Kaveri Engine

[IndianHawk]

The entire effort to develop a usable turbofan engine in India has been disappointing because it is a case of so near yet so far. Having had 75% success but getting stuck at this point and running out of ideas.Was it because of
Inadequate funding - sometimes our financial allocation looks like a pittance
compared to the western powers and even China.
Zero competition - Depending only on GTRE was wrong. At least 2 separate
teams should have been working on the project. Each team would have a
different approach to the technical challenges and chances of success
might improve.
Did GTRE seek help from our Academic institutions for problem solving.
Could Indian industry have helped.
If it was deemed absolutely necessary should not a foreign technical
consultant have been engaged from the beginning.

Presently it seems that the Government has abandoned the effort to develop a suitable gas turbine engine for our aircraft. No fresh financial allocation has been made for GTRE. Even a road map is not visible. Only talk about offsets helping our engine development is heard. This approach is in contrast to the approach we see in China. Though they have not succeeded they have a focus and road map for jet engines development.

Why are we not able to replicate the ISRO model as regards the development of aero engines. ISRO rockets do fail but then they redouble efforts and eventually succeed.

Kaveri learning are being put to use with K9 and K10 program under development to power amca and mwf. See the video I posted above in thread. We are constantly making progress in material science for both core and afterburner .

Kaveri core will power our drones. It will also span marine engines for future warships of navy.

Mwf and amca will begin with f414 but eventually move on to either fully indegenios K9/k10 or atleast semi indegenios engine developed with France.

 

[Tridev123]

I think you got trapped in a time capsule some where. The problem which GTRE faced with Kaveri could not be solved by any Indian industry or academic institute at present. Period. Nor a free flow of fund could solve that. A free flow of fund would only help in creating a JV engine like Shakti Turboshaft, not a whole indigenous engine.

Now don't even compare a rocket engine with a jet engine.

Bro, you make it sound very depressing. Are we at a dead end with no light at the end of the tunnel.

As an insider in the aerospace ecosystem in our country you can give us some thing to cheer about. Come on, let us also hear some positive news about the Kaveri programme or its successor.

At the least let us pray for the Chinese to succeed in mass producing a reliable jet engine. The Americans will get alarmed as they do fear the Chinese and maybe will allow us to access aero engine technology. The US cannot take on the Chinese in Asia without our support. They are already overstretched.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Why are we not able to replicate the ISRO model as regards the development of aero engines. ISRO rockets do fail but then they redouble efforts and eventually succeed.

All good but ISRO's relative status among space agencies & strengths and shortingcomings are same as that of DRDO.

Case is different that "quality" there ends upto "it puts satellite in orbit" and over that very few countries have space programs.

Aero engines are much more difficult than rocket engines!!

 

[Assassin 2.0]

UPDATE........... ......
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[uoftotaku]

UPDATE........... ......
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The Kaveri core has been the number one problem since day one but GTRE has adamantly refused to consider redesign or replacement due to internal pride. The proposal to replace it with the M88 core has been on the table for years (pre-dating the Rafale offsets when then Snecma was approached as a consultant) as a quick fix solution to get the production line moving until a new core design can be developed.

 

[Bhurki]

The Kaveri core has been the number one problem since day one but GTRE has adamantly refused to consider redesign or replacement due to internal pride. The proposal to replace it with the M88 core has been on the table for years (pre-dating the Rafale offsets when then Snecma was approached as a consultant) as a quick fix solution to get the production line moving until a new core design can be developed.

Dependency on m88 core will again render us as import partners and grossly tie up are hands to the core's characteristics with little control on utlizing its variations.

 

[uoftotaku]

Dependency on m88 core will again render us as import partners and grossly tie up are hands to the core's characteristics with little control on utlizing its variations.

That would only be true if we simply stopped at that stage. The Snecma and now Safran offers both saw this only as a temporary quick fix. A completely new core design would be made together and integrated at a later stage.

But this is a complex task which takes years, so its a choice of either waiting with no production or starting production of the hybrid design and developing the replacement in parallel.

Its a very pragmatic solution to a difficult problem

 

[amit19]

story line is ... some 'unknown iaf' personels visited Safran facility and Safran told 'them' that "'discussions' are going on"


in short ... this is not a news. Some hawabaji by either iaf or Safran.

 

[no smoking]

At the least let us pray for the Chinese to succeed in mass producing a reliable jet engine. The Americans will get alarmed as they do fear the Chinese and maybe will allow us to access aero engine technology. The US cannot take on the Chinese in Asia without our support. They are already overstretched.

Even during the peak of cold war, US refused to share aero engine technology with her closest ally - Japan, what make you think American will help India on this because of Chinese threat. Besides, the scale and nature of Chinese threat is completely different from Soviet. The result of cold war is live or death issue for both side, the Sino-USA conflict is all about who get the largest piece from the cake.

 

[dude00720]

All good but ISRO's relative status among space agencies & strengths and shortingcomings are same as that of DRDO.

Case is different that "quality" there ends upto "it puts satellite in orbit" and over that very few countries have space programs.

Aero engines are much more difficult than rocket engines!!

Sir, could you be kind enough to refer some link, which clearly explains
a) Design of Kaveri engine.
b) Why wet thrust is low?
c) What exactly is the metallurgy issue?

I work with a team of highly talented individuals. Some of us are willing to research this for free and help in whatever way, we can. We have enough brains in this country to help. We just need the problem system identified.

 

[IndianHawk]

Sir, could you be kind enough to refer some link, which clearly explains
a) Design of Kaveri engine.
b) Why wet thrust is low?
c) What exactly is the metallurgy issue?

I work with a team of highly talented individuals. Some of us are willing to research this for free and help in whatever way, we can. We have enough brains in this country to help. We just need the problem system identified.

Problems are not conceptual Theory is clear and correct. Main issues are metallurgy used and temperature limits imposed by material available now.

These issues are being sorted already with recent developments in metallurgy in country. It's not a brainstorming matter it's a do and do more matter.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Problems are not conceptual Theory is clear and correct. Main issues are metallurgy used and temperature limits imposed by material available now.

These issues are being sorted already with recent developments in metallurgy in country. It's not a brainstorming matter it's a do and do more matter.

HAL chief once said that we have capabilities to copy su-30 engine we have gained that much experience from overhauling and all but we do respect ownership rights of the concerned party unlike Chinese.
On paper we can build su-30 engines from scratch but the real issues is of materials which are used to build this stuff such as crystal blades.
Real issue is we seriously lack testing facilities.
Testing alone takes years.
It's quite amazing how iran is able to copy American engine for it's indigenous jet. Tho that's old technology but still.

It's time for india to leave this copyright bullshit and start copying some stuff.

 

[IndianHawk]

HAL chief once said that we have capabilities to copy su-30 engine we have gained that much experience from overhauling and all but we do respect ownership rights of the concerned party unlike Chinese.
On paper we can build su-30 engines from scratch but the real issues is of materials which are used such as crystal blades.

Chinese have support of Russian to copy engines.
If Chinese stole Russian tech why would russian sell them su35??

We import raw material for su30 engine for Russia
And then manufacture it.

DRDO has stated previously that domestic blades have already surpassed the level of sophistication that al31 blades have. We are following western standards for kaveri. But we need more advancement in lesser drilling , Thermal layer coating etc. And we need a lot more practical tests.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Chinese have support of Russian to copy engines.
If Chinese stole Russian tech why would russian sell them su35??

We import raw material for su30 engine for Russia
And then manufacture it.

DRDO has stated previously that domestic blades have already surpassed the level of sophistication that al31 blades have. We are following western standards for kaveri. But we need more advancement in lesser drilling , Thermal layer coating etc. And we need a lot more practical tests.

If we can make a thermal layer coating then kaveri engine can become operational for drones at least because vibrations are solved by Saffron heating issues remain
Russians don't like Chinese copying there stuff and Chinese bought su-35 to learn about its thrust vector technology every one knows this even Russians.

It looks like this time they are trying to take some measures to stop others from copying.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sputni.../201709181057496814-s400-turkey-secrets-safe/

All the fears about the leak of technology are greatly exaggerated, especially so far as anti-aircraft missiles are concerned," Khodarenko said. "Even if they were to disassemble the system down to the last bolt to try to pull out some military secrets, they would still be left with nothing. Besides, this system will be delivered to China, and we can be sure that they will disassemble it."

Russians don't have a choice when it comes to Chinese. Shenyang WS-10 powers almost all copies of su-30. They don't have the money and Chinese are there biggest trading partners. They cannot stop selling them systems and some reports states Chinese keep buying some Russian systems to make sure Russian aviation industry is strong.
Russia cried a little. This the real threat not only Russia arms them but this copying stuff even gives Chinese more lethal teeth of development of capabilities and then they arm Pakistan with those cheap copies.

What Russia can do if we start copying there su-30 engine now. They can do nothing and will come back with some more technology. Chinese are copying there stuff for a long time now. But Chinese engine have pathetic reliability even Pakistan rejected Chinese engine for J-17.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...er-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9

 

[IndianHawk]

If we can make a thermal layer coating then kaveri engine can become operational for drones at least because vibrations are solved by Saffron heating issues remain
Russians don't like Chinese copying there stuff and Chinese bought su-35 to learn about its thrust vector technology every one knows this even Russians.

It looks like this time they are trying to take some measures to stop others from copying.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sputni.../201709181057496814-s400-turkey-secrets-safe/

All the fears about the leak of technology are greatly exaggerated, especially so far as anti-aircraft missiles are concerned," Khodarenko said. "Even if they were to disassemble the system down to the last bolt to try to pull out some military secrets, they would still be left with nothing. Besides, this system will be delivered to China, and we can be sure that they will disassemble it."

Russians don't have a choice when it comes to Chinese. Shenyang WS-10 powers almost all copies of su-30. They don't have the money and Chinese are there biggest trading partners. They cannot stop selling them systems and some reports states Chinese keep buying some Russian systems to make sure Russian aviation industry is strong.
Russia cried a little. This the real threat not only Russia arms them but this copying stuff even gives Chinese more lethal teeth of development of capabilities and then they arm Pakistan with those cheap copies.

What Russia can do if we start copying there su-30 engine now. They can do nothing and will come back with some more technology. Chinese are copying there stuff for a long time now. But Chinese engine have pathetic reliability even Pakistan rejected Chinese engine for J-17.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bu...er-jet-which-beijing-stole-from-moscow-2018-9

I think at present Kaveri has already enough power for aura / drone. Improvements are needed to match f404.

 

[no smoking]

Russians don't like Chinese copying there stuff and Chinese bought su-35 to learn about its thrust vector technology every one knows this even Russians.

Really? Chinese got first Su-35 in Sep 2017 and in Nov 2018, 13 months later, their J-10B already started to fly with WS-10 TVC in air show. Wow, Chinese scientists are not that good.


There is some techs in Su-35 that Chinese wants, but not TVC.

What Russia can do if we start copying there su-30 engine now. They can do nothing and will come back with some more technology.

Russians will cut their key chemical ingredients supply and stop the maintenance service for the whole production line. The Indian factory will stop working within couple of months. This is how big guys control their foreign partners.

 

[Bhurki]

I think at present Kaveri has already enough power for aura / drone. Improvements are needed to match f404.

Not sure about drone application. Last i heard about aura, mtow was to be around 15 tonnes. Considering that dry variant will be used, military thrust of about 60kN is required. Kaveri hasn't achieved that yet.

 

[no smoking]

Sir, could you be kind enough to refer some link, which clearly explains

Better to read some scientific papers instead newspapers if you want to get the truth because:
1. The journalists generally lack the basic knowledge about what they are writing;
2. The scientists are like everyone else: always trying to blame others.



[/QUOTE]I work with a team of highly talented individuals. Some of us are willing to research this for free and help in whatever way, we can. We have enough brains in this country to help.[/QUOTE]

The modern jet engine is so complex that requires over hundreds industrial departments' co-operation. It is not the kind of issues that can be fixed by a group of talented people.

I suggest you to read some historic book of US/Soviet/UK jet engine development, and then compare them with Indian development, you will have a better idea what the problem is.

 

[dude00720]

Better to read some scientific papers instead newspapers if you want to get the truth because:
1. The journalists generally lack the basic knowledge about what they are writing;
2. The scientists are like everyone else: always trying to blame others.

I work with a team of highly talented individuals. Some of us are willing to research this for free and help in whatever way, we can. We have enough brains in this country to help.[/QUOTE]

The modern jet engine is so complex that requires over hundreds industrial departments' co-operation. It is not the kind of issues that can be fixed by a group of talented people.

I suggest you to read some historic book of US/Soviet/UK jet engine development, and then compare them with Indian development, you will have a better idea what the problem is.[/QUOTE]

Well, it does look like, most of us dont quite understand the issues. Reading books is ok. But, if we dont know where we stand today, very hard to work on a solution.

And anyone who is saying problem is not conceptual, should understand, nothing is unsolvable. But, it depends, Anyhow, My team will start working on the requirements in the near future. We will directly explore electric. Fuel engines will anyhow die by 2035.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

a) Design of Kaveri engine.
b) Why wet thrust is low?
c) What exactly is the metallurgy issue?

We need single crystal nickel based superalloys to survive continoual and repeated thrust of aero engine.
Right now, thermal creep & hot corrosion are what make our engine deficient of thrust.