't do that with rafale. Same with weapons . ( Look at Ukraine situation). US can supply weapons much faster than anybody else and many more.

Our f18 can take off from us carriers too and US f18 can fly camofloged as Indian f18.

Which is important in indo- Pacific theatre.

Not saying we should go for f18 but it has its merits specially for navy which needs to work in tandem with usa if we wish to keep IOR dangerous for China.

F-18 is more than a Engine IMO.

More over Kast thing u want is fighting a US war with China in true Ukrainian style... Let us fight our own wars rather than others.

 

[MonaLazy]

In terms of performance, it smokes the F-35 in every area. No FCAS but a Super Rafale? If FCAS does not work out what are the chances of selling AMCA to the French?

 

[BON PLAN]

In terms of performance, it smokes the F-35 in every area. No FCAS but a Super Rafale? If FCAS does not work out what are the chances of selling AMCA to the French?

FCAS is the "A" Plan of Dassault.
They already are working on a "B" plan..... maybe in a Rafale XL form, with new engines (those on developpment for the SCAF prototyp for exemple...), all the electronic suite studied for SCAF, or another improvement of the very potent weapon system of actual Rafale, and probably a bigger frame so as to accomodate at least air to air weapons in internal bays.

The link with India, in my opinion, is not France to purchase AMCA, but India and France working together to mix Rafale XL and AMCA, or maybe on some fields only as engines.

 

[binayak95]

It doesn't mean Rafale don't do the same.

Except for weapon range, Rafale is better in all fields.

Just the small detail that she doesnt fit in the elevator decks.

But this makes sense. F18s are proven, available en masse while the Rafale makes better sense for the IAF. Win win win.