Kaveri Engine

[Vamsi]

That MTOW will increase if you have more thrust. MTOW will shift closer to 30 ton mark if you put those engines and your T/W will remain at 0.8 or so

But , the information available suggests that AMCA's MTOW will be 25 tons. So, let's wait until the official info about 110KN engine comes out

 

[THESIS THORON]

125KN will be an overkill for AMCA, at MTOW of 25T ,it will have T/W of exactly 1. Show me which fighter, be it a 4.5Gen or 5th Gen which had T/W= 1 at MTOW ?

Also I think 110KN will be baseline version, 125KN will be for possible future upgrades...

AMCA

 

[THESIS THORON]

imagine tejas mk2 with 125kn engine

 

[ObiWanKenobi]

But , the information available suggests that AMCA's MTOW will be 25 tons. So, let's wait until the official info about 110KN engine comes out

Yes, I too think the 25 ton figure is congruent with the 110kn engines. 125kn will increase that MTOW without doubt.

You would need to have a pretty poor take-off performance to need a T/W ratio of greater than 1 just to get off the ground.

 

[Nationalist Manasvi Papa]

When is he contract is likely to be signed?

 

[Covfefe]

imagine tejas mk2 with 125kn engine

Now re read the first word

 

[Hari Sud]

Safran, the French aerospace company which provides the fighter jet Rafale’s engines, is likely to partner with an Indian firm to manufacture the Kaveri engine for the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The LCA currently uses GE Aviation engines.

2022 is a promising year for India’s defence capabilities

Despite the pandemic, 2022 promises to be a watershed year for India’s goal of building a domestic military industrial complex — and becoming a global defence manufacturing hub

www.moneycontrol.com

‘I very much doubt that Safran (French) will part with enough technology to build an engine of 110/125 Kn capability in india. This technology has been tightly guarded by the West. Even if they are forced to part with this technology, then there will be conditions in which they retain some capability to end collaboration or know how.

A 50-50 venture is possible in India in which they supply a closed box of their part of technology and Indian supply their part and then they are married together. Brahmos missile is a key example of it. Alternative is that French technical experts come to india and add to existing technology which india has and build something new. This is a time consuming process where a breakthrough with French knowledge and expertise could take 5 years or more. This development will also take anywhere from $5 billion or more.

Whatever is being cooked with Safran is being speculated. We hope something good comes out of all these negotiations.

 

[Spitfire9]

IIRC both RR and SAFRAN were reported to want in the region of US$5 billion to develop a 110kN engine. My guess is that India would have got more for its money from RR - a more technically advanced engine and from a company probably more likely to share more of the new technology involved. One advantage of dealing with SAFRAN in my opinion is that France would probably be more reliable politically as a supplier (would better resist any future US pressure to halt/suspend supply than UK).

One hopes that the negotiations to finalise a contract do not get bogged down as they did with MMRCA 1.0 and also that they will not drag on for many months.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

There is a news that a JV dith safran is getting finalized for 75 kn/125 kn engine for AMCA. I am highly impressed with dry znd Afterburner thrust. If we will put this in Tejas Mk2, It will become super Tejas. Now, we should make fifth generation Tejas with TVC kaveri. This 75 kn/125 kn matches the thrust of AL31 with significantly less size and weight. Kaveri size and weight will produce the thrust of AL31 thrust. This is highly impressive.

 

[MonaLazy]

India would have got more for its money from RR

RR is collab-ing with the Japanese for their next-gen fighter engine effort- so they already have partners, support and funds. Also, one reason for pitting the RR against Safran would have been to go easy on the IPR, once RR tom-tom'd Safran had to fall in line or risk losing meaty business. Secondly, working with RR on something so strategic would have put us in the American camp who are already threatening CAATSA- God only knows how many stop/starts & delays a 10 year program with the UK/Americans would have suffered.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Yes, I too think the 25 ton figure is congruent with the 110kn engines. 125kn will increase that MTOW without doubt.

You would need to have a pretty poor take-off performance to need a T/W ratio of greater than 1 just to get off the ground.

Thumb rule is MTOW=Dry thrustX0.25 in Tons. Tejas has 54 kn Dry thrust engine. 54X0.25=13.5 Which is MTOW of Tejas Mk1. However, Modern fighters due to its superior design exceeds Dry ThrustX0.30 MTOW. Example is MWF. 58/17.5>3. This ratio is too high for MWF which some times forces me to believe that GE 414 EPE is planned for MWF rather than GE414 IN6.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Koreans are calling kfx as 4.5 gen because it lacks iwb , lot of antenna aren't conformal , irst in place of conformal DAS , no EOTS , plus engine .

Not just because of engine .

And you won't go mach 1.6 plus with use of external hardpoints in a dogfight , and in stealth mission , dry thrust matters more which if is near 73 kn then is good enough for it to supercruise at mach 1.5 plus in clean configuration .

So afterburner thrust is less important in stealth jets than dry thrust , if it increases the dimensions too much to increase afterburner thrust then Better settle for lower afterburner thrust initially

The numbers of supercruise at 73KN with 1500kg of internal storage is an assumption until unless DRDO comes out with the numbers of their plan. We do not know that. So do you mean Koreans with KFX do not have the IWB and other issues but India wants to design an pure air superiority fighter with nearly.the same engine specs the Koreans are using? And with better payload specs?

I think somewhere down the line, ADA realised 110KN engine isn't going to be enough. It also needs to have pretty decent internal.fuel capacity along with other goodies inside the fighter. The news of 125KN engine does makes sense in this regard. The project is in design phase and it can be fluid.

Now if it all this news is proven wrong, I would gladly agree you are right.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

125KN will be an overkill for AMCA, at MTOW of 25T ,it will have T/W of exactly 1. Show me which fighter, be it a 4.5Gen or 5th Gen which had T/W= 1 at MTOW ?

Also I think 110KN will be baseline version, 125KN will be for possible future upgrades...

That's why I said, maybe, maybe, the design is being uprated. Or ADA has realised, the fighter itself will be heavier than they had planned. Moreover, if we do not use the 125KN engine, we would have all fighters equipped with GE404 and 414IN/EPE engines. More.info will be our when we sign the agreement.

 

[no smoking]

If I am right variable cycle Engines are meant for 6th generation aircrafts. We don't even know what makes a 6th generation aircraft. The British who are working on it say they are employing Big data, Artificial Intelligence for their tempest project. But still nothing is clear as of yet. Yes the variable engine is one key difference which will distinguish 6th generation jets. And what else exactly?

No, variable cycle engine is not specifically designed for 6th gen jet but the natural development of jet engine. Without next generation jet, people is going to develop the cycle engine because it is the best hope of improving engine performance in short term unless other new engine concept succeed which won't happen in a short period time.

Americans have already learnt the hard way that 5th generation jets are expensive in terms of R & D and also to maintain and their flying cost per hour. That is why they are back to inducting more F-15's in their arsenal even though they are to receive more F-35's. Once USAF knew F-22 was eating into their budget they had to stop production of F-22's.

No, the higher cost of F-35 is due to:
1. Too ambitious project objective, Americans tried to make a fighter jet to meet any battle environment. This increases the complexity of the jet;
2. There is no big war expected in next 20 years, there is no demand of large 5th gen jet fleet. Without enough orders, certainly you can't archive economic scale;
3. The de-industrialization did damage US' high-end manufacturing base;

If 6th generation jets is all about only variable cycle engines and eliminating vertical stabilizers then we might as well stick to 5th generation jets for sometime and reduce their operating costs. The flying cost of F-35 per hour is $25,000 and that itself is expensive to USAF who have the highest budget in the world. One wonders what would be the cost of 6th generation jets.

Fighter jet is a comprehensive fighting platform, engine is only part of it. There is no clear vision of what 6th gen jet will be like. But one thing for sure: it is not about variable cycle engine only. In fact, variable cycle engine will be the smallest factor of all the improvements.

 

[MonaLazy]

One advantage of dealing with SAFRAN in my opinion is that France would probably be more reliable politically as a supplier (would better resist any future US pressure to halt/suspend supply than UK).

One hopes that the negotiations to finalise a contract do not get bogged down as they did with MMRCA 1.0 and also that they will not drag on for many months.

Someone told me it has always been Safran for the domestic engine program. Rolls Royce was intentionally brought in to make Safran sit at the negotiations seriously. DRDO had rejected their proposal earlier -- towards offset obligations from the Rafale contract.

The general buzz is the agreement will be concluded in 1-2 months which means they are most of the way there.


MTOW is still 25 tonnes

On Kaveri for LCA

Safran estimated a 5 year TL to get the Kaveri functional. And then we have to go for the integration and testing with the MWF which, was originally designed around the GE-F414.

 

[Lonewolf]

The numbers of supercruise at 73KN with 1500kg of internal storage is an assumption until unless DRDO comes out with the numbers of their plan. We do not know that. So do you mean Koreans with KFX do not have the IWB and other issues but India wants to design an pure air superiority fighter with nearly.the same engine specs the Koreans are using? And with better payload specs?

I think somewhere down the line, ADA realised 110KN engine isn't going to be enough. It also needs to have pretty decent internal.fuel capacity along with other goodies inside the fighter. The news of 125KN engine does makes sense in this regard. The project is in design phase and it can be fluid.

Now if it all this news is proven wrong, I would gladly agree you are right.

Assumption ?? It is basic maths , amca aerodynamics is given more preference in designing than its stealth characteristics , so obviously it would require less thrust for similar aerodynamics performance to that of f 22 , which is the unchallenged maneuverable king , hace 29.5 t gross weight , amca at 20t gross weight will require 3*73 kn engine dry to achieve same maneuverability specs , factoring the loss of thrust of f 22 due to its nozzles while amca engine will use 3d thrust vectoring with much lesser thrust reduction .

And if weight of amca increased then they must have gone bonkers , cause they have improved a lot in their manufacturing technology and tejas had a quite good percentage of composite in its body which provide higher performance at same weight , plus the landing gears etc are being worked on to make them less bulkier , the electronics part is being improved , and hydro mech actuators are being replaced at lot of places by electric actuators , if all weight saving arrangements are made to reduce weight then this naive assessment of weight gain lies flat and to be looked upon.
Still if you think that amca has gone overweight then please make detailed post of the areas of possible weight gain

 

[Vamsi]

The numbers of supercruise at 73KN with 1500kg of internal storage is an assumption until unless DRDO comes out with the numbers of their plan. We do not know that. So do you mean Koreans with KFX do not have the IWB and other issues but India wants to design an pure air superiority fighter with nearly.the same engine specs the Koreans are using? And with better payload specs?

I think somewhere down the line, ADA realised 110KN engine isn't going to be enough. It also needs to have pretty decent internal.fuel capacity along with other goodies inside the fighter. The news of 125KN engine does makes sense in this regard. The project is in design phase and it can be fluid.

Now if it all this news is proven wrong, I would gladly agree you are right.

1500KG IWB is not a blind assumption, it is based on this

 

[Lonewolf]

1500KG IWB is not a blind assumption, it is based on this

View attachment 141150

2020 brochure ?

 

[Vamsi]

2020 brochure ?

2018

 

[Lonewolf]

2018

I mean do you have 2020 brouchre