Know Your 'Rafale'

[MirageBlue]

It seems that some great reorganisation news are coming concerning Dassault. A part of these news involved DRAL.

Is there any French news report on this topic?

 

[BON PLAN]

It hasn't been disqualified. The only reason may be that the IN's RFI requested that the 26 fighters be split 18/8 between single/twin seaters. Rafale M is only available as a single seater, so the twin seaters will necessarily be based on land. As per Ajai Shukla's recent article, IN is not going to disqualify Dassault on this basis as it would create a single vendor situation which is not at all a good idea for competitive pricing.

OK.
Note that the "N" variant (dual seat M) was studied for french navy, but never ordered because french navy say a single seater is able to make all the navy missions and because the dual seater have a reduced fuel capacity.
But it's not a problem to built a N model. Just more price and more delay.

And, between you and me, there isn't dual seater for F22 and more important for F35...

 

[MirageBlue]

OK.
Note that the "N" variant (dual seat M) was studied for french navy, but never ordered because french navy say a single seater is able to make all the navy missions and because the dual seater have a reduced fuel capacity.
But it's not a problem to built a N model. Just more price and more delay.

And, between you and me, there isn't dual seater for F22 and more important for F35...

I think it was more of a cost savings thing that anything else. One less type which makes sense when you consider how few twin seaters the French Navy would've needed; it may not have made sense to develop a twin seater Rafale M from the Rafale B.

But TBH, a twin seater naval fighter is a good thing to have. Carrier landings are not easy even for regular pilots, leave aside rookies. I like the MiG-29KUB in that respect, with the unified design for single and twin seaters, but with 1 fuel tank missing in the twin seater.

Not sure how the French Navy is training it's pilots who need to be qualified for carrier landings. IN has a shore based facility (SBTF) but it cannot mimic all the things a pilot experiences on a carrier, such as a cluttered deck and rolling ship.

IN may have plans to buy 8-10 LCA Navy Mk1 twin seat trainers which are carrier capable. They could be used for training new rookies in getting carrier qualified. Twin seat Rafales would be then used in a shore-based role to train new pilots. But without the ability to embark on a aircraft carrier, the IN will have 8 fewer Rafales to use on board INS Vikrant, which is a distinct disadvantage. Given how some of the single seaters could be in overhaul/maintenance, the IN may not be able to put even 18 Rafale single seaters on the INS Vikrant each time it embarks.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not sure how the French Navy is training it's pilots who need to be qualified for carrier landings. IN has a shore based facility (SBTF) but it cannot mimic all the things a pilot experiences on a carrier, such as a cluttered deck and rolling ship.

The french newby navy pilots are now from several years trained and skilled in US Navy (T45).
After that, they just have to maintain their flight habilitation every x months by a Charles de Gaulle embarkment.

 

[MirageBlue]

The french newby navy pilots are now from several years trained and skilled in US Navy (T45).
After that, they just have to maintain their flight habilitation every x months by a Charles de Gaulle embarkment.

So there you go. They need a Goshawk to train on carrier landings before they can fly a single seater Rafale M. the IN doesn't send it's carrier pilots to the US anymore (there was a batch sent to Kingsville when the MiG-29K was being acquired). And it is not an ideal situation anyway.

the LCA Navy Mk1 offers the IN a supersonic trainer that can land on it's STOBAR carriers and train pilots in the art of carrier landing.

 

[BON PLAN]

So there you go. They need a Goshawk to train on carrier landings before they can fly a single seater Rafale M. the IN doesn't send it's carrier pilots to the US anymore (there was a batch sent to Kingsville when the MiG-29K was being acquired). And it is not an ideal situation anyway.

the LCA Navy Mk1 offers the IN a supersonic trainer that can land on it's STOBAR carriers and train pilots in the art of carrier landing.

You have a shore base STOBAR "ground carrier" for training.
We, in France, don't have a CATOBAR "ground carrier" to to so.

But it's in fact a real problem, I agree.

 

[BON PLAN]

Accident in France during a meeting :
One Rafale loose its spectra buble on top of the vertical fin, the other has a canard folded and a wing damaged.
All return safe to the runaway. Thank you FBW.

 

[Immanuel]

That is because the center display which is so close to the pilot is collimated (Focused) to infinity, so the pilot doesn't have to refocus his vision each time he looks at it after looking down at other displays. As per Peter Collins who wrote an excellent article on his test flight of a Rafale, it made it very easy to look at the Head Level Display and then look away at Head Down Displays and then back and all without having to refocus his vision. It is another superb French solution.

Except, if the pilot farts, he's more likely to gag himself into disorientation being up so close.

I hope the Indian pilots stay clear from Chole and Rajma before combat flights

 

[MirageBlue]

You have a shore base STOBAR "ground carrier" for training.
We, in France, don't have a CATOBAR "ground carrier" to to so.

But it's in fact a real problem, I agree.

There is the STOBAR INS Vikramaditya as well, in addition to the Shore Based Test Facility at INS Hansa in Dabolim, Goa. So if Rafales are selected, the twin seaters would be based there and used for training. But if the IN does the right thing and orders 8-10 LCA Navy Mk1 trainers, it will have the ability to train it's pilots on both INS Vikramaditya as well as INS Vikrant.

 

[akk]

Anybody knows about the status of 36th rafale? It was meant to arrive by now. It was meant to have India specific enhancement. No update since February.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Immanuel]

There is the STOBAR INS Vikramaditya as well, in addition to the Shore Based Test Facility at INS Hansa in Dabolim, Goa. So if Rafales are selected, the twin seaters would be based there and used for training. But if the IN does the right thing and orders 8-10 LCA Navy Mk1 trainers, it will have the ability to train it's pilots on both INS Vikramaditya as well as INS Vikrant.

There is no replacement for final leg of training on high seas with a carrier moving at to speed, be it during day or pitch dark at night in adverse conditions. Not having a twin seat version, not folding wings, older gen cockpit etc are a big disadvantage for the Rafale. Shiny new Block3 with latest updates in wide cockpit, new gen mission computer, updated AESA, a wider set of weapons readily deployable from get go are the SH's big advantage. Also commonality with Tejas mk-2 engine.

 

[MirageBlue]

There is no replacement for final leg of training on high seas with a carrier moving at to speed, be it during day or pitch dark at night in adverse conditions. Not having a twin seat version, not folding wings, older gen cockpit etc are a big disadvantage for the Rafale. Shiny new Block3 with latest updates in wide cockpit, new gen mission computer, updated AESA, a wider set of weapons readily deployable from get go are the SH's big advantage. Also commonality with Tejas mk-2 engine.

All of which pale in comparison to the threat of sanctions grounding the fleet in one fell swoop. Never happened with the French as far as India is concerned.

Regarding the AESA, yes the APG-79 is a great kit, but the RBE-2 on the Rafale M is also considered to be a superb radar. Add the Meteor, the MICA EM/IR and the commonality between the sets of weapons already bought for the IAF and you have a compelling case for the Rafale M. Especially since the Rafale fleet is very unlikely to remain at just 36 units. Commonality of infra for maintenance of the fleet will also be there with IAF Rafales.

As far as the cockpit goes, WAD is great for the Super Hornet, but not a deal breaker as far as Rafale goes. And it is no coincidence that ALL the next generation fighters from Tejas Mk2 to TEDBF to AMCA will feature side-stick controller rather than the center stick as seen on Tejas Mk1/Mk1A and Super Hornet. It is all thanks to the feedback from IAF pilots who have flown the Rafale and it's simulator and felt the improvement versus the center stick.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Accident in France during a meeting :
One Rafale loose its spectra buble on top of the vertical fin, the other has a canard folded and a wing damaged.
All return safe to the runaway. Thank you FBW.

Whoa! That was hell of a collison. Pilots must have loved the kick.
Composite body much better than metal body.
I wish if a closeup pic of DDM was available.

 

[BON PLAN]

Film Delivery Rafale India

 

[WolfPack86]

83 Rafale Combined Order,FICV Pvt Partner,

 

[WolfPack86]

,Rafale Assembly MRFA

 

[Wisemarko]

There is no replacement for final leg of training on high seas with a carrier moving at to speed, be it during day or pitch dark at night in adverse conditions.

Absolutely correct. French pilots train in Mississippi with US Navy for their carrier qualifying flights since Rafale-M is single seater only.

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault offers Rafale manufacturing in its DRAL Plant in India if given MRFA 114 jets order
The French company Dassault will complete setting up its Rafale fighter aircraft servicing center at its upcoming facility at the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) at the Mihan SEZ in Nagpur by end of 2022 or early 2023. New Facility will cater to Indian Air Force and also to the South-Asian customers in near future but the grounds are being prepared that could lead to the assembly of Rafale jets in India to meet export demands as the backlog of orders pile up after recent orders from UAE and Indonesia.

Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV in DRAL but Dassault is planning to seek 100 percent ownership of DRAL before it can start plans to assemble Rafale jets in India. DRAL will be able to assemble two Rafale jets per month and 24 in a year that will match the present production capability in France. Most of the jets will come in the CKD (Completely Knocked Down) forms only to be assembled in India.

Dassault is already sourcing Rafale engine doors and pylons from India as part of its global supply chain for its Global Customers and more components will also be manufactured in India. Dassault already has offered to assemble the second batch of Rafale if ordered by India in the DRAL facility and also is ready to cater to MRFA Tender requirement for 114 jets which involve deeper Transfer of Technology (ToT) come into play with more sourcing being done locally.

While Assembly of Rafale in India is still at the consideration stage, French company Dassault off late has been sealing multiple deals for the supply of Rafale jets with many countries, and the DRAL facility in India will play a crucial role as part of its global supply chain and later also in the upgradation and service of these jets.

India's Growing Military Power

India's growing Military power - IgMp, is an Indian Defence News website that covers news of Indian Defence, National Security, Global Defence and Geopolitics. Your first choice for Indian Defence News Your First choice for Indian Defence News and updates.

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[radion]

Dassault offers Rafale manufacturing in its DRAL Plant in India if given MRFA 114 jets order
The French company Dassault will complete setting up its Rafale fighter aircraft servicing center at its upcoming facility at the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) at the Mihan SEZ in Nagpur by end of 2022 or early 2023. New Facility will cater to Indian Air Force and also to the South-Asian customers in near future but the grounds are being prepared that could lead to the assembly of Rafale jets in India to meet export demands as the backlog of orders pile up after recent orders from UAE and Indonesia.

Reliance Infrastructure is the majority shareholder in the 51:49 JV in DRAL but Dassault is planning to seek 100 percent ownership of DRAL before it can start plans to assemble Rafale jets in India. DRAL will be able to assemble two Rafale jets per month and 24 in a year that will match the present production capability in France. Most of the jets will come in the CKD (Completely Knocked Down) forms only to be assembled in India.

Dassault is already sourcing Rafale engine doors and pylons from India as part of its global supply chain for its Global Customers and more components will also be manufactured in India. Dassault already has offered to assemble the second batch of Rafale if ordered by India in the DRAL facility and also is ready to cater to MRFA Tender requirement for 114 jets which involve deeper Transfer of Technology (ToT) come into play with more sourcing being done locally.

While Assembly of Rafale in India is still at the consideration stage, French company Dassault off late has been sealing multiple deals for the supply of Rafale jets with many countries, and the DRAL facility in India will play a crucial role as part of its global supply chain and later also in the upgradation and service of these jets.

India's Growing Military Power

India's growing Military power - IgMp, is an Indian Defence News website that covers news of Indian Defence, National Security, Global Defence and Geopolitics. Your first choice for Indian Defence News Your First choice for Indian Defence News and updates.

www.theigmp.org

wtf they want full ownership of the Indian plant

 

[Wisemarko]

Most of the jets will come in the CKD (Completely Knocked Down) forms only to be assembled in India.

It is more appropriate to call it a local "assembly" and not "manufacturing". Without local partner or sourcing not much can be learned from such proposition.