Kaveri Engine

[THESIS THORON]

Bro,read what I said earlier. I said we lack in materials, manufacturing technologies & testing infrastructure. But as far as designing the 110KN engine is considered,we can do it even today.

considering that we have achieved 1850k, we are full 2 gen behind

imo we will never catchup, due to funds

 

[MonaLazy]

Bro,read what I said earlier. I said we lack in materials, manufacturing technologies & testing infrastructure. But as far as designing the 110KN engine is considered,we can do it even today.

How? It's a classic chicken and egg problem no?

We don't have the materials to withstand 2300K because our HPC & HPT would have melted way before that TET. If we can't get up to a temperature then how can we analyse the flow and temperature distribution inside it- to optimise it (thereby increasing its reliability)? Even designing a combustor to ignite fuel most efficiently is patent worthy work. Or are you saying we can design even a 200kN thrust engine in software and realise it if we have the materials for it?

Safran tested an M88 derived engine with Thermocolor, which requires heat-sensitive paint; applied to the blades of the engine's high-pressure turbine blades, it measures the temperature thanks to a color change. Do you know of we do something similar for Kaveri?

I think engine dev is a lot more incremental- whatever TET we can reliably achieve with Kaveri today, for the next iteration bump that up by 200K and test the heck out of that engine - thrust will automatically increase so our focus is wrong- we should focus on achieving reliable and sustained performance at say 1900K - develop the materials for it with some margin of safety. Once that's done target 2100K, then 2300K, then 2500K... and so on progressively.

 

[THESIS THORON]

How? It's a classic chicken and egg problem no?

We don't have the materials to withstand 2300K because our HPC & HPT would have melted way before that TET. If we can't get up to a temperature then how can we analyse the flow and temperature distribution inside it- to optimise it (thereby increasing its reliability)? Even designing a combustor to ignite fuel most efficiently is patent worthy work. Or are you saying we can design even a 200kN thrust engine in software and realise it if we have the materials for it?

Safran tested an M88 derived engine with Thermocolor, which requires heat-sensitive paint; applied to the blades of the engine's high-pressure turbine blades, it measures the temperature thanks to a color change. Do you know of we do something similar for Kaveri?

I think engine dev is a lot more incremental- whatever TET we can reliably achieve with Kaveri today, for the next iteration bump that up by 200K and test the heck out of that engine - thrust will automatically increase so our focus is wrong- we should focus on achieving reliable and sustained performance at say 1900K - develop the materials for it with some margin of safety. Once that's done target 2100K, then 2300K, then 2500K... and so on progressively.

If we cant get to that tet, then why dont we develop variable cycle engine with 1900k blades.

by this method we can get somewhat closer to the next gen performance ??

 

[THESIS THORON]

found on strategic front

feb - 16 2019

bc 3 saal hogaye

 

[THESIS THORON]

most probably we use our blades in al31fp

the above post has written that thing

 

[THESIS THORON]

we had made dsm4 around 2014, still after a decade, there is no signs of dsm5

 

[MonaLazy]

If we cant get to that tet, then why dont we develop variable cycle engine with 1900k blades.

by this method we can get somewhat closer to the next gen performance ??

Quoting David Tweedie, GE Edison Works’ General Manager of Advanced Combat Engines "There is no overnight success in this business- worked over a decade with Air Force partners (footing the bill) so we had the technology at the right risk level before we made the commitment to put it out into the field.

Historically we've had to design fighter engines really to maximize thrust and fuel burn was the fall out- now with the tyranny of distance in some of the theatres that we operate in the warfighter needs to have the ability to go far and then when they are there to have the thrust when they need to have effective combat performance.

1. adaptive engine
2. 3rd stream (thermal management system to put more & more mission systems)
3. advanced materials and manufacturing technologies including CMCs ('00s of degrees of increased temperature capability, lighter weight & durability) & additive manufacturing (to print any part you need without being constrained by limits of traditional manufacturing & design)

all these come together in a single engine for a 25% more fuel-efficient engine 10-20% more thrust & over 2x thermal management capacity of conventional architectures.

For the warfighter it means more range & better combat effectiveness.

What are adaptive cycle engines?

Throughout most of aviation history, engine design has always been about compromise. Commercial, cargo, and many reconnaissance aircraft usually leverage engines that were designed to offer excellent fuel efficiency at the expense of top-end performance, while tactical jets like fighters carry engines that are designed primarily for maximum performance at the expense of fuel efficiency.

The aim of adaptive cycle (sometimes called variable cycle) engines is to eliminate this compromise and offer superior performance and efficiency in a single power plant. In order to do so, these engines are designed to operate in different “modes.” When the pilot needs the engine’s peak performance in combat, he or she can lean hard on the throttle and the engine’s management system will take its cue to switch into its heavy-burning high-thrust mode. Conversely, while on a patrol, the engine would stay in its high-efficiency, low-burning mode to stretch the mileage or loiter time provided by each gallon of fuel. “The mode transition is seamless to the pilot, and they won’t even know when it happens,” Tweedie said. “They will control engine power using the throttle the way they always have, and the engine schedule will determine the appropriate operational mode.”

The need?

While the Air Force is now exploring the idea of sticking these engines under the hoods of F-35As, that boost in range would be especially valuable to the Navy. The F-35C has a total range of approximately 1,200 nautical miles, giving it a 600 mile combat radius in the best of times. That’s not far enough to launch sorties at China without putting America’s carriers in range of China’s hypersonic anti-ship weapons. A 25% boost in range, say to 750 miles, isn’t enough to eliminate this capability gap, but it’s a step in the right direction.

GE tested their XA100 at their high altitude test cell in Evendale, Ohio over the span of more than three months, starting at the tail end of 2020. According to their reports, their XA100 actually exceeded their performance targets on top of successfully demonstrating its ability to operate in both high-thrust and low-burn modes. The engine produces a total of 45,000 pounds (200 KN) of thrust, slightly better than the 43,000 pounds offered by the F-35’s current Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 afterburning turbofan.

“Not only are we meeting that, we’re actually exceeding that pretty much everywhere in the flight envelope—and in a few places—up to 20% [more thrust],” Tweedie said. “We are very happy with where we are from thrust in terms of over-delivering versus the program requirement.”

“When you translate that to what it means to the platform, it’s 30% more range or 50% more loiter time depending on how you want to utilize that fuel burn improvement. It’s a significant increase in acceleration and combat capability with the increased thrust,” he added.

While this new engine’s ability to seamlessly transition between tearing through the sky like a top fuel dragster and minding the fuel gauge like a Toyota Prius might catch the attention of aviation enthusiasts, it might be the engine’s thermal management and use of advanced component technologies that really make the XA100 a huge leap forward in fighter engines.

According to Tweedie, the XA100’s “three-stream architecture” enables a doubling of thermal management capacity, or in other words, a real reduction in the heat created by the engine’s operation. Heat is currently a limiting factor in power production for fighters, which have to limit their output to avoid damaging the aircraft itself. That will no longer be the case with the new generation of adaptive cycle engines, meaning fighters will have more electrical power to run systems.

Adaptive cycle engines may be the future of air combat
More power means the ability to run more advanced systems too, like directed energy weapons and even exotic new countermeasure systems like the Navy’s recent patent for “laser-induced plasma filament” holograms, effectively projecting the heat signature of another aircraft hundreds of feet away to distract inbound infrared-guided (heat-seeking) missiles.

The result combination of power, fuel efficiency, heat management, and resilient but lightweight construction make the XA100 the physical embodiment of a fighter engine wish-list. While any of these improvements in capability would be welcome in most fighter designs, the collection of them in a single system could well make for a power plant that is even greater than the sum of its parts.

The Air Force is eyeing groundbreaking new engines for the F-35

The Air Force is looking into an incredible new adaptive cycle engine that would give the F-35 a huge boost in capability.

www.sandboxx.us

 

[MonaLazy]

Advanced Combat Engines

Putting this in an Indian context:

• Do we have a Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 equivalent as on date?
• Do we even have functional indigenous engines that have spent decades on a fighter plane?
• Do we even have a naval fighter plane to plonk the engine into?
• Are we going to fight China from an ACC in the SCS? Or along the LAC??
• Do we need the 25% boost in combat radius given we are right next to China?
• Do we have the decade to spend to get to XA-100 from F135-PW-100?

While all tech leaps are welcome, for us at this stage a reliable engine that meets the performance requirements on AMCA Mk2 allowing it to supercruise should be the only focus- anything else IMHO is an unnecessary distraction.

 

[THESIS THORON]

What do you guys think abt max temp of dsm5 (upcoming scb) ??

 

[no smoking]

During Kaveri development,what we achieved is significant. With the knowledge & experience we gained , we can design a 110KN engine even today entirely on our own, that's not at all problem for us. The main problem is the Materials, Manufacturing technologies which were mentioned in that seminar & most importantly testing infrastructure. These are the key areas where we need help.

Isn't that designer's job - designing things based on the material and manufacturing technologies that are AVAILABLE?

It is meaningless to talk about design without putting basic reality into consideration.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

found on strategic front

feb - 16 2019

bc 3 saal hogaye


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interesting information

 

[THESIS THORON]

interesting information

if you had any confusion with abbreviations in it tell me

 

[MiG-29SMT]

if you had any confusion with abbreviations in it tell me

I am eager for India to make jet engines operational, I wish you the best, I like airplanes in general, but I hate war, I like aerodynamics but I hate war, but I would be delighted to see a commercial jet made in India with Indian engines, In general I think all nations should cooperate and have more uses for peace, I like your LCA I love the LEVCONs on it, but I think civilian programs always have more future, because they make money upon economic factors, I am a little Ignorant upon Indian programs, but the information above about the blades and fans are interesting.

Regards

This aircraft I also like it The intermediate jet trainer, designated HJT-36 ,

 

[Spitfire9]

The countries of Europe (governments and citizens) are outraged that Russia has attacked a country on the edge of Europe. Why? For no better reason than that the despot running Russia wishes to conquer a democratic Ukraine and to absorb the country into a tyrranical Russian empire. India made itself conspicuous by declining to condemn this naked aggression at the UN. Of course, India is very dependent on Russia for weapons so it looks - at best - like India chose to stay in Russia's good books rather than to condemn the indefensible.

I do not think this bodes well for developing a 110kN engine in conjunction with a European partner. Neither UK nor France will be so keen on partnering with a Russian sycophant.

Unfortunate timing, isn't it, with US looking like it would waive CAATSA over S-400. If things develop the wrong way and India is viewed as a country so lacking in backbone that it will not display dissent to emperor Putin, whatever he does, what are the prospects of GE being allowed to offer 110kN engine co-development?

Time for India to start investing seriously in Kaveri?

 

[Lonewolf]

The countries of Europe (governments and citizens) are outraged that Russia has attacked a country on the edge of Europe. Why? For no better reason than that the despot running Russia wishes to conquer a democratic Ukraine and to absorb the country into a tyrranical Russian empire. India made itself conspicuous by declining to condemn this naked aggression at the UN. Of course, India is very dependent on Russia for weapons so it looks - at best - like India chose to stay in Russia's good books rather than to condemn the indefensible.

I do not think this nbodes well for developing a 110kN engine in conjunction with a European partner. Neither UK nor France will be so keen on partnering with a Russian sycophant.

Unfortunate timing, isn't it, with US looking like it would waive CAATSA over S-400. If things develop the wrong way and India is viewed as a country so lacking in backbone that it will not display dissent to emperor Putin, whatever he does, what are the prospects of GE being allowed to offer 110kN engine co-development?

Time for India to start investing seriously in Kaveri?

Do french are going to send their naval Armada to russian waters ? Or Britishers deploying their air force in Ukraine ? Even though they are part of NATO , nope ? Why would you want a open condemnation from us ?

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

The countries of Europe (governments and citizens) are outraged that Russia has attacked a country on the edge of Europe. Why? For no better reason than that the despot running Russia wishes to conquer a democratic Ukraine and to absorb the country into a tyrranical Russian empire. India made itself conspicuous by declining to condemn this naked aggression at the UN. Of course, India is very dependent on Russia for weapons so it looks - at best - like India chose to stay in Russia's good books rather than to condemn the indefensible.

I do not think this nbodes well for developing a 110kN engine in conjunction with a European partner. Neither UK nor France will be so keen on partnering with a Russian sycophant.

Unfortunate timing, isn't it, with US looking like it would waive CAATSA over S-400. If things develop the wrong way and India is viewed as a country so lacking in backbone that it will not display dissent to emperor Putin, whatever he does, what are the prospects of GE being allowed to offer 110kN engine co-development?

Time for India to start investing seriously in Kaveri?

I would recommend avoiding the Kool Aid. Once you are more clearheaded, then think about Kaveri

 

[indiatester]

The countries of Europe (governments and citizens) are outraged that Russia has attacked a country on the edge of Europe. Why? For no better reason than that the despot running Russia wishes to conquer a democratic Ukraine and to absorb the country into a tyrranical Russian empire. India made itself conspicuous by declining to condemn this naked aggression at the UN. Of course, India is very dependent on Russia for weapons so it looks - at best - like India chose to stay in Russia's good books rather than to condemn the indefensible.

I do not think this bodes well for developing a 110kN engine in conjunction with a European partner. Neither UK nor France will be so keen on partnering with a Russian sycophant.

Unfortunate timing, isn't it, with US looking like it would waive CAATSA over S-400. If things develop the wrong way and India is viewed as a country so lacking in backbone that it will not display dissent to emperor Putin, whatever he does, what are the prospects of GE being allowed to offer 110kN engine co-development?

Time for India to start investing seriously in Kaveri?

No one was going to help with 110kN engine.
CAATSA threat was used earlier too. West was never friendly and sees India with more dread than they do China.

Its time west realize that they are not partners enough with India in its progress to exert a vote in favour of them. India dispite its differences with China chose the path that China took as well.

But your finger wagging will not be equal with China. Hey, China is not democratic BTW!

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Do french are going to send their naval Armada to russian waters ? Or Britishers deploying their air force in Ukraine ? Even though they are part of NATO , nope ? Why would you want a open condemnation from us ?

Reading between the lines is that West doesn't want India to buy stuff from Russia be it defence equipment or civilian stuff like mineral oil or potash. They especially want us to stop importing military products.

 

[Spitfire9]

No one was going to help with 110kN engine.

I thought India spent months talking to RR about co-development last year. I don't remember if India spent months talking to SAFRAN before that. Was India not due to announce the chosen partner a few weeks from now?

Its time west realize that they are not partners enough with India in its progress to exert a vote in favour of them. India dispite its differences with China chose the path that China took as well.

Yes, seems sanctions on Russia and China are pulling the two countries closer together than they have been for a long time.

 

[TopWatcher]

Here is so much talk about india impact. India hv seen worst situation than this. This time India not going to avoid by anyone. What we want economy or war?