Know Your 'Rafale'

IndianHawk

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After realising that the Russian's did not have (mature) 5th generation technology, we should have tried to get the only other game in town i.e. F-35 from the Americans as a stop gap until we developed our own. Instead we got barely 2 Sq of a 4.5 generation fighter while closing the door on the 5th gen alternative. Folks are high now but in 5-10 years the situation will degrade beyond the threshold of delusion induces by copium.
If Russian don't have mature 5th gen technologies how do you know chinese have it?? When chinese are themselves dependent on russian for engine and frontline fighters su35??

And did usa was even ready to sell F35 to india?? Is f35 a mature 5th gen fighter ?? Has it attained all operational clearances??

First find answers to all these questions. You will begin to understand somethings.
 

Kalkioftoday

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If Russian don't have mature 5th gen technologies how do you know chinese have it?? When chinese are themselves dependent on russian for engine and frontline fighters su35??

And did usa was even ready to sell F35 to india?? Is f35 a mature 5th gen fighter ?? Has it attained all operational clearances??

First find answers to all these questions. You will begin to understand somethings.
It's a flawed logic that if the russians don't have it than it mean chinese can't have too. Russia military R&D budget is piss poor compared to the USSR but china's R&D spending is huge coupled with spending in the civilian sector, they are huge compared to the russians. Just look at their drone development, after the americans it's the chinese who are pioneered in military drones. And the information regarding china dependent on russia for engine is so wrong cuz none of the newer J10c have any russian engine, it's all chinese. Even their new J16s and J20s all have chinese engine. Russia isn't among the front runner anymore, they are out and replaced by the chinese. Don't underestimate the enemy please it's the most self harming thing to do.
 

IndianHawk

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It's a flawed logic that if the russians don't have it than it mean chinese can't have too. Russia military R&D budget is piss poor compared to the USSR but china's R&D spending is huge coupled with spending in the civilian sector, they are huge compared to the russians. Just look at their drone development, after the americans it's the chinese who are pioneered in military drones. And the information regarding china dependent on russia for engine is so wrong cuz none of the newer J10c have any russian engine, it's all chinese. Even their new J16s and J20s all have chinese engine. Russia isn't among the front runner anymore, they are out and replaced by the chinese. Don't underestimate the enemy please it's the most self harming thing to do.
🤣 All these chinese engines are reverse engineered russian engine till date! Jf17 sold to Pak with Russian engine because chinese couldn't develope a engine for that small and basic plane which doesn't fall apart every week.

About there drones which ones are we talking about once grounded by middle eastern countries or the once breaking new crash records.

I'm all for not underestimating china but I'm also for not overestimating them.

Chinese will develop better tech soon and may become significant threat in future but right now they don't cut the Mustard.
 

MonaLazy

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why mkis are not getting new stealth paint ??:notsure::notsure:
Why is RAM paint so important? It peels off in spots after every sortie necessitating a touch up and adds to IAFs maintenance costs x272. There are several means for signature reduction - some offer more bang for lesser rupees and would have been incorporated.


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grounded by middle eastern countries or the once breaking new crash records.
Atleast they got their kamikaze drone tech right. & Since they crash at will even the AI tech is right up there.
 

Super Flanker

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They mostly hide their crash,the one which comes to public are the ones which get attention by the locals ...
Pakistan is known to hide Aircraft Crashes and wreakages in their country.

I myself had been to Quora and was going through the comment section of an answer on Quora on JF 17 Crashes and there was a Pakistani who had written a comment there where he accepted that most of the crashes in Pakistan are underreported.

Anyways the crashes which happen near populated civilian areas are the ones which are Reported most probably.

But the ones which crash in remote areas like forests etc are the ones which are hidden by Pakistan.

Anyways this is possible when you have all the elements of Society under the control of the military. No wonder this people are hiding their Aircraft crashes.
 

bubzy

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Rafale can't save our ass against J20s only AMCA can.
Seriously, on which facts or data do you rely on to telling to every one this kind of peremptory affirmation ?

What do you know about Rafale ?
What do you know about J20 ?
What do you know about tactics, pilot training, experience in case of any confrontation between the two countries ?

Let me gess... nothing.

Lets continue. How do you know that Amca wil solve this "problem" ?

If we can compare some of the fighter aircrafts values all over the wolrd due to some past confrontation in recent exercices and with comparative rules of engagmen (Rafale vs Mirage vs F16-15-22-35 vs Typhoon vs whatever...), you cannot really compare with chineese made products. Why ? Because there are no existing data.

More than that, China have a really huge army, but we don't know how it could react face of occidental or russian army which have, unfortunately, a very long experience about war.

This experience as we call retex in France (return of experience) is a game changing because based on this experience the tools to make war are really differents from the initial designs.

Rafale have systems that evolve permanently and continuously. The Rafale that enter into service in 2006 have nothing in common in term of capacity with the ones India have received (F3R) and the one you should upgrade in some years with F4 and F5 for which development have already started.

From what I know, there is no any other plane in the world that use virtualisation and modularity as main phylosophy design of the plain. Consequence, except for the airframe, all the systems evolve continuously.

So, even if you affirmation is true today (what nobody could know now), it will be not true for tomorow.
 

bubzy

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If Russian don't have mature 5th gen technologies how do you know chinese have it?? When chinese are themselves dependent on russian for engine and frontline fighters su35??

And did usa was even ready to sell F35 to india?? Is f35 a mature 5th gen fighter ?? Has it attained all operational clearances??

First find answers to all these questions. You will begin to understand somethings.
What is a 5th gen technology ?
What is a 5th gen fighter ?

I will help you. It is only marketing, and it have absolutely no sense at all.

Stealth technology ? On which aspect of the electromagnetic spectrum ? IR, EM ? which frequency band ? Passive or active stleath ? Which level of discretion.

What about electromagnetic warfare, sensors, data fusion, super menoeuvrability, super cruise, connectivity and so on ?

As the world is not in black and white but in (more than 50) nuances of grey, there is no 5th gen fighter or not 5th gen fighter.

F22 is the 5th generation of air dominance fighter in USA only because it have replaced a 4th generation fighter (the F15), himself have replaced the 3rd which was the F4, and so on. Same for F35 that replace the 4th generation of fighter (mainly F18 and F16).

If you think and argue with too simplist terms you will be off topic. You will not understand a lot of things because they will be to much complicated to enter in simplest box to check.
 

Kalkioftoday

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Seriously, on which facts or data do you rely on to telling to every one this kind of peremptory affirmation ?

What do you know about Rafale ?
What do you know about J20 ?
What do you know about tactics, pilot training, experience in case of any confrontation between the two countries ?

Let me gess... nothing.

Lets continue. How do you know that Amca wil solve this "problem" ?

If we can compare some of the fighter aircrafts values all over the wolrd due to some past confrontation in recent exercices and with comparative rules of engagmen (Rafale vs Mirage vs F16-15-22-35 vs Typhoon vs whatever...), you cannot really compare with chineese made products. Why ? Because there are no existing data.

More than that, China have a really huge army, but we don't know how it could react face of occidental or russian army which have, unfortunately, a very long experience about war.

This experience as we call retex in France (return of experience) is a game changing because based on this experience the tools to make war are really differents from the initial designs.

Rafale have systems that evolve permanently and continuously. The Rafale that enter into service in 2006 have nothing in common in term of capacity with the ones India have received (F3R) and the one you should upgrade in some years with F4 and F5 for which development have already started.

From what I know, there is no any other plane in the world that use virtualisation and modularity as main phylosophy design of the plain. Consequence, except for the airframe, all the systems evolve continuously.

So, even if you affirmation is true today (what nobody could know now), it will be not true for tomorow.
Instead of writing this big long post you should've compare the design of both Rafale and J20 and you would've understand the things better. Emotions won't get you nowhere especially in a combat zone. Your pilot training, tactics and experience won't compensate the shortcomings of your hardware. If we talk about Rafale against the J16, J10 (And even the 'J20' only if Rafale and J20 dogfight) than we can talk about the pilot training, experience and tactics but the moment the enemy upgrade themselves a level more (4the gen to 5th gen) that moment we better upgrade ourselves too cuz in the BVR fight the probability of the 4th gen non stealth fighter getting shot down by the 5th gen is much higher. And about the privilege of having the notion of 'chinese made products' is inferior compared to the what you have can suit you europeans who neither border china nor have to fight a bloody war and if someday your notion of their real capabilities turn out to be false than still it won't cost you a dime but for us it's different, we cannot undermine them and if we do the results will not preety for us.

Your talk about 'retex', 'evolution', 'virtualisation', 'modularity as main phylosophy design' won't stop the enemy radar from reflects of the Rafale's non stealth body, it's outboard mounted pylon and weapon, it's fuel tank and light the enemy's radar screen as a christmas tree. You can upgrade the Rafale's radar, ew, avionics and softwares as much as you want but still it won't be a stealthy 5th gen platform. Ask Finland and Switzerland why the choose a stealthy platform if Rafale can do all the things that a 5th gen can.

And about the question of how AMCA can solve the problem, well, honestly speaking i don't know if AMCA can 100% take care of the J20 everytime cuz their are many many parameters to count but but if i have the choice of fighting a 5th gen enemy fighter with a 4th gen Rafale and a 5th gen AMCA than i will always choose the AMCA.
 

Kalkioftoday

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What is a 5th gen technology ?
What is a 5th gen fighter ?

I will help you. It is only marketing, and it have absolutely no sense at all.

Stealth technology ? On which aspect of the electromagnetic spectrum ? IR, EM ? which frequency band ? Passive or active stleath ? Which level of discretion.

What about electromagnetic warfare, sensors, data fusion, super menoeuvrability, super cruise, connectivity and so on ?

As the world is not in black and white but in (more than 50) nuances of grey, there is no 5th gen fighter or not 5th gen fighter.

F22 is the 5th generation of air dominance fighter in USA only because it have replaced a 4th generation fighter (the F15), himself have replaced the 3rd which was the F4, and so on. Same for F35 that replace the 4th generation of fighter (mainly F18 and F16).

If you think and argue with too simplist terms you will be off topic. You will not understand a lot of things because they will be to much complicated to enter in simplest box to check.
Yup buddy, 5th gen is a hoax. And the hoax is so believable that french government, it's airforce and it's navy is planning to spend billions to develop it. What a fool they are, they just could've upgrade the Rafale upto F10 version and it could've beaten anything.

fcas-dassault-airbus-germany-france-fighter-jet.jpg
 

bubzy

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Yup buddy, 5th gen is a hoax. And the hoax is so believable that french government, it's airforce and it's navy is planning to spend billions to develop it. What a fool they are, they just could've upgrade the Rafale upto F10 version and it could've beaten anything.

View attachment 129654
And ?
France need to replace rafale at a moment or another. It will be a new generation fighter (because it will replace the older one)

This is completely normal. And have nothing to do with "5th gen technology" at all.
I asked a really simple question. What is a 5th generation fighter or technology. How to define it ? Please answer to that.
 

BON PLAN

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Yup buddy, 5th gen is a hoax.
What is 5th gen?
It's only a marketing coup, very potent, from LM.
Let me explain : according to own first LM definition, a 5th gen fighter has to be : stealth, supercruising able, sensor fusing, agile as a F16, affordable.
F35 was studied to be a full 5th gen.
But the bird is not a full success : it is not agile as a F16, it is not supercruising, it is not affordable. But every one say it's a 5th gen fighter.

F35 has only 2 of the 5 assets of a 5th gen. Rafale lacks only two : it is not affordable, it is not a true VLO (but is LO). So.... do your math.
 

bubzy

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Instead of writing this big long post you should've compare the design of both Rafale and J20 and you would've understand the things better. Emotions won't get you nowhere especially in a combat zone. Your pilot training, tactics and experience won't compensate the shortcomings of your hardware. If we talk about Rafale against the J16, J10 (And even the 'J20' only if Rafale and J20 dogfight) than we can talk about the pilot training, experience and tactics but the moment the enemy upgrade themselves a level more (4the gen to 5th gen) that moment we better upgrade ourselves too cuz in the BVR fight the probability of the 4th gen non stealth fighter getting shot down by the 5th gen is much higher. And about the privilege of having the notion of 'chinese made products' is inferior compared to the what you have can suit you europeans who neither border china nor have to fight a bloody war and if someday your notion of their real capabilities turn out to be false than still it won't cost you a dime but for us it's different, we cannot undermine them and if we do the results will not preety for us.

Your talk about 'retex', 'evolution', 'virtualisation', 'modularity as main phylosophy design' won't stop the enemy radar from reflects of the Rafale's non stealth body, it's outboard mounted pylon and weapon, it's fuel tank and light the enemy's radar screen as a christmas tree. You can upgrade the Rafale's radar, ew, avionics and softwares as much as you want but still it won't be a stealthy 5th gen platform. Ask Finland and Switzerland why the choose a stealthy platform if Rafale can do all the things that a 5th gen can.

And about the question of how AMCA can solve the problem, well, honestly speaking i don't know if AMCA can 100% take care of the J20 everytime cuz their are many many parameters to count but but if i have the choice of fighting a 5th gen enemy fighter with a 4th gen Rafale and a 5th gen AMCA than i will always choose the AMCA.
Finland and Switzerland have chosen the F35 for technical reasons, but we don't have any details. It is a matter of political choice too. But if EM discretion could be part of the decision it far to be the only technical argument.

Passive Stealth is not the absolute game changer. If currently it will give to your platform some advantages, in the case of F35 it comes with a lot of disadvantages too.
Passive Stealth will become a new standard for all newly developed airframe, because this technology is more knowed now than before, and research and development is helped with very efficient computers that simulate EM And could help you to design airframe that the first guys who have designed the first ones (F117 and B2) didn't have at this time. (it is a little bit more complicated than that but anyway...)

When you engage a combat, if your discretion performance could help you to be detected less easily by ennemies radar, it is not the only key point.
Because your steamy platform will also use Radar, because we never found a way to hide IR emission (only to limit it), and because EM discretion is efficient only face to thin band of EM scope, this advantage will not be kept as a cape of invisibility as it is often understood.

There are a lot of ways to counter "Stealth" platforms. You must know them.
If I'm a pilot of J20 or even F22 or F35, I will not be so confident in my Stealth capabilities, even in front of older airplanes. Specially if they have the ability to detect my own radar emission, my IR emission, or of they use multistatic radar detection.

In a air to air combat, Stealth could help, but it is far to be the only key point. Is true for any kind of fighter.

To answer again to @Kalkioftoday, France is not only developing a new air frame, but what they consider as system of systems. In that "system of systems" airframe is one of the component. And some of these systems will be integrated in Rafale as well. And some of these systems will be developed as continuation that what France is already developing for future Rafale upgrades.

Don't be so confident in your AMCA.
I remind you the HAL is not able to develop a simple airframe to train your own pilots. LCA, after more than 30 years of development is still not able to perform the tasks for what it was initially developed. Navy has abandoned a carrier version. A lot of electronic is not even made in India, and the engine as well.

I'm not saying that french engineer are better that the one in India. All humans have same capabilities. But in France (USA, Russia, UK...) There is a long story behind airplane conception. These abilities are very hard to get, and then to maintain. It comes only with a very strong political will. It is what China understood and you can observe that there are spending a LOT to try to catch the level of technology we have in occident, by starting from scratch in seventies. And I personally consider that for some points there have already overtaken the western countries.

You cannot be confident in AMCA only because it will be a game changer with stealth and a lot of new technologies. For the moment it is lot of promises. If political will is strong, and development found comes also, then maybe you will have an operational fighter. But I'm quite sure it will come only with the next generation (after AMCA) because India have not demonstrate yet the ability to develop such kind of systems.
Your country need to learn a lot. They will fail and they will learn. And of they continue to spend time and money they will finish to do something well.
Consider how many time and money it took to China to be able to develop fighters, compare with the efforts allowed by your successives government's in India. There are some cultural differences for sure, but it is mainly a matter of strategical choices taken long time ago that will allow you to build an effective fighter with in the next 20 years.
 

The Shrike

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There must be an epidemic of Chut*apa spreading across westerns/aligned airforces that are selecting the virgin F-35 rather than the chad Rafale (or Eurofighter or Gripen). If only these professional airforce personnel could consult with 420 IQ anonymous interweb handles they would make the right choice. /s
Geez the level of butt hurt makes me cringe :facepalm: .
 

bubzy

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There must be an epidemic of Chut*apa spreading across westerns/aligned airforces that are selecting the virgin F-35 rather than the chad Rafale (or Eurofighter or Gripen). If only these professional airforce personnel could consult with 420 IQ anonymous interweb handles they would make the right choice. /s
Geez the level of butt hurt makes me cringe :facepalm: .
I don't understand your reaction and your reply on my post. I don't know what do you have understood from me.
Did I mentionned that european air force made a bad choice ?
Did I mentionned that Rafale, Gripen or Typhoon are beter than F35 ?
No. So... I don't understand your statement.
 

bubzy

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Your talk about 'retex', 'evolution', 'virtualisation', 'modularity as main phylosophy design' won't stop the enemy radar from reflects of the Rafale's non stealth body, it's outboard mounted pylon and weapon, it's fuel tank and light the enemy's radar screen as a christmas tree. You can upgrade the Rafale's radar, ew, avionics and softwares as much as you want but still it won't be a stealthy 5th gen platform.
You don't have in mind the subtility of all the aspects of an aerial combat. So I will try to explain to you some ideas in order to be less binary, especially when we are talking about stealth tech aspect.

1- EM Stealth is an objective of discretion against ennemy radar. The goal is to be detected as late as possible. There is no existing technology today that allow you to be invisible.
2- you can achieve EM discretion with multiple ways. Shape of your airframe, materials, electromagnetic response to the ones you receive.
3- if your airplane is "stealth" ( I don't like this word, I prefer vlo) you have to be low observable also on all other scope in electromagnetic field, including IR and visible light, which is not possible today.
4- if you want to be vlo you must not use your Radar or make it with lpi technology (low probability of interception), and adapt your tactics.

Today, if is it true that Rafale is not a vlo airframe, its comes with technologies that allow to be protected against ennemies attacks. We have multiple testimonies against S300, typhoon or other airplane when Rafale come closer than other airplane, or being detected while nobody is able to "lock on" it (no fire solution)

Rafale is already able to work in cooperation with other planes in the same patrol. One of the tactics is to have multiple plane with long range detection backward, and other planes flying low that receive shot solution and fire with their radar off.

With a very sensitive RWR and, Spectra is also able to initiate firing solution without using radar, but by using other sensors like the front sector optronic suite.

That means in a situation where some Rafale are facing J20, the J20 is able to detect the Rafale with its Radar, while the Rafale don't detect the EM waves coming to him. Because the closest Rafale have their own Radar off, the J20 could not detect it without using Radar.

If both planes use there own optronic sensors instead of Radar for some reason, EM VLO is no more an advantage.

That's why it is all about tactics, and much more complicated than a simpliest way to explain things like "airplane with vlo characteristics have a definitive advantage, can detect other when being not detectable themself".
Is like a submarine in the water. It remains not detected until it will use the sonar.
War is not like in the movies.

And because at this time we know NOTHING (in the public at least) of the real capacity of the J20 and how the Rafale is able to manage it, we could not argue that a J20 we will see on its Radar scope as a Christmas tree. We are no more in the year 1970 and even here it started to be complicated...

When you simplify too much, you loose the ability to clearly understand all the parameters and to be wrong.
 

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