Know Your 'Rafale'

[Covfefe]

It's was the contrary announced. And, because they reduce the overall number, could choose just to purchase one type.

What's the total estimated number for each Rafale and F15?

 

[asianobserve]

And on top of that Indonesia will also buy Korean KFX.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Indonesia has a convoluted mix of fighters... it's a logistical nightmare.

Indonesia has a convoluted mix of fighters... it's a logistical nightmare.

What about the IAF? We probably have more mix of aircraft and will be adding even more in the next few years. Why can't we just have one type of each? Light, medium and heavy.

 

[IndianHawk]

What about the IAF? We probably have more mix of aircraft and will be adding even more in the next few years. Why can't we just have one type of each? Light, medium and heavy.

We are moving in that direction. MWF is supposed to replace jaguars mirage and mig29. So we will have only 4 types
Su30mki heavy , Rafale and MWF medium and lca mk1a light.

After that AMCA will start replacing su30mki gradually.

 

[BON PLAN]

What's the total estimated number for each Rafale and F15?

It was said 36 Rafale and 8 F15.... it was so strange.
Now the deal seems more for 12 to 16 of one type to be choosen.

 

[Covfefe]

It was said 36 Rafale and 8 F15.... it was so strange.
Now the deal seems more for 12 to 16 of one type to be choosen.

Weird, there's nothing that F15 EX offers that Rafale can't do. Also, at such small numbers the cost difference between the two won't matter much

 

[Super Flanker]

The most worry some development is happening in USA, AIM260 development. If AIM260 happened to reach in PAF hands....

Bruh? Seriously? You really think that Americans are so dumb that they will just Handover AIM-260 to Pakistan Airforce? What Bullshit is that! America Knows very well that if they give such Missiles to Pakistan than Pakistan will give this missile to their Iron brother China for some Reverse Engineering, so US is not doing something like that.
•
Americans know that if they give a Missile like AIM-260 than eventually it will fall into the hands of the Chinese.
•
Likewise The same thing might have been done with the AMRAAM AIM-1205C Which PAF operates, I do believe that they might have allowed the Chinese to reverse Engineer them.

 

[Fonck83]

If the 8th customer was ... Turkey :

Turkey Needs To Follow UAE’s Lead And Acquire A 4.5-Generation Stopgap Fighter

The United Arab Emirates' landmark deal to procure 80 cutting-edge Dassault Rafale multirole fighter jets from France gives the Emirati Air Force a highly formidable interim solution until it finally takes delivery of the F-35 Lightning II or another fifth-generation fighter.

www.forbes.com

 

[Love Charger]

If the 8th customer was ... Turkey :

Turkey Needs To Follow UAE’s Lead And Acquire A 4.5-Generation Stopgap Fighter

The United Arab Emirates' landmark deal to procure 80 cutting-edge Dassault Rafale multirole fighter jets from France gives the Emirati Air Force a highly formidable interim solution until it finally takes delivery of the F-35 Lightning II or another fifth-generation fighter.

www.forbes.com

Kek

 

[MirageBlue]

We are moving in that direction. MWF is supposed to replace jaguars mirage and mig29. So we will have only 4 types
Su30mki heavy , Rafale and MWF medium and lca mk1a light.

After that AMCA will start replacing su30mki gradually.

If the IAF is pragmatic and if the MoD is convincing enough, we may see the ORCA slot in as well to complement the Rafale. But for that to happen, the IAF has to get those Rafales it wants, otherwise it just won't accept ORCA. It'll just keep creating MRFA RFPs and AoNs till 2040.

The concern about the TEDBF remains it's small production size. For 3 carriers and a possible future Andaman and Nicobar basing, the IN may want upto 4-5 squadrons of TEDBF, but that is just ~70-80 units. IMO, far too few which will result in high unit costs as the cost of development, jigs/fixtures, tooling, new assembly line, etc. will have to be borne by the IN alone. Even with commonality factored in, the TEDBF will still cost quite a significant amount.

IMHO, the GoI has to intervene and get some sense driven into the IAF leadership, which has an opportunity to shape it's own indigenous Rafale class fighter with the ORCA.

 

[IndianHawk]

If the IAF is pragmatic and if the MoD is convincing enough, we may see the ORCA slot in as well to complement the Rafale. But for that to happen, the IAF has to get those Rafales it wants, otherwise it just won't accept ORCA. It'll just keep creating MRFA RFPs and AoNs till 2040.

The concern about the TEDBF remains it's small production size. For 3 carriers and a possible future Andaman and Nicobar basing, the IN may want upto 4-5 squadrons of TEDBF, but that is just ~70-80 units. IMO, far too few which will result in high unit costs as the cost of development, jigs/fixtures, tooling, new assembly line, etc. will have to be borne by the IN alone. Even with commonality factored in, the TEDBF will still cost quite a significant amount.

IMHO, the GoI has to intervene and get some sense driven into the IAF leadership, which has an opportunity to shape it's own indigenous Rafale class fighter with the ORCA.

For navy the issue of cost comes to Rafale aquisition cost vs tedbf development and procurement cost.

Rafale m is even more costlier than Rafale air. It would easily cost over 16-18 billion usd for 57 naval Rafale. ( 36 air cost us 9 billion usd).

So if tedbf program costs less than that then even for just 60 jets it is worth in on it's own then orca is added benefit.

Even if tedbf development costs 3-4 billion usd ( given common components with MWF and amca and su30 upgrade already developed like aesa, irst , dcmaws , obogs etc.) And each tedbf costs 100 million usd so 60 will cost only 6 billion to procure .

Add weaponry and bases infrastructure at another 3 billion usd and you end up with total program cost of just 12-13 Billion usd all the while building indeginous capacity and having greater control on program than Rafale could ever give .

Beside tedbf will be far more powerful than Rafale and could be lower rcs with semi recessed pylon on centre and shaped front.

Also naval jet number will grow with time . By 2035 we might saction another carrier or two to be build in 2040s as we will be 10-15 trillion economy between 2030-35 already and 20trillion + economy beyond 2040 and might require a more advanced version of tedbf for those needs .

 

[bubzy]

Rafale m is even more costlier than Rafale air. It would easily cost over 16-18 billion usd for 57 naval Rafale. ( 36 air cost us 9 billion usd).

No. 36 rafale Air did not cost 9 billion usd to IAF. But 36 rafale + Indian specific enhancement to develop + setup of two air bases + weapons + transfer of technology, etc.

So in that calculation, if a rafale M is costlier TO PRODUCE on a 10% basis rather than the Air version, the deal for navy should be lower for naval version, except if Indian navy want a specific development like (randomly) dual site naval plane.

Never take the total amount of a contract to estimate the cost of an aircraft. Bad idea.

 

[SARTHAK]

Bruh? Seriously? You really think that Americans are so dumb that they will just Handover AIM-260 to Pakistan Airforce? What Bullshit is that! America Knows very well that if they give such Missiles to Pakistan than Pakistan will give this missile to their Iron brother China for some Reverse Engineering, so US is not doing something like that.
•
Americans know that if they give a Missile like AIM-260 than eventually it will fall into the hands of the Chinese.
•
Likewise The same thing might have been done with the AMRAAM AIM-1205C Which PAF operates, I do believe that they might have allowed the Chinese to reverse Engineer them.

btw USA is ex-father of PAKISTAN ,current one is CHINA

 

[Super Flanker]

btw USA is ex-father of PAKISTAN ,current one is CHINA

Does it matter whether US is ex father of Pakistan? In terms of current Scenario , there is no way that Pakistan will get access to AIM-260. But to be fair, the Americans are always known to play two sides of a card so you never know what these People might be doing from behind our backs.

 

[SARTHAK]

Does it matter whether US is ex father of Pakistan? In terms of current Scenario , there is no way that Pakistan will get access to AIM-260. But to be fair, the Americans are always known to play two sides of a card so you never know what these People might be doing from behind our backs.

no they will not becoz they are now EX , china will not like their new child Pakistan to fall into its EX father's hands again

 

[BON PLAN]

Weird, there's nothing that F15 EX offers that Rafale can't do. Also, at such small numbers the cost difference between the two won't matter much

F15EX has probably a better range and better load, because far more bigger. But as all the US fighters, it is delivered with a strong link to USA foreign policy... So it's better to have a full free bird from Dassault.

 

[Super Flanker]

no they will not becoz they are now EX , china will not like their new child Pakistan to fall into its EX father's hands again

China will not want their pet dog Pakistan to be buying things from their Previous Abbu aka America who is the Enemy of China. Rather they will want to imran Khan to do 'Woof woof' and buy things like J-10 ,Pl series Missiles, and other things etc.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale m is even more costlier than Rafale air. It would easily cost over 16-18 billion usd for 57 naval Rafale. ( 36 air cost us 9 billion usd).

Rafale M is only a couple of million costier than Rafale C.
The first deal, for 36, included 2 air bases accomodation, the training, the developpement of some indian specifications, multiyear support for a 75% disponibility, weapons..... The real dry price of Rafale is in the 80€ million (without VAT as all exported goods).

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Rafale decimates every other fighter in IAF inventory in a simulated warfare conducted by TACDE and DACT - Wolfpack tweet

 

[IndianHawk]

No. 36 rafale Air did not cost 9 billion usd to IAF. But 36 rafale + Indian specific enhancement to develop + setup of two air bases + weapons + transfer of technology, etc.

So in that calculation, if a rafale M is costlier TO PRODUCE on a 10% basis rather than the Air version, the deal for navy should be lower for naval version, except if Indian navy want a specific development like (randomly) dual site naval plane.

Never take the total amount of a contract to estimate the cost of an aircraft. Bad idea.

Naval Rafale would also require new ground base plus all the infrastructure on ground as well as in aircraft carriers hangers to maintain them. They will too need all the weapon including many more anti ship missiles so weapons cost will further increase. TOT clause will remain since offset is a requirement for all such tenders.

The only saving could be india specific investment but then again Rafale M is more costly than air version. So all in all it will be more costly.