Kaveri Engine

[no smoking]

If you could have reverse engineered CFM56 into a fighter engine yet couldn't reverse it into a domestic airline engine tells the whole story.

Oh, please, you really proved that you know nothing about these: 1. Before C919, there is no Chinese indegenous civilian plane big enough for CFM56 copy model; 2. Air force can risk her pilots for the immature products, but no civlian companies can put over 100 passengers on a plane with such a risky engine.

WS-10 did not achieve its final configuration until it became WS-10A before 2002. Reverse engineering of AL-31F had started long before that.

No, the WS-10A did use some of AL-31F technologies, but the main structure and tech route are still on CFM56, that is why it is called WS-10 not WS-11 or WS-12. The first time that Chinese got AL31F was 1997，there is no way that Chinese can reverse engineer AL-31F within 5 years. Instead, Russians have to change their AL31F structure to fit J-10 body which was designed for WS10 originally.

 

[Holy Triad]

Rajnath’s Paris Visit Puts Spotlight On Indian Jet Engine’s Fight For Survival


After a day centred around the milestone Rafale handover to the Indian Air Force, topped off handily with a flight in the IAF’s first Rafale jet, Indian defence minister Rajnath Singh today continued his official engagements in France with a visit to Safran’s engine building facility (formerly Snecma) in Villaroche near Paris. The minister was given the usual protocol briefings by Safran executives on the company’s many proposals for India — chiefly a near collapsed venture to rescue the Indian DRDO’s Kaveri jet engine with a techno-financial infusion from Safran.


Livefist can confirm that the Indian defence minister was briefed about the Safran-DRDO partnership proposal in general terms today, but no mention was made about where things currently stand. While talks between Safran and the DRDO have apparently reached an impasse over cost and the modalities of execution, it is clear that any next steps will require a political decision to move forward.

In a presentation to the visiting Indian defence minister Safran CEO Olivier Andries said, “India should provide an attractive business environment and not terrorise us with its tax and customs rules.” He also shared plans for the company to invest $150 million towards training and maintenance of the engines that will power the IAF’s Rafales.



https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/10/rajnaths-paris-visit-puts-spotlight-on-indian-jet-engines-fight-for-survival.html

 

[amit19]

Rajnath’s Paris Visit Puts Spotlight On Indian Jet Engine’s Fight For Survival


After a day centred around the milestone Rafale handover to the Indian Air Force, topped off handily with a flight in the IAF’s first Rafale jet, Indian defence minister Rajnath Singh today continued his official engagements in France with a visit to Safran’s engine building facility (formerly Snecma) in Villaroche near Paris. The minister was given the usual protocol briefings by Safran executives on the company’s many proposals for India — chiefly a near collapsed venture to rescue the Indian DRDO’s Kaveri jet engine with a techno-financial infusion from Safran.


Livefist can confirm that the Indian defence minister was briefed about the Safran-DRDO partnership proposal in general terms today, but no mention was made about where things currently stand. While talks between Safran and the DRDO have apparently reached an impasse over cost and the modalities of execution, it is clear that any next steps will require a political decision to move forward.

In a presentation to the visiting Indian defence minister Safran CEO Olivier Andries said, “India should provide an attractive business environment and not terrorise us with its tax and customs rules.” He also shared plans for the company to invest $150 million towards training and maintenance of the engines that will power the IAF’s Rafales.



https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/10/rajnaths-paris-visit-puts-spotlight-on-indian-jet-engines-fight-for-survival.html

https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...on-indian-jet-engines-fight-for-survival.html
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Livefist can confirm that the Indian defence minister was briefed about the Safran-DRDO partnership proposal in general terms today, but no mention was made about where things currently stand. While talks between Safran and the DRDO have apparently reached an impasse over cost and the modalities of execution, it is clear that any next steps will require a political decision to move forward.
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current status of Safran-DRDO kaveri project

 

[amit19]

Safran presentation to rajnath singh ... presentation date is October 2019.

ooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! what am seeing :biggrin2:

 

[Agraj]

So even if we strike a deal with Safran for AMCA engine,or kaveri modification,it's going to take 1-2 years for infrastructure development,and proper R&D to begin in about another 1 year at the least.so that makes it 2023. pretty good on paper,I would trust the French any day over the British and Yanks.

 

[Armand2REP]

So even if we strike a deal with Safran for AMCA engine,or kaveri modification,it's going to take 1-2 years for infrastructure development,and proper R&D to begin in about another 1 year at the least.so that makes it 2023. pretty good on paper,I would trust the French any day over the British and Yanks.

You should just buy the engines we are making for the SCAF. I am sure they will be more than enough power for AMCA.

 

[Flying Dagger]

View attachment 39242

Safran presentation to rajnath singh ... presentation date is October 2019.

ooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! what am seeing :biggrin2:

If what is written is true and can be get in written with detailed proposal we should definitely go for it.. Even after spending billions on buying GE engine they won't give us anything This is much better atleast even joint venture with us having complete control over manufacturing it will be great.

 

[Agraj]

You should just buy the engines we are making for the SCAF. I am sure they will be more than enough power for AMCA.

why should we ? everything comes with conditions and Strings attached.we as a nation dont wanna delve into this vicious cycle all over again.

 

[Flying Dagger]

You should just buy the engines we are making for the SCAF. I am sure they will be more than enough power for AMCA.

Which country do you belong to ?

 

[ForigenSanghi]

View attachment 39242

Safran presentation to rajnath singh ... presentation date is October 2019.

ooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! what am seeing :biggrin2:

"India is the sole country in the world to whom such a transfer has been proposed"
No shit. Since we are the only suckers in the whole wide world who are planning to manufacture 700 new jets without an engine at hand.

Every other major fighter Jet manufacturing country has its own engine variants and we should too (attained through traversing the full learning curve). There will soon come a day when buying stuff from Russia and France wont cut it anymore when we have to compete against the US and china.

You should just buy the engines we are making for the SCAF. I am sure they will be more than enough power for AMCA.

Not a good Idea to keep such dependence on a foreign country, especially now that we have the money to develop our own tech. What if we get sanctioned by the EU 10-20 years down the line?

 

[amit19]

...........................................

 

[Megalomaniac]

Don't fall for it or else India will regret. Kaveri revival experience has taught us very good lesson. BTW cerramic composite temperature needs to go beyond 2000 degrees for acceptance.

 

[Megalomaniac]

Which country do you belong to ?

He belongs to France if I am not wrong. That's why he is advocating.

 

[Armand2REP]

why should we ? everything comes with conditions and Strings attached.we as a nation dont wanna delve into this vicious cycle all over again.

If you think that you have the material sciences to build a next gen fighter engine then by all means go for it. The Chinese tried and killed most of their engineering team.

 

[Agraj]

If you think that you have the material sciences to build a next gen fighter engine then by all means go for it. The Chinese tried and killed most of their engineering team.

Developing a high thrust low bypass turbofan doesnt happen in a day,it takes years of effort,expertise and knowledge which doesnt come from a texbook or copy pasta.The area of expertise of such said engines is with merely 4-5 organisation.and here lies the problem,India can keep doing what its doing with Kaveri,with halts and hiccups with no end real time frame in mind,or we can take a detour,learn from Safran,and apply there expertise and knowledge substantially cutting short the time required for building a fully Indigenous engine for AMCA and LCA.If we go with US/Brits theres always a looming possibility of sanctions,full TOT,after sales issues,spare parts etc we are not going with Russia,as there engines are good on paper only.Safran is the only way to go,and if they are willing for TOT,then I dont think GOI will say no.

 

[Armand2REP]

Developing a high thrust low bypass turbofan doesnt happen in a day,it takes years of effort,expertise and knowledge which doesnt come from a texbook or copy pasta.The area of expertise of such said engines is with merely 4-5 organisation.and here lies the problem,India can keep doing what its doing with Kaveri,with halts and hiccups with no end real time frame in mind,or we can take a detour,learn from Safran,and apply there expertise and knowledge substantially cutting short the time required for building a fully Indigenous engine for AMCA and LCA.If we go with US/Brits theres always a looming possibility of sanctions,full TOT,after sales issues,spare parts etc we are not going with Russia,as there engines are good on paper only.Safran is the only way to go,and if they are willing for TOT,then I dont think GOI will say no.

There is no learning from Safran or any other engine manufacturer. The technology you need is not transferable because it is material sciences. If you do not have the materials to make those high temp blades you are never going to develop the engines you need and you can't ToT it because it is a strategic technology no company is allowed to give. The offer from Safran is that they will build the hot section and you can build your engine on top of that. That is the best offer any engine maker can give because they aren't allowed to do more.

 

[Agraj]

The offer from Safran is that they will build the hot section and you can build your engine on top of that. That is the best offer any engine maker can give

Yes,all we need right now.Clearly we are late to the 5th gen party,and if we dont start anytime soon we are gonna miss the bus.In around 10 years time US CHIN RUS FRA will be working on prototypes of 6th gen Aircraft and we dont wanna be stuck on engine development forever.A lot needs to change in Kaveri management though,be it workplace,ethics incentives,fresh blood,basically it needs a breath of fresh air...things have started,slow,but started eventually,and with Safran I think we will be heading towards the right direction.We can achieve AMCA protoype by 2024-25 while we work on the engine,and IOC around 2030-32

 

[AnantS]

exactly , the ppt shown should be just compared to pre sales hot air pitch, where contendor promises moon in carefully but glossy language and ppt to customer executives. The gotcha's are always in details when actual contract is signed

 

[Imaxxx]

If you think that you have the material sciences to build a next gen fighter engine then by all means go for it. The Chinese tried and killed most of their engineering team.

If that statement was meant to convey futility, you will do well to remember the road to the current state of India's technological development is littered with the corpses of naysayers. Unlike the dodo that couldn't evolve and died a Darwinian death, in the Indian context what was once written off by its detractors as a dodo, is not just alive but thriving spectacularly. A paradigm shift has occurred - it has transformed from "they can't do it" to "they are not doing it fast enough" - the doubt of capability has long been put to rest. The only critique is vitesse, not echec. Today even its strongest critics in India and outside don't question its ability to deliver - for most of us here there was never a doubt.

While the western mind looks for quick wins and instant gratification, it is unable to reconcile with our concept of time. Park your predictions for the future - in my experience such words don't age well.

 

[no smoking]

The Chinese tried and killed most of their engineering team.

May I know which engineering team was killed by what engine accident? Can you please provide your source?

I just wonder how the engine can kill MOST OF THE ENGINEERING TEAM, does the Chinese ask their engineer to fly the J-11 equip with WS-10 prototype?