Know Your 'Rafale'

[Flying Dagger]

I really don't understand what the guys who are incharge of the selection of aircrafts under MMRCA are doing, they should just simply select Rafale and end this tender. Rafale is the most obvious and logical choice in this tender, buying any other or even thinking about any plane other then Rafale is just "stupidity".

Just curious, since when are Americans ready to Integrate Indian weopons on their jets? Some time back I was watching a video by Alpha defence in which he said that US is/might be ready to allow the Integration of Astra BVR missiles on F/A-18 Super Hornets if they would be selected by the Indian Navy under the carrier based Fighter tender. Maybe you are referring to that? After that I did not hear much about that.

BROTHER! This is indeed true. WANT PROOF? SEE THIS
View attachment 177759

Yeah, now with this, India can act as a regional arms provider for nearby Rafale Operators who may want to have to such weopons be used from their own rafales. They will have the option to have buy Indian as well as other origin weopons for Rafales (european etc)

MRFA is just negotiation tactic... But I don't know if we should delay it much considering the dwindling air assets we have .

 

[Chinmoy]

Ok, so now what is your POINT?

If we go on and sign a deal for Rafale, it would be for F3R standard, which mean within coming 5 years, we would have to look into up-gradation program. The deal of Rafale would turn into that of Sukhoi even before the supply completes.

Waiting for a year in case of Rafale would give you an idea of what upgradation the next batch would offer and how relevant the new batch would be. Example the Super-Sukhoi program. The biggest roadblock in upgrade program was the engine.

So just ordering a follow on batch as of now is not going to solve our issue and infact is going to cost us more very soon. If the upgrades were to come a decade later, it would have make a sense to put on an order today. But the upgrades would start rolling off from this year itself. So it would be prude for us to wait a bit more in case of Rafale. For anything else, we could of-course go forward.

 

[Super Flanker]

MRFA is just negotiation tactic... But I don't know if we should delay it much considering the dwindling air assets we have .

MMRCA is indeed important and we need to complete this tender as soon as possible. We are facing severe shortage of the required number of squadrons so MMRCA is a must.

 

[Super Flanker]

we go on and sign a deal for Rafale, it would be for F3R standard, which mean within coming 5 years, we would have to look into up-gradation program. The deal of Rafale would turn into that of Sukhoi even before the supply completes.

If we order additional Rafales after the 36 which we had already ordered previously then the Rafales which we will be ordering would of F4 standards. I don't know when the decision would come for a Hypothetical "additional Rafale deal" but It is definitely not happening this year but when it happens, F4 standard variants of Rafale would have already Become available on the market.

It makes no sense that if we order additional Rafales now then we will opt for F3R standard ones, because by that time there will be more advanced ones available on market, not saying that F3R is going to become like obsolete but I am saying that it will make more sense to go for F4 standard ones.

Waiting for a year in case of Rafale would give you an idea of what upgradation the next batch would offer and how relevant the new batch would be. Example the Super-Sukhoi program. The biggest roadblock in upgrade program was the engine.

I don't understand what you are trying to imply here? And why are you bringing super Sukhoi Upgrade in the conversation here? And any Upgrade will ofcource enhance the Technological aspect of a plane thereby making it more relevant and therefore it will stay in service for longer.

So just ordering a follow on batch as of now is not going to solve our issue and infact is going to cost us more very soon. If the upgrades were to come a decade later, it would have make a sense to put on an order today. But the upgrades would start rolling off from this year itself. So it would be prude for us to wait a bit more in case of Rafale. For anything else, we could of-course go forward.

Did not get you here. Yes if we order additional Rafales and they were to be of F3R standards (even though it would make more sense to go for F4 standards) like the ones which we had previously ordered then it would be cheaper whereas F4 standards would have been more expensive (a bit more). I guess that is what you are trying to say here? PEACE OUT.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think this is effect of the competition, especially since Americans are ready to integrate Indian weapons on their jets.
French must be getting wary.

No.
Astra integration was on the agenda from the beginning.
Next step is Brahmos mini.

And about the Americans suddelnly becoming ready to integrate foreign weapons, it's a wet dream : even very close ally face difficulty to do so : EUropean NATO ally Meteor integration on F35 is all time push back... probably the time to have the AIM260 ready so as to say "meteor is no more usefull because we have our own death star..." )

 

[BON PLAN]

Very good. Now read this.



https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/group/press/press-kits/rafale-f4-standard-launched/

All F3R made from the origin at this standard (ie not Egypt first batch ones and old french ones) car directly gu to F4.2. It is the indian case.
The older will be cost effective be limited to F4.1 (all is possible, specially in France, but the cost of overhaul is too high)

 

[Love Charger]

No.
Astra integration was on the agenda from the beginning.
Next step is Brahmos mini.

And about the Americans suddelnly becoming ready to integrate foreign weapons, it's a wet dream : even very close ally face difficulty to do so : EUropean NATO ally Meteor integration on F35 is all time push back... probably the time to have the AIM260 ready so as to say "meteor is no more usefull because we have our own death star..." )

I understand

 

[Flying Dagger]

If we go on and sign a deal for Rafale, it would be for F3R standard, which mean within coming 5 years, we would have to look into up-gradation program. The deal of Rafale would turn into that of Sukhoi even before the supply completes.

Waiting for a year in case of Rafale would give you an idea of what upgradation the next batch would offer and how relevant the new batch would be. Example the Super-Sukhoi program. The biggest roadblock in upgrade program was the engine.

So just ordering a follow on batch as of now is not going to solve our issue and infact is going to cost us more very soon. If the upgrades were to come a decade later, it would have make a sense to put on an order today. But the upgrades would start rolling off from this year itself. So it would be prude for us to wait a bit more in case of Rafale. For anything else, we could of-course go forward.

You do understand that would mean a new deal to negotiate and more time will be taken for that. While a follow on order will be easier but then again who knows how the top guns will play this rematch.

 

[Chinmoy]

All F3R made from the origin at this standard (ie not Egypt first batch ones and old french ones) car directly gu to F4.2. It is the indian case.

It can directly go to F4.2, but would it be free of cost?

 

[Chinmoy]

You do understand that would mean a new deal to negotiate and more time will be taken for that. While a follow on order will be easier but then again who knows how the top guns will play this rematch.

What new deal? MRFA deal is not even out.

On other hand, if we sign a Rafale deal for F3R standard today, those who are vying for the deal would start abusing IAF and bureaucrats 10 years down the line when AMCA project would suffer for funds, which would be routed to Rafale upgrade.
Chalega?????

 

[BON PLAN]

It can directly go to F4.2, but would it be free of cost?

Sure not, because there is a software part and more costly a hardware part.

 

[BON PLAN]

What new deal? MRFA deal is not even out.

On other hand, if we sign a Rafale deal for F3R standard today, those who are vying for the deal would start abusing IAF and bureaucrats 10 years down the line when AMCA project would suffer for funds, which would be routed to Rafale upgrade.
Chalega?????

An upgrade is not fully necessary : a customer may decide to let its fleet staying at F3R.
India already has the best F3R possible, with some improvments not seiing on another Rafale (low band electronic countermeasures, towed array...)

 

[Chinmoy]

An upgrade is not fully necessary : a customer may decide to let its fleet staying at F3R.
India already has the best F3R possible, with some improvments not seiing on another Rafale (low band electronic countermeasures, towed array...)

Yes. A customer decides whether he wants an upgraded one or not. For that he have to first look into the flying upgrade instead of what is offered on paper. So let the upgrade version fly first to decide whether IAF wants to go along with F3R or want F4 standard as next batch.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes. A customer decides whether he wants an upgraded one or not. For that he have to first look into the flying upgrade instead of what is offered on paper. So let the upgrade version fly first to decide whether IAF wants to go along with F3R or want F4 standard as next batch.

Customer is king !

 

[Flying Dagger]

What new deal? MRFA deal is not even out.

On other hand, if we sign a Rafale deal for F3R standard today, those who are vying for the deal would start abusing IAF and bureaucrats 10 years down the line when AMCA project would suffer for funds, which would be routed to Rafale upgrade.
Chalega?????

Funds will always be an issue for this reason or that. Rafale maintenance will be expensive too which is the same case with Mirage 2k. But we will keep a small batch of them.

Our Rafale are already F4 ready which is discussed ample times in the forum. They already outclass anything our enemy have and other add ons can be added later.

 

[Chinmoy]

Funds will always be an issue for this reason or that. Rafale maintenance will be expensive too which is the same case with Mirage 2k. But we will keep a small batch of them.

Our Rafale are already F4 ready which is discussed ample times in the forum. They already outclass anything our enemy have and other add ons can be added later.

When you go for an order, be it indigenous or import, you do always draw out a financial plan according to it. So when a batch of 36 Rafales were ordered, already a plan for it has been put in place which includes its future upgrades too. But during the deal, no follow on option has been put into place. So saying that it would be on same financial term is basically a wrong assumption.

Being F4 ready and upgrading to F4 standards are two different things. As @BON PLAN already mentioned, these upgrades are not coming in for free. If we order a follow on batch of 36 F3R standard Rafale today, do the math for upgrade of 72 Rafale. It would obviously be higher then 36 of now.

 

[Flying Dagger]

When you go for an order, be it indigenous or import, you do always draw out a financial plan according to it. So when a batch of 36 Rafales were ordered, already a plan for it has been put in place which includes its future upgrades too. But during the deal, no follow on option has been put into place. So saying that it would be on same financial term is basically a wrong assumption.

Being F4 ready and upgrading to F4 standards are two different things. As @BON PLAN already mentioned, these upgrades are not coming in for free. If we order a follow on batch of 36 F3R standard Rafale today, do the math for upgrade of 72 Rafale. It would obviously be higher then 36 of now.

There was a follow on order plan with same rate... Offcourse inflation will be added on but the sunk cost which we have already paid will benefit the end price.

 

[Chinmoy]

There was a follow on order plan with same rate... Offcourse inflation will be added on but the sunk cost which we have already paid will benefit the end price.

Plan is of many things. Lets talk about the ground situation. When ordering 36 jets, no provision for follow on order has been kept.

 

[Sachinananda]

Plan is of many things. Lets talk about the ground situation. When ordering 36 jets, no provision for follow on order has been kept.

But many reports were emerged that follow on order provision exists in contract

 

[Chinmoy]

But many reports were emerged that follow on order provision exists in contract

“Using the same aircraft is a real asset and strength. I am sure that there is room for new developments. We are ready to answer any additional needs of request that could be made by India," she said.

These are words of French defence minister Florence Parley during the 33rd jet reception ceremony.

https://www.livemint.com/news/world...-to-india-french-minister-11639748837340.html

However, the final deal for 36 fighter jets was struck without even a follow on clause to purchase a similar number in the future (if required) at similar prices.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...d-questions/articleshow/65495707.cms?from=mdr

Read this on follow up order. No such clause exists.