Kaveri Engine

[Indx TechStyle]

This designing goals of this "smaller" engine almost equal those western engines in the same class which were developed in 90s: M88-2, F404-IN20.

No they weren't. It was supposed to lift up a much lighter aircraft which needs significantly more thrust now.

Yes, only short of 400kg thrust and overweight 150kg in its prototype. That means there is serious problem within the design.

Dumbo, quoting revised requirements.

No, the problem is you already started to talk about the new prblem before fixing the old problem.

It has been the old problem prevailing in all Indian discussions as it is. The thermal creep in Kaveri is caused by limitation of material used.

Now, introduce me with your "new problem".

Another rhetoric: the R&D on new material should have started when the first Kaveri prototype was assembled, which means you have more than 20 years to deal with this "Greate Headache".

It's such a waste of time to debate with a low memory creature like you.

Requirements were revised, so was aircraft and so were specifications while development was underway.

 

[kunal1123]

India, France to hold talks on defence buys today | India News
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Updated: Aug 29, 2019, 5:49 IST
3-4 minutes
PARIS: Within a week of the Modi-Macron summit, India and France will hold a strategic dialogue to talk acquisition and development of defence equipment. NSA Ajit Doval will host his counterpart, Emmanuel Bonne in New Delhi on Thursday to take forward the decisions taken at the August 22 summit.

According to officials, on the table for the high-level discussion would be the next order for fighter aircraft, among other defence equipment.

France is keen to pick up another order of Rafale fighter jets after the first 36 are ready to be delivered. These would be on international bidding. The US also wants to hawk its F-21 aircraft, while Sweden is hoping to sell its Gripen.

Defence minister Rajnath Singh will be here in September for the hand over of the first Rafale. Indian pilots will be trained in France so it may be a while before the jet makes its way to India.

Of much greater significance and far more ambitious is a new India-France project to co-develop and co-build a next generation jet engine for use by India. The lead French defence company in the reckoning here is Safran. There is little clarity on how this will be developed in India, including agencies and companies to be involved. What is clear is that the project has been nicknamed INFRA. Modi may have been hinting at this when he said after his meeting with Macron here that India and France were building INFRA in several sectors.

If it happens, this would be momentous — there aren’t that many companies in the world that can build jet engines. If India does achieve the feat, it would go a long way in giving the country autonomy in defence purchases.

It is rumoured that the outgoing French ambassador to India, Alexander Ziegler may be joining Safran, making negotiations much less problematic. This kind of movement is fairly common among envoys who have served in India where they get get snapped up by the private sector to help navigate the opaque Indian system.

Doval has been the point-person in the Modi government to lead the discussion on defence acquisitions. The government's decision to set up the chief of defence staff, officials say, will go a long way to easing friction between the services both on inter-operability as well as streamlining acquisitions. Doval met with Bonne in Osaka on the sidelines of the G-20. The decision by both governments to hold a strategic dialogue so soon after a summit is a sign of the urgency which is invested in these decisions.

 

[IndianHawk]

Meanwhile silently DRDO is moving forward on SCB, Thermal coating tech etc. New laser drill for 5 Micro- meter holes , new electron guns for vapor density coating. Use of new alloys based on yittrium zirconium ect. Lot of advancement in building blocks.

 

[amit19]

India, France to hold talks on defence buys today | India News
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Updated: Aug 29, 2019, 5:49 IST
3-4 minutes
PARIS: Within a week of the Modi-Macron summit, India and France will hold a strategic dialogue to talk acquisition and development of defence equipment. NSA Ajit Doval will host his counterpart, Emmanuel Bonne in New Delhi on Thursday to take forward the decisions taken at the August 22 summit.

According to officials, on the table for the high-level discussion would be the next order for fighter aircraft, among other defence equipment.

France is keen to pick up another order of Rafale fighter jets after the first 36 are ready to be delivered. These would be on international bidding. The US also wants to hawk its F-21 aircraft, while Sweden is hoping to sell its Gripen.

Defence minister Rajnath Singh will be here in September for the hand over of the first Rafale. Indian pilots will be trained in France so it may be a while before the jet makes its way to India.

Of much greater significance and far more ambitious is a new India-France project to co-develop and co-build a next generation jet engine for use by India. The lead French defence company in the reckoning here is Safran. There is little clarity on how this will be developed in India, including agencies and companies to be involved. What is clear is that the project has been nicknamed INFRA. Modi may have been hinting at this when he said after his meeting with Macron here that India and France were building INFRA in several sectors.

If it happens, this would be momentous — there aren’t that many companies in the world that can build jet engines. If India does achieve the feat, it would go a long way in giving the country autonomy in defence purchases.

It is rumoured that the outgoing French ambassador to India, Alexander Ziegler may be joining Safran, making negotiations much less problematic. This kind of movement is fairly common among envoys who have served in India where they get get snapped up by the private sector to help navigate the opaque Indian system.

Doval has been the point-person in the Modi government to lead the discussion on defence acquisitions. The government's decision to set up the chief of defence staff, officials say, will go a long way to easing friction between the services both on inter-operability as well as streamlining acquisitions. Doval met with Bonne in Osaka on the sidelines of the G-20. The decision by both governments to hold a strategic dialogue so soon after a summit is a sign of the urgency which is invested in these decisions.

High priced rafale selection got justified only when french agreed to help us in making Kaveri workable and usable on fighter jets. This deal was done in considering some 'strategic partnership' understanding.
But Safran started showing 'greed' by quoting very very high price for Kaveri project. I hope Modi/Doval will fix this Safran in coming meeting(s) and get the deal done.

If Safran remains unmoved, lets cap the Rafale number to 36 ... YES ... 36 only and fast track Tejas mk2. It will be better to spend 30 billion on Tejas mk2 than just importing only Rafale.

 

[Armand2REP]

But Safran started showing 'greed'

I didn't know Safran was supposed to be a charity.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

I didn't know Safran was supposed to be a charity.

But the parents of Safran have already been paid with substatial expenses.

 

[IndianHawk]

I didn't know Safran was supposed to be a charity.

And IAF won't be buying rafale just to keep french employed. It also seems like charity isn't it.

 

[Deathstar]

I didn't know Safran was supposed to be a charity.

No ones asks for charity but fairness

 

[amit19]

I didn't know Safran was supposed to be a charity.

Sir, that is the point. Safran looking at Kaveri project as if its a charity if they do it in some xxx amount. Its not a charity. Its a part of offset package for BIGGER rafale orders ... as per the internal deal 'understanding'.

 

[Armand2REP]

Sir, that is the point. Safran looking at Kaveri project as if its a charity if they do it in some xxx amount. Its not a charity. Its a part of offset package for BIGGER rafale orders ... as per the internal deal 'understanding'.

Safran is not going to accept an offset that loses money. The only reason a company exists is to make a profit for the shareholders.

 

[amit19]

Safran is not going to accept an offset that loses money. The only reason a company exists is to make a profit for the shareholders.

Whatever talks were there about prospective Kaveri usage were for Tejas mk1a and mk2, Mig 29, etc, etc. Here Safran is not loosing money.
There were talks abt fitting Kaveri on indian Rafales as well. Here we can say Safran loose money. But its a negotiable point. Nobody forced this point.
In fact if Safran completes Kaveri project, there will be more rafales and more engine sales to which should make Safran shareholders happy.

I hope both Governments achieve some breakthrough in this.

 

[IndianHawk]

Something's up. Safran has picked up french ambassador to India .

Rumours are coming true!

 

[no smoking]

No they weren't. It was supposed to lift up a much lighter aircraft which needs significantly more thrust now.

No, that is mainly caused the overweight of LCA not the original designing goal of Kaveri. If we look at the key parameters of the engine itself: 81+KN, 1100kg, OPR-21.5:1, etc, it is the same level of M88 or F404, for a new beginner, that is quite ambitious.

Dumbo, quoting revised requirements.

Are you really dumb, or pretending to be dumb?


According to the following report: the original weight goal of Kaveri was 1100kg, when the first prototype of kaveri was produced before 1993, it was already overweighted up to 1423.78kg, as of today, the weight is still over 1200kg.


https://cag.gov.in/sites/default/fi..._Defence_Air_Force_and_Navy_16_2010_chap5.pdf


In 2001, the engine used to power the first flight of LCA was F404-GE-F2J3, the max thrust of this engine was 81.4kN, weight was between 1035kg – 1054kg. Using F404 as the engine of LCA prototype and replacing it with Kaveri later was the plan from beginning, it is hardly to believe that original goals of kaveri are lower than F404 engine. So, the original goal should be 81kn and 1100kg. That was also why Dr Mohan Rao claimed “short of 400kg thrust” in 2008.


The so called revised parameters are those parameters matching the F404-GE-IN20: 90KN which is exactly what the Kaveri with new “core” targets for.

It has been the old problem prevailing in all Indian discussions as it is. The thermal creep in Kaveri is caused by limitation of material used.

There are certainly a lot reports making such a claim. But since we all got brain, we need to look into detail how much this “limitation” is.


The Kaveri desired turbine inlet temperature was 1700k. Guess what is the temperature for F404 family: 1699.5K. This means India scientists believed that materials used in Kaveri should be equalised to F404 family.

Now, introduce me with your "new problem".

You need to answer the old question first.

It's such a waste of time to debate with a low memory creature like you.

Or it is because you just blindly accept whatever newspaper told you without understanding.

 

[Tridev123]

I would like to draw attention to one aspect of our air power. We have bought combat aircraft from Russia (Soviet Union) in large numbers and also from Western countries like France and the UK. But even when offered good fighters by the US we have not shown enthusiasm.

The history of US weapons sales to other countries reveals the desire of the US to tightly control the usage of its weapons by the recipient. Sanctions are enforced on buyers if they dare to offend the US. Any unknown Congressman or Senator can introduce a bill in the US legislature and ask for sanctions on any country. This reputation for being an unreliable arms supplier be devil's the US and discourages many from seeking American arms.

The reality is also that even now the US is the preeminent science and technological power in the world and has a lot to offer.

Coming to India, we have acquired transport and other non combat platforms like helicopters from the US. In recent years aircraft like the F16, F18 have been offered to us on seemingly generous terms but we have refrained from grabbing them. The reasons are quite obvious. We still do not trust the US enough to rely on them for cutting edge fighting systems.

The question then arises- when we do not trust them enough to buy combat aircraft should we trust their jet engines to power our indigenous fighters like the LCA Tejas. What if in a future war with Pakistan they suddenly stop supplying LCA engines and spare parts. Some Congressman could sanction India.

Again we have to consider if we have alternatives to the US engines. If we have no alternative to the GE404 or GE414 then we will be forced to depend on the US. It is a rather difficult situation.

Should we go full ahead and produce hundreds of lcamk1a and lcamk2 using American engines as the power plant or should we wait for the Kaveri engine to succeed no matter how long it takes. Should we trust the US?. Do we have any viable alternative.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

But even when offered good fighters by the US we have not shown enthusiasm.

They come with strings attached, simple is that.

In recent years aircraft like the F16, F18 have been offered to us on seemingly generous terms but we have refrained from grabbing them.

Things would have been different if they were offered 15-20 years ago.
For now, they will do nothing good except killing local projcets. They are old planes will become outdated by IAF standards in next 15-20 years. F-16 in less than 5 years from now!!

 

[Tridev123]

They come with strings attached, simple is that.

Things would have been different if they were offered 15-20 years ago.
For now, they will do nothing good except killing local projcets. They are old planes will become outdated by IAF standards in next 15-20 years. F-16 in less than 5 years from now!!

You have not answered the last and most important part of my post. Should we depend on US jet engines to power hundreds of our future fighters. If no, then what alternative do you recommend.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You have not answered the last and most important part of my post. Should we depend on US jet engines to power hundreds of our future fighters.

We don't have any other option. Only alternative is our own engine. Pay as much money they want to country who is willing to leak technology.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Chinese already have developed engines. WS10B equivalent to Al41F powers J20. Al41F is same as M88 in generation.

India also has engine Technology of Kaveri but Tejas has increased weight & made Kaveri less useful. However, Kaveri is working fine. It is Tejas's fault that it gained weight during development, not Kaveri's fault due to which Kaveri is not used on Tejas.

Chinese already do have a number of engines made in China. Similarly, India also has completed Kaveri. Read DRDO chief interview published recently to get confirmation on Kaveri.

As far as i know,their engine is not matured and has relatively less breakdown time conpared to 3rd gen western engine(Ex-GE404),short life span and inadequate thrust at variable altitude. The best example of their failure is the proposed Chinese engine for jf17 bl3 which was shot down by pakistanis and they will go with RD93MK,chinese have no option but to propagate to the world that they have matured the technology but their users only know what tragedy it would be to fly a chinese aircraft with a chinese engine in the combat.

Far from the reality in the second para. The kaveri didnt go on tejas due to overweight ,less thrust to weight, and failure to met the reliabilty(which as of now been met on the ground with the 58 hours of sustained test). Tejas grew in wt and demanded a ton more thrust than what kaveri was planned. And this is why the mk2 earlier was planned with same wt(6.5ton) with 9.8tons of thust.

 

[Tridev123]

We don't have any... other option. Only alternative is our own engine. Pay as much money they want to country who is willing to leak technology.

The entire effort to develop a usable turbofan engine in India has been disappointing because it is a case of so near yet so far. Having had 75% success but getting stuck at this point and running out of ideas.Was it because of
Inadequate funding - sometimes our financial allocation looks like a pittance
compared to the western powers and even China.
Zero competition - Depending only on GTRE was wrong. At least 2 separate
teams should have been working on the project. Each team would have a
different approach to the technical challenges and chances of success
might improve.
Did GTRE seek help from our Academic institutions for problem solving.
Could Indian industry have helped.
If it was deemed absolutely necessary should not a foreign technical
consultant have been engaged from the beginning.

Presently it seems that the Government has abandoned the effort to develop a suitable gas turbine engine for our aircraft. No fresh financial allocation has been made for GTRE. Even a road map is not visible. Only talk about offsets helping our engine development is heard. This approach is in contrast to the approach we see in China. Though they have not succeeded they have a focus and road map for jet engines development.

Why are we not able to replicate the ISRO model as regards the development of aero engines. ISRO rockets do fail but then they redouble efforts and eventually succeed.

 

[Chinmoy]

The entire effort to develop a usable turbofan engine in India has been disappointing because it is a case of so near yet so far. Having had 75% success but getting stuck at this point and running out of ideas.Was it because of
Inadequate funding - sometimes our financial allocation looks like a pittance
compared to the western powers and even China.
Zero competition - Depending only on GTRE was wrong. At least 2 separate
teams should have been working on the project. Each team would have a
different approach to the technical challenges and chances of success
might improve.
Did GTRE seek help from our Academic institutions for problem solving.
Could Indian industry have helped.
If it was deemed absolutely necessary should not a foreign technical
consultant have been engaged from the beginning.

Presently it seems that the Government has abandoned the effort to develop a suitable gas turbine engine for our aircraft. No fresh financial allocation has been made for GTRE. Even a road map is not visible. Only talk about offsets helping our engine development is heard. This approach is in contrast to the approach we see in China. Though they have not succeeded they have a focus and road map for jet engines development.

Why are we not able to replicate the ISRO model as regards the development of aero engines. ISRO rockets do fail but then they redouble efforts and eventually succeed.

I think you got trapped in a time capsule some where. The problem which GTRE faced with Kaveri could not be solved by any Indian industry or academic institute at present. Period. Nor a free flow of fund could solve that. A free flow of fund would only help in creating a JV engine like Shakti Turboshaft, not a whole indigenous engine.

Now don't even compare a rocket engine with a jet engine.