Kaveri Engine

[Indx TechStyle]

ISRO must research in this aspect to bring a shuttle to life and so we cam get an engine capable enough to power our future endeavor

ISRO isn't a magical sort of organization to make anything. The jobs DRDO & other DPSUs carry out are simply far more complex than ISRO's.

 

[Deathstar]

ISRO isn't a magical sort of organization to make anything. The jobs DRDO & other DPSUs carry out are simply far more complex than ISRO's.

I dont think there is anything more complex that DRDO does than landing manned /unmanned missions to the moon or missions to Sun/other planets , or even exo systems

 

[mayfair]

Fervently wishing that Kaveri comes to life and into service somehow, even if it powers a drone.

Once we have an engine of our own, we can try and improve the performance in subsequent iterations.

 

[VIP]

ISRO isn't a magical sort of organization to make anything. The jobs DRDO & other DPSUs carry out are simply far more complex than ISRO's.

I disagree, space science is not easy. And I'm not saying what DRDO doing is easy, it's complex but they simply don't want to do or don't let anyone to do because of corruption, ego and many things.

I do believe after 60 years of research, Indians who are finest brains in the world can do better than this.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I disagree, space science is not easy.

The level of space science we pursue is much easier to pursue than what we are trying to pursue in defense.

Making an aero engine is far more difficult than building a rocket engine.

And I'm not saying what DRDO doing is easy, it's complex but they simply don't want to do or don't let anyone to do because of corruption, ego and many things.

No, it's lack of technological base. We never had a generous technology teacher unlike China who had USSR. France gave us little while others really didn't give anything at all.

We developed tech from scratch, matured it and we are pretty good in improvement in technologies we are experienced in.

We are improving gradually still.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I dont think there is anything more complex that DRDO does than landing manned /unmanned missions to the moon or missions to Sun/other planets , or even exo systems

No, DRDO has much more complex. Making calculations along forces of planet isn't as tough as fighting thousands of factor on this planet.
In space, still you get away once you are successful. Success means quality in ISRO's case. Other PSUs aren't that lucky.

 

[VIP]

The level of space science we pursue is much easier to pursue than what we are trying to pursue in defense.

Making an aero engine is far more difficult than building a rocket engine.

No, it's lack of technological base. We never had a generous technology teacher unlike China who had USSR. France gave us little while others really didn't give anything at all.

We developed tech from scratch, matured it and we are pretty good in improvement in technologies we are experienced in.

We are improving gradually still.

I hope you are right about it.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I hope you are right about it.

I am.
An expendable SLV has an expendable single use engine. While in case of a turbofan, an aircraft has upto 10,000 flights in it's lifetime.

Continuous exposure to extremely high temporature & pressure results in accelerated corrosion (called hot corrosion) and deformation (thermal creep). You need nickel based superalloys so that metal doesn't change state.

Things aren't as simple as you think to be. If ISRO could do anything here, they would have done long ago. Any government wouldn't have let India's defense fail in that way.

Space sector has just not been taken that seriously by governments around world. Just set bigger goals for space agencies and see where they fare.

 

[IndianHawk]

I dont think there is anything more complex that DRDO does than landing manned /unmanned missions to the moon or missions to Sun/other planets , or even exo systems

China has landed rover on moon . Yet china doesn't have a reliable efficient jet engine.

Jet engine is one of the most complex technology of all time. It's like using the same rocket engine for thousands time that too with a human flying it at variable speeds.



Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[IndianHawk]

Interesting discussion on BRF regarding Kaveri blades and gtre labs.

We maybe closer to our own solutions with recent developments. That is why french offer at high costs is not acceptable.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[kunal1123]

cross posting from BRF

Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

• Quote

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2019 22:48

Folks there is some thing wrong with the picture of Kaveri engine if you look from earned value management (EVM) perspective.

Ok. Lets look.

Kaveri revised cost to complete is- 250M (SAFRAN Offset)+ 500 M= 750 M Euros

DRDO has already spent 240 M euros.
So total Kaveri project cost is 240+750M = 990M euros

So in money spent the revised progress is 240/990= 24%
However DRDO says Kaveri is only a few KN short of desired requirement and we have been blue in the face quoting that.
Besides only few months back SAFRAN had said Kaveri is good to fly and should be flight tested.
Agreed its a few KN short.

So obviously there is a huge gap in assessing the Kaveri progress.
Does the revised estimates include cost of fabrication facilities?

We are missing something. And the DRDO scientist whom Pubby talked to did not tell the whole picture.

If the progress is really only 24% it needs a fresh start and can spend the 500M Euros and get on with it.
Basically for 750M Euros one can design a new Kaveri engine and move on.
Someone needs to tell the truth and its not being told.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

• Quote

Postby JayS » 17 Aug 2019 23:15

I just noticed that there was a tender floated by GTRE in Jan Feb 2019 period for Machining, Brazing and TBC for SCB. Most likely for Kaveri. Given the inflow of a number of tenders in last frlew months on various modules, its safe to conclude they are building new prototypes. Are they intending to use SCB now in Kaveri..? Could be. But I am not sure 100%.

Also, another thing I noticed just now, DMRL person during AI2017 Seminar mentioned DMRal has done Preliminary development for 7YSZ ceramic TBC coating using EB-PVD, in collaboration with ARCI. And then a couple of months ago, there was a tender floated by DMRL for setting up a EBPVD facility for TBC. What for..? Industrialization of the Tech..? ARCI was the one perhaps who did the TBC for HTSE1200 SCBs. Looks like a lot is happening in the background.

 

[no smoking]

No, it's lack of technological base. We never had a generous technology teacher unlike China who had USSR. France gave us little while others really didn't give anything at all.

Really? Since last 1960s, USSR had set up production in India to produce R-25 for Mig-21, then R29B, RD-33. The AL-31FP is the latest. When did China get such generous offer? How many French jet engine has been produced in India?

We developed tech from scratch

Really?

 

[republic_roi97]

When did China get such generous offer?

They don't need a generous offer.

USSR had set up production in India to produce R-25 for Mig-21, then R29B, RD-33. The AL-31FP is the latest.

How much of it is localised ? Merely assembled here. I don't think they would've given us tech to localise these engines.

 

[republic_roi97]

Really

Why does the idea of "developing something from scratch" comes as a surprise to chinese ? Brother, sorry to tell you, but things can be developed from scratch, take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Really? Since last 1960s, USSR had set up production in India to produce R-25 for Mig-21, then R29B, RD-33. The AL-31FP is the latest. When did China get such generous offer?

They set up an assembly line that killed India's own R&D project of fighter aircraft.

How many French jet engine has been produced in India?

Not jet engine but missiles & rocket engine.

Really?

Yes, if you go on linking inspiration with support, then entire tech China has got was for granted.
We have talked earlier about these techs one could only "dream of".

 

[no smoking]

How much of it is localised ? Merely assembled here. I don't think they would've given us tech to localise these engines.

Merely assembled? Look at this news:


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...th-su_30-engine-built-from-raw-materials.html


Producing a foreign engine from raw material phase is not a merely assembling job. It means Russians transferred quite a lot technologies and know-how of components manufacturing. These tech aids won’t make India 100% self-reliance on jet engines, but they certainly set up the basis for Indian own jet engine development.

They set up an assembly line that killed India's own R&D project of fighter aircraft.

Firstly, it is India who asks for the assembly line. People don’t spend hundreds millions dollars to buy something has no value. Are you suggesting those Indian scientists, generals and officers are fools?

Secondly, manufacturing technologies are also part of technologies. They are also the result of R&D. For example, it took others 5-6 years to turn their SCB from a lab artwork into a factory product. With Russia’s help, India saved all these times and put herself into an elite club.

Not jet engine but missiles & rocket engine.

Are you telling me that India didn’t benefit from Russia’s techs on missiles and rocket engine?

Yes, if you go on linking inspiration with support, then entire tech China has got was for granted.

What a beautiful word – “inspiration”. After learning so much from Russians, India is only inspired as if all those knowledges just disappeared.

We have talked earlier about these techs one could only "dream of".

Yes, you did the same thing last time: claiming Chinese got all these “dream of” techs while India was only “inspired”.


I have no problem that you think Chinese got full support from Russia and West. It is just too funny when an Indian says that they didn’t receive tech support from Russia. Please tell this to Russians.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Technical analysis ceramics matrix composites.

 

[Suryavanshi]

ISRO isn't a magical sort of organization to make anything. The jobs DRDO & other DPSUs carry out are simply far more complex than ISRO's.

I disagree, space science is not easy. And I'm not saying what DRDO doing is easy, it's complex but they simply don't want to do or don't let anyone to do because of corruption, ego and many things.

I do believe after 60 years of research, Indians who are finest brains in the world can do better than this.

I think the answers is somewhere in between.
Yes Rocket engine is complex but not as complex as turbofan. Rocket engine are low efficency high power engines while Tubrofan are High efficiency endurance engine.
It's not like we can't make a turbofan, we have already made it. Our problem is that the engine isn't meeting our needs.
The engine currently produces some 85 KN force, while we need some 95 KN.
Also the engine is overweight compared to its counterpart and has performance issue at high Altitudes.

But look at it in a positive way we have made a decent tubofan in our first shot, its a incredible feat in itself.
American, Russia, Europe has 70 years of experience in making all kinds of engines so you have to consider that when comparing us to them.
We have made a prototype now time to refine it that's how R&D u make somethihg and then continue to improve it.

There are key areas like Metallurgy, Crystal blade, lack of test ber and precision tooling where we lack.
That's what holding back our engine.

Not saying ISRO is better than GTRE but Inputs from ISRO can help. The differnce between ISRO and other PSU is there work ethics and dedication to goals.

Also the previous government purposefully rigged our defence so there's that.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I think the answers is somewhere in between.
Yes Rocket engine is complex but not as complex as turbofan. Rocket engine are low efficency high power engines while Tubrofan are High efficiency endurance engine.
It's not like we can't make a turbofan, we have already made it. Our problem is that the engine isn't meeting our needs.
The engine currently produces some 85 KN force, while we need some 95 KN.
Also the engine is overweight compared to its counterpart and has performance issue at high Altitudes.

But look at it in a positive way we have made a decent tubofan in our first shot, its a incredible feat in itself.
American, Russia, Europe has 70 years of experience in making all kinds of engines so you have to consider that when comparing us to them.
We have made a prototype now time to refine it that's how R&D u make somethihg and then continue to improve it.

There are key areas like Metallurgy, Crystal blade, lack of test ber and precision tooling where we lack.
That's what holding back our engine.

Not saying ISRO is better than GTRE but Inputs from ISRO can help. The differnce between ISRO and other PSU is there work ethics and dedication to goals.

Also the previous government purposefully rigged our defence so there's that.

We are capable of making both rocket & jet engines. Our limitation with jet engine is about metallurgical knowhow.

 

[samsaptaka]

The trajectory of the Kaveri Engine programme suggests that Indian stakeholders have not appreciated the problems.

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/why-the-kaveri-engine-programme-is-failing-to-take-off